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Polish mathematicians who solved the Enigma machine



Prince 15 | 592    
2 Feb 2009  #1

Bronze monument to the three cryptologists, erected in 2007 before the Poznań Castle

bronze


Lori 4 | 118    
3 Feb 2009  #2

Thank you for the information in this posting. I knew the story, but didn't know about the monument in Poznań. I hope to see it next summer.
noimmigration    
3 Feb 2009  #4

Bletchly park - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bletchley_Park

And it was also the british who captured the enigma machines

Colossus - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer
szarlotka 8 | 2,210    
3 Feb 2009  #5

And it was also the british who captured the enigma machines

The use of the word also implies that you think that the British played the major role in cracking the enigma cryptography. Not true. Without the work of the Polish mathematicians they would nt have had the head start they needed. Subsequent variations of the code were decyphered by Bletchley Park.

Another link

chc60.fgcu.edu/EN/HistoryDetail.aspx?c=1
noimmigration    
3 Feb 2009  #6

Without the british there would have been no enigma machines to crack. :)
cjjc 29 | 408    
3 Feb 2009  #7

How is that then?
noimmigration    
3 Feb 2009  #8

we captured the enigma machines to study. We captured them through fighting, something the Poles did little of during the war.
Easy_Terran 3 | 309    
3 Feb 2009  #9

Yeah, they mostly seat in the bunkers waiting silently for that day when they will be able to migrate to the UK.
polam 5 | 11    
3 Feb 2009  #10

we captured the enigma machines to study. We captured them through fighting, something the poles did little of during the war.

That stupid statement would be similar to my stating, from an American perspective, the British did very little fighting, either.
Wroclaw 45 | 5,409    
3 Feb 2009  #11

The debate is not on who captured the machines, but on who decoded them.
cjjc 29 | 408    
3 Feb 2009  #12

noimmigration

Y'know, 5 mins into my reply to you I gave up. I realised that even if I do explain some things to you and gave you examples of how Polish soldiers fought like courageous heroes, you will not listen because you are basically an idiot.

It's a real shame to see such a waste of a brain.

The debate is not on who captured the machines, but on who decoded them.

True. Noted. I should have known better.

:)

That stupid statement would be similar to my stating, from an American perspective, the British did very little fighting, either.

Please go to Random Chat.
osiol 55 | 3,926    
3 Feb 2009  #13

Trouble is, although the whole thing was a combined effort to beat a common enemy, some of the descendants of those from all parties involved have to try to prove how big their -------s are.
cjjc 29 | 408    
3 Feb 2009  #14

Why of course.
polishcanuck 7 | 462    
4 Feb 2009  #15

Polish mathematicians who solved the Enigma machine

Sadly, here in Canada we are never taught this. People learn that the British did all the deciphering and there is no mention of the Poles' role.
Easy_Terran 3 | 309    
4 Feb 2009  #16

Watch the movie with Kate Winslett. There are sure Poles involved.
As the traitors.
OP Prince 15 | 592    
4 Feb 2009  #17

After the Yalta there was effort on West to make Polish contribution in WWII smaller.

The facts are different:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomba_(cryptography)

The bomba, or bomba kryptologiczna (Polish for "bomb" or "cryptologic bomb") was a special-purpose machine designed about October 1938 by Polish Cipher Bureau cryptologist Marian Rejewski to break German Enigma-machine ciphers.

Up to July 25, 1939, the Poles had been breaking Enigma messages for over six and a half years without telling their French and British allies.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclometer

The cyclometer was a cryptologic device designed, "probably in 1934 or 1935," by Marian Rejewski of the Polish Cipher Bureau's German section (BS-4) to facilitate decryption of German Enigma ciphertext

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_catalog_(cryptology)

The card catalog, or "catalog of characteristics," in cryptography, was a system designed by Polish Cipher Bureau mathematician-cryptologist Marian Rejewski, and first completed about 1935 or 1936, to facilitate decrypting German Enigma ciphers

So it was before WWII.

Times has changed and there are results:

enigma from poland

Plaque at Bletchley Park, unveiled 2002. English side reads: "This plaque commemorates the work of Marian Rejewski, Jerzy Różycki and Henryk Zygalski, mathematicians of the Polish intelligence service, in first breaking the Enigma code

I knew the story, but didn't know about the monument in Poznań. I hope to see it next summer.

Picture made form different spots

Poznań

poznan enigma

:) Of course there is Różycki on this monument.

When we look on changes in history. British start to admit that Poles were first and it is only becuase of Polish help they were able to work on next enigma versions.

Without Polish mathematicians Aliess would have been beaten durring WWII.

Knoledge about most German plans or operations was very useful. In many battles allies were well prepared because of knowledge of German plans.
frd 7 | 1,399    
4 Feb 2009  #18

maybe they would maybe they wouldn't.. surely it was a combined effort as someone wisely stated, and there's no room for what-ifs. Is bragging about who was better in smth and who was not that important to you? does it make you feel better? It's interesting history, not a mean to humiliate others...
joepilsudski 26 | 1,394    
4 Feb 2009  #19

A very good post, which helped me learn something of history.
Seanus 15 | 19,748    
4 Feb 2009  #20

Yeah, ingenious the way they did it. Some say 'necessity is the mother of invention'. Poland needed this strategic advantage.

Was there a Jewish conspiracy here, Joe? Just kidding ;)
OP Prince 15 | 592    
4 Feb 2009  #21

Well War is long time ago finished and it is good that without political or propaganda background we can see some facts in true light.
Seanus 15 | 19,748    
4 Feb 2009  #22

Nice thread, Prince. Setting the record straight :)

Any other Polish inventions you want to post a thread on and raise awareness?
OP Prince 15 | 592    
4 Feb 2009  #23

ny other Polish inventions you want to post a thread on and raise awareness?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL.37_£oś

The PZL.37 £oś (Polish: moose) was a Polish twin-engine medium bomber, used in the Invasion of Poland in 1939. Thanks to the laminar-flow wingit was one of the most modern bombers in the world before World War II.

The PZL.37 was designed in the mid-1930s at the PZL factory in Warsaw by Jerzy Dąbrowski.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7TP

The 7TP was the Polish light tank of the Second World War. A development of the British Vickers 6-ton, it was significantly better armed than its most common opponents, the German Panzer I and Panzer II.

Seanus 15 | 19,748    
4 Feb 2009  #24

Impressive stuff, Prince. It makes for good reading. There is a tank in the middle of Gliwice, it may be the 7TP.
OP Prince 15 | 592    
4 Feb 2009  #25

What is more: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tank_rifle,_model_35

Karabin przeciwpancerny wzór 35 (abbreviated "kb ppanc wz. 35"; "anti-tank rifle, model 35"), was a Polish 7.92 mm anti-tank rifle used by the Polish Army during the Polish Defensive War of 1939. It was also known by its code name, kb Urugwaj (kb Ur), or by the name of its designer, Józef Maroszek.

The effective range was 300 metres and the weapon was effective against all German tanks of the period (the Panzer I, II and III, as well as the Czech-made LT-35 and LT-38) at 100 meters. At up to 400 meters it could destroy all lightly-armored vehicles. It could penetrate 15 mm of armor, sloped at 30° at 300 m distance, or 33 mm of armor at 100 m. Interestingly, an Italian manual stated maximum penetration as 40 mm.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_mine_detector

The Mine detector (Polish) Mark I was a metal detector for landmines developed during World War II in the winter of 1941/1942 by Polish lieutenant Józef Kosacki.

" The Polish detector had two coils, one of which was connected to an oscillator which generated an oscillating current of an acoustic frequency. The other coil was connected to an amplifier and a telephone. When the coils came into proximity to a metallic object the balance between the coils was upset and the telephone reported a signal. The equipment weighed just under 30 pounds [14 kilograms] and could be operated by one man. The Polish detector saw service throughout the war and the Mark 4c version was still used by the British Army until 1995. "

-Mike Croll, The History of Landmines

Wroclaw Boy    
31 Jan 2015  #26

Merged: Breaking the Enigma code

I recently watched The Imitation Game (superb film), but I'm a little confused as to how accurate it actually is.
imdb.com/title/tt2084970/?ref_=tt_rec_tt

I was under the impression that the Poles originally broke the Enigma with their Bombe machine. There is one reference to the Polish in the film but thats it.

I'm sure there will be a few people here who know the history/truth on this subject better that I.
frd 7 | 1,399    
31 Jan 2015  #27

I like how wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine describes both the Polish role and the British role, I feel like both were substantial. There's a monument at Bletchley Park for Polish mathematicians - which many Poles seem to forget about. I also feel like inclusion of any "Polish" specific information in the movie would make it overcomplicated. Movies are supposed to tell a story and stay coherent throughout.

I also feel like the movie was more about Alan Turing, than about Breaking Enigma itself. It's good he got posthumously cleared out of anything that was staining his name, shame it was so late.

I actually feel like the part where Turing mentioned Polish mathematicians slightly forced. Like "lets hope this will be enough for all the whiners". It all would feel slightly more consistent without that.
johnny reb 14 | 2,283    
31 Jan 2015  #28

Let me para prase some of that.

The Poles did break the code of the Enigma first.
The earliest success against the German military Enigma was by the Polish Cipher Bureau.
In the winter of 1932-33, Polish mathematician Marian Rejewski deduced the pattern of wiring inside the three rotating wheels of the Enigma machine.
In a major breakthrough Rejewski invented a method for finding out from each intercepted German transmission the positions in which the wheels had started at the beginning of the message.

Poland was able to read encrypted German messages from 1933 to 1939.
Could it the movie was more based around Bletchley Park after that in 1940 ?
In 1940 changes were made to the Enigma system which eliminated what Rejewski had discovered in the starting positions.
Bletchley Park in 1940 the code breakers continued from there to break the Germans codes.
I haven't seen the movie yet but surely will.

Wouldn't let me edit para phrase.

I read thru this thread and didn't see where the French were mentioned for their part.
Rejewski was helped by photographs received from the French secret service showing pages of
an Enigma operating manual for September and October 1932.
That had to have been a HUGE help in breaking the code.
Roger5 2 | 1,505    
1 Feb 2015  #29

In 1940 changes were made to the Enigma system which eliminated what Rejewski had discovered in the starting positions.

Yes, many people forget this, although the work done earlier was invaluable to later efforts.

Could it the movie was more based around Bletchley Park after that in 1940 ?

Exactly. A lot of Poles got upset with the film, but for another reason, which I won't tell you. No spoilers here.

I haven't seen the movie yet but surely will.

Look out for a brief shot of Mick Jagger (one of the producers) in a mess scene.




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