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Are Silesians people German/Germanic?



JollyRomek 7 | 481    
10 Apr 2015  #61

Logical fallacy.

So you are saying that Dutch is just a German dialect because Germans can understand it? Same as Poles can understand Silesian so it must be a Polish dialect, nothing more?

I was sure Silesians had been fighting against their Germans overlords in 1920/21 to became Poles.

They fought their "German overlords" by voting yes (in most cities / towns) to remain part of Germany? Now that seems strange to me.


Crow 138 | 5,830    
10 Apr 2015  #62

You mean the way Mother Russia is showing her love to her children in Ukraine at the moment?

You know that Russia isn`t responsible there. Neither the Ukrainians. Conflict have its historical background. But, they both have their mistakes. Yes, they should found way of love.

Or how Mother Serbia went on a killing spree in Kosovo, Bosnia and Croatia to -

Kosovo? Its not example for this story. There on Kosovo, Albanian national minority turn to terrorism in order to expel native Serbians and then rebelled against Serbian state in order to create Greater Albania. When Serbian state reacted NATO openly attacked Serbs to help secede Kosovo from Serbia.

In Bosnia and Croatia, situation was similar to Ukraine. Those are complex regions, founded not by one single people but more. In Bosnia and in Croatia, Serbs were people that ruled and created those states/regions since their beginnings, side by side with other sides. We needed negotiations about borders but Germany and then EU cut political dialogue and pushed us in bloody Civil War. So, Serbs were just one side in conflict in war they didn`t start and, Serbs were biggest victim and losers of that Civil War. Problem is that NATO and EU leading powers, for their political agenda labeled Serbs as bad guys, while being themselves sides in conflict, created Greater Croatia and Muslim Sharia ruled Bosnia.

I think the Silesian people are well able to decide for themselves what they need and want without the "motherly love" of your "slavic kind".

We Serbs would just tell to Silesians how are Anglos and Germanics treacherous partners and that would be enough to prevent penetration of anti-Slavic ideas in Silesians.
JollyRomek 7 | 481    
10 Apr 2015  #63

anti-Slavic ideas in Silesians.

You see. That's the problem, or your problem. Nobody speaks of anti-anything. That's something only in your imagination. If the Silesian people want to speak their own language, it does not mean that they are anti-polish or anti-slavic. If they voted to be part of Germany, it does not mean that they hate Poland.

You are displaying something that leads back to Russia. "Don't want to be part of the Union so you are against us" instead of just accepting the fact that sometimes people like to make their own decisions.
Crow 138 | 5,830    
10 Apr 2015  #64

JollyRomek - You see.

you see, west of Europe won`t get a single peace of Slavic land. Everything would be explained to Silesians and they, being children of Slavia, would understand.

Also, if west of Europe continue to insist on meddling in Slavic world, things may reverse and Slavic world may start to meddling in situatioon on the west of Europe. You know, you don`t have quite strong democracy there. Maybe we can help.

Please stick to the topic - all the mostly off-topic posts will be binned
Vox - | 177    
10 Apr 2015  #65

So you are saying that Dutch is just a German dialect

Do you even know what a logical fallacy is? the fact Dutch is not a dialect has nothing to do with the fact that Silesian is a dialect. Connection you are trying to make between those two facts is in fact a logical fallacy.

They fought their "German overlords" by voting yes (in most cities / towns) to remain part of Germany?

Are not aware of the fact that Silesians organized uprising to join Poland? Consult Wikipedia.
JollyRomek 7 | 481    
10 Apr 2015  #66

the fact Dutch is not a dialect has nothing to do with the fact that Silesian is a dialect. Connection you are trying to make between those two facts is in fact a logical fallacy.

It was you who said -

a Polish native speaker that he can understand Silesian without difficulty. It means Silesian is in fact a dialect of the Polish language

- So I as a native German understand Dutch and following your logic, Dutch must be a dialect of German.

Come up with something substantial. You bore me.........

Are not aware of the fact that Silesians organized uprising to join Poland?

Sure, A "joint Silesian uprising against the Germans". That is why the Ruch Ultras still hang up their "Oberschlesien" banner. Because they hate their German roots so much. Again.........don't bore me.
Crow 138 | 5,830    
10 Apr 2015  #68

no questions. Everything is clear

Pro-Germanic `plebiscite` organized in a region that was historically exposed to violent Germanziation means nothing. Plus, region don`t belong only to Silesians but to all Slavs.

If that plebiscite really occurred, Poland is for sure already targeted by EU. Beware Poles.
JollyRomek 7 | 481    
10 Apr 2015  #69

to violent Germanziation

Any examples you want to share with us? As far as I remember Silesians chose to vote to remain as part of Germany due to the economic progress and the rather high standard of living back in the day. They didn't vote yes because they were forced to do so.

Unless you have some facts you want us to discuss?
Crow 138 | 5,830    
10 Apr 2015  #70

Unless you have some facts you want us to discuss?

alright. When started Drang Nach Osten? When started pressure on Slavs in what is today`s Silesia?

If that pressure started 500 years ago or even earlier, you should wait another 500 years that people live free in Slavic Poland and then you can expect realistic plebiscite.
Vox - | 177    
10 Apr 2015  #71

Come up with something substantial. You bore me.........

Jolly, I bore you because you are too stupid to understand what I'm telling you and you don't even know what a logical fallacy is. What more you didn't even bother to check it up. In fact Silesian is a dialect and fact that Chinese, Russian, Dutch and French are not dialects has nothing to do with the fact that Silesian is a dialect. It has nothing to do with my logic but everything to do with reality.

The only one making wild claims without any evidence to back it up is you. Your claim is based solely on your feelings and it is you not I who is demanding like a petulant child you are that all should agree with you.

Sure, A "joint Silesian uprising against the Germans

No, Aufstände in Oberschlesien - ever heard? I guess not.

All right boy I'm done with this thread. Post your reply to your mama.
Crow 138 | 5,830    
11 Apr 2015  #72

No matter violent or due to economic incentives, Germanization is mental process. It affecting brain. So, people need more time to get rid of effects and start to behave normally.
JollyRomek 7 | 481    
11 Apr 2015  #73

It has nothing to do with my logic but everything to do with reality.

Reality is that Silesian even differs from Polish in writing. Do you now want to dispute that fact also?

nd fact that Chinese, Russian, Dutch and French are not dialects has nothing to do

Oh but it does. Your inability to understand the reference to Dutch is solely your problem. You claimed that if a Polish person understands Silesian it means that Silesian is a Polish dialect. Following your logic, if a German person understands Dutch, Dutch is nothing but a German dialect.

Post your reply to your mama.

Exactly the response i would have expected from someone who has no further arguments. Did you look at the link "TheOther" posted in post 67?

Dobranoc maly :)
Crow 138 | 5,830    
11 Apr 2015  #74

As we concluded, plebiscite isn`t applicable in this and similar cases.

Most important thing here is that Poland have its sovereignty. Let us hope that some people don`t suggest violation of sovereignty and borders of Poland.
TheOther 5 | 3,060    
11 Apr 2015  #75

plebiscite isn`t applicable in this and similar cases.

Nonsense. It was the meddling of France and the UK in this and similar cases (Gdansk/Danzig and Alsace-Lorraine for example) that was the root cause for WW2 and the death of tens of millions of people.
Crow 138 | 5,830    
11 Apr 2015  #76

Prijatelju Pane TheOther, why did you said to me `nonsense` and then practically confirmed what i said- that `plebiscite isn`t applicable in this and similar cases`? France and UK were nonsensical, as you yourself said and, as i already knew.
TheOther 5 | 3,060    
11 Apr 2015  #77

What I meant is something else, Crow. A plebiscite is generally a good way to solve problems, but you'll need guarantees that the "losing" side honors the outcome. In this case the result was practically overridden by the meddling of the British and French - due to the protest of a minority that did not accept the popular vote.
Crow 138 | 5,830    
11 Apr 2015  #78

i repeat, plebiscite isn`t applicable in this and similar cases. You can`t apply plebiscite on population that was under the pressure of ideology (germanization; in this particular case) for hundreds of years and expect that population show serious resistance to that ideology when exposed to situation such is plebiscite. It simple isn`t realistic, its wrong and also even isn`t honest neither to that originally Slavic population in Silesia, neither to the Slavic civilization in general.

i really don`t care what thinks France, UK or Germany. They are anyway all the same to me.
JollyRomek 7 | 481    
12 Apr 2015  #79

Let us hope that some people don`t suggest violation of sovereignty and borders of Poland.

Well, the last time we have seen the sovereignty of a country crippled, when a minority asked for more rights for use of their language, was when you said that "Russian speakers can do what their want with their territory".

Now you are saying that Silesian people can't have the same rights because it would be anti-Slavic or anti-Polish?

As we concluded

- that you have double standards!
TheOther 5 | 3,060    
12 Apr 2015  #80

You can`t apply plebiscite on population that was under the pressure of ideology for hundreds of years and expect that population show serious resistance to that ideology when exposed to situation such is plebiscite.

Then why did the ethnic Polish population participate in the plebiscite in the first place? See if we win that thing and everything's perfect, and if it doesn't go according to plan let's revolt?
Crow 138 | 5,830    
12 Apr 2015  #81

Well, the last time we have seen the sovereignty of a country crippled, when a minority asked for more rights for use of their language, was when you said that "Russian speakers can do what their want with their territory".

So? What you didn`t understand? That people don`t intend to attach their land to some non-Slavic state. Its all within Slavia.

Now you are saying that Silesian people can't have the same rights because it would be anti-Slavic or anti-Polish?

as you see, anti-Polish is anti-Slavic. Nobody within Slavia can`t secede Slavic land and attach it to other civilization. i mean, it can be tried but, not without serious consequences and disturbances.

But, if solution isn`t possible within Poland, solution in any case must be found within Slavic civilization, with mediation of Poland, taking in account interests of Poland. Ultimately, some hypothetical future Silesian independent state would be still Slavic Silesia. It can`t merge with Germany. Never.

Actually, there are already many regions in today`s Germany with population of Slavic origin, on Slavic ground, by force occupied by Germanics who then introduced germanization. Those regions and that population also have its rights.

Then why did the ethnic Polish population participate in the plebiscite in the first place?

If so, then its wrong and it is possible to happen because Poland isn`t independent but subjugated.

See if we win that thing and everything's perfect, and if it doesn't go according to plan let's revolt?

as i explained. Poland isn`t independent and so, any separation from Poland must be considered as illegal, juridically null and void.
JollyRomek 7 | 481    
12 Apr 2015  #82

Its all within Slavia.

Ah ok. So, it is all within "Slavia". I believe we have heard similar arguments when Serbs went on a rampage in Kosovo to rape women and kill children. It was all within Serbia, right?

Nobody within Slavia can`t secede Slavic land and attach it to other civilization.

Let me make one thing clear to you. There is no such thing as "Slavia"
Unless it is something that exists only in your bedroom when you walk through your wardrobe door. Perhaps you have some kind of special place there.

It can`t merge with Germany.

For now, it is about the status of the language. Let's cross other bridges when we come to it. And even if the people of Silesia would decide that they prefer to join Germany, which would be ignored by Germany anyway, it would not be anyone's choice but the choice of the good people of Silesia no matter how much you start kicking and screaming.
TheOther 5 | 3,060    
12 Apr 2015  #83

Poland isn`t independent and so, any separation from Poland must be considered as illegal, juridically null and void.

Does that mean that (using your words) "any separation from" the German Empire "must be considered as illegal, juridically null and void." as well?
Vox - | 177    
12 Apr 2015  #84

What all this chattering has to do with the fact that Silesians is a dialect? By the way I just noticed a topic of the thread. It is clear that Silesians are not German or Germanic people.
JollyRomek 7 | 481    
12 Apr 2015  #85

What all this chattering has to do with the fact that Silesians is a dialect?

It is a fact that Silesian is not a Polish "dialect" but a language for the simple reason that it differs to Polish in writing. Do you want to dispute that fact?

Sorry, let me re-phrase that......

Are you even able to dispute that fact with your limited knowledge of Poland and Silesia? Surely, to understand the topic at hand it would be beneficial to have stepped foot into Poland and for that matter into Silesia.

Seeing that you are only able to grace this forum from across the big pond without having ever visited Silesia, I would assume that it is difficult for you to understand why Silesian is not just a dialect.

But I am more than open to listen to your explanations.
Vox - | 177    
12 Apr 2015  #86

Jolly what Wikipedia says:

"There is no consensus on whether Silesian is a separate language or a somewhat divergent dialect of Polish.The issue is largely unanswerable based on linguistic criteria, due to the existence of a dialect continuum between Polish and Czech formed by the Silesian and Lach varieties. The issue of whether language forms like Silesian and Lach represent minority languages in their own right is generally quite contentious in Europe due to the increased linguistic and political rights generally enjoyed by speakers of recognized minority languages, and Silesian is no exception"

I don't understand what it has to do with the fact that Silesian people are not Germanic.
JollyRomek 7 | 481    
12 Apr 2015  #87

Jolly what Wikipedia says:

I believe that Wikipedia also refers to the fact that Silesian differs to Polish in writing.

Are you not to able to grasp the concept of language vs. dialect? I understand that maybe it is difficult for you to understand the language thing seeing that the most exotic thing you probably ever heard is the Kentucky accent.

Here in Europe though we do have different languages, not just dialects or accents. If you ever make it over here, I am happy to show you.
Crow 138 | 5,830    
12 Apr 2015  #88

Does that mean that (using your words) "any separation from" the German Empire "must be considered as illegal, juridically null and void." as well?

Did you heard for a term `Drang Nach Osten`? You are, i suppose. See, German Empire was result of Drang Nach Osten. So, any eventual separation of some region from Germany, in order to merge that region with some Slavic state (Poland for example or Russia), represent something legal.

Actually, that`s what happened on the example of Kaliningrad. It was liberation. Same is with Silesia that was attached to Mother Poland. There is no love then it is love of Mother.

There is no consensus on whether Silesian is a separate language or a somewhat divergent dialect of Polish.

Exactly.

I don't understand what it has to do with the fact that Silesian people are not Germanic.

Beautifully defined. i wouldn`t tell it better.

I believe

you absolutely have all rights to believe what you want. i believe in something else but, i am even ready to defend your right to believe what you want.

This is very interesting.

Please, note

The names of Silesia in the different languages most likely share their etymology-Latin and English: Silesia; Polish: Śląsk; Old Polish: Ślążsk[o]; Silesian: Ślůnsk; German: Schlesien; Silesian German: Schläsing; Czech: Slezsko; Slovak: Sliezsko; Kashubian: Sląsk; Upper Sorbian: Šleska; Lower Sorbian: Šlazyńska. The names all relate to the name of a river (now Ślęza) and mountain (Mount Ślęża) in mid-southern Silesia. The mountain is believed to have served as a holy place in prehistoric times.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesia

Let me offer etymology of the word from the angle of Serbian language

In Serbian (Slavic language; Central Europe, South-Eastern Europe and Balkan), Silesia is `Silesija`. Meaning is `numerous and powerful`. Word `silesija` originate from word `sila`. In Serbian `sila` can be understand as `power` and `numerous`. So, both at the same time. `Silesija` is version of `sila` and is regularly understand as `truly numerous`. Now, in context when Serbian language designate some region as `Silesija` it means that Serbs understand that is region `heavily populated`, `with numerous population`. To say, `Silesija` is `land of great/big tribe/people`.

Anyway, trusting to Serbian language, which is probably most archaic Slavic speech, i investigated more in Wikipedia >>>

The Silings or Silingi (Latin: Silingae, Ancient Greek Σιλίγγαι - Silingai) were a Germanic tribe, part of the larger Vandal group. The Silingi at one point lived in Silesia, and the names Silesia and Silingi may be related.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silingi

Trust to Serbs. Their language remembered. Silingi were not Germanic but they were Sarmatian tribe and, as it is proven, Sarmatian name was deep in past universal name of all Slavs. Also, this way or another, we know that Sarmats lived in what is today`s Silesia.

Beware Poles, west of Europe distorted Slavic history. You can`t trust them. You either resist to them or you giving up from yourself. Its simple as that. Its just so simple.
TheOther 5 | 3,060    
13 Apr 2015  #89

German Empire was result of Drang Nach Osten.

Silesia was part of the Kingdom of Prussia before the formation of the German Empire...
Crow 138 | 5,830    
13 Apr 2015  #90

Prussia itself was germanized Slavic realm.

Prussia was subjugated to Germanics back in 1226, when was conquered by the Teutonic Knights (a military religious order), who converted the Prussians to Christianity. But, Prussians turned for help to Poles, pledge their loyalty to Poland if Poles help them against Teutons and then rebelled against Teutonic Knights, in 1454. In 1657, after an invasion by the Swedes, Poland surrendered sovereignty over last portions of Prussia that still controlled. Rest is history of subjugation, partitions and revival of Poland.




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