Jewish Roots of Poland

Do your homework. Go back to history class. Thank you.

:)

During late Roman Empire more then 30% of the population came from Germanic tribes (known to uneducated idiots like you as "barbarians").

In the end Germanic people made up a significant amount of both Eastern and Western Empires and together with the French who're part Celtic part Germanic inherited (albeit in a much cruder form) the Roman civilisation and many of its achievements.

Now go read a book captain retard.

Oh really? What about all the people who already lived here? Were they related to Romans somehow? No they weren't. (Not even remotely!)


Actually, the Romans didn't achieve that much, because they copied most of their ideas and concepts from the Greek, who in turn, copied all of this from the Persians. Germanic tribes actually have more in common with the old Persian tribes than they have in common with the late Romans. End of lecture.


Have fun convincing the whole world that civilization started with the Romans, but I think a lot of archeologists already proved you wrong. Oh, and most of the European tribes were anything but Barbarians, but the victor gets to re-write history and all that..

;)

Medicine, architecture, first Europe wide infrastructure system, standarized currencies for all peoples, improved farming technologies, metalurgy, seafaring.

You're still an idiot buddy.


Not most and not concepts, they incorporated much of Greek philosophy and art but their technological and legal advancements are their own which you would know if you werent a redneck that uses books for wiping his arse.


What do the Medes, Parthians or Sassanids have in common with Germanic tribes? Just stop posting you moron.


The European civilisation, Polish included started from Roman civilisation.

Quite a late start. I wouldn't brag about that.

Although I would argue that the Celtic culture was a huge civilisation all over most of Europe before the Romans were anything and pre-Celtic cultures.

Check New Grange (Wiki) built about 5000 years ago, before the pyramids in Egypt.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newgrange


We are not going to wait for you :p

Their descriptions include "white skin, blue eyes and reddish hair", just like Barbara.
The Khazars looked like this before Mongol invasions.

Given that Jewish secular culture and civilisation was by then dead for centuries and not revived untill XIX century who're you to speak about late starts, your civilisation is less then 150 years old and much poorer then even the youngest nations of Europe, possibly the only country in Europe with less heritage then Jews is Belarus.

Also i wouldnt call over 1000 years of statehood a late start.


Celts were however underdeveloped when compared the Romans, Romans came with all the advancements of a modern civilisation while Celts while being conquered only started to be an urban civilisation with all the trimmings.


The problem with these civilisations is that they came and went without living a lasting imprint, also while they did have great achievements in specific fields they were not an all round advanced civilisation, Rome managed to become the first truly modern civilisation and introduced concepts and ideas that were the foundation of all European nations and states.

turkic people arent only dark hair etc. they have been in many eye and hair colors including red hairs as they have been spreaded in a big geopraphy from europe to far east.. climate plays very important role on all physical appearance. just an example: turkmens of turkmenistan and turkmens of iraq look very different though their roots are same tribe.

take a white polish to asia, he will look like an asian after a century or two even if he marries to a polish female.

Say what? The Celts were living on the islands, just because the Romans called us barbarians and Hadrian built that wall doesn't mean you have to believe the propaganda.


I would argue that too.
The Celts in Poland., they brought agriculture to Europe, one of the biggest steps out of the dark.


The Romans copied the Greeks.

And in France, the greatest campaigns against the Celts were conducted by Ceasar in France, not in England.

Also Hadrians wall was a defence against Picts not Celts.


Agriculture existed in Europe long before the Celtic people and yes i'm aware that there were Celts in Poland but most of them left between 100 and 300 years before proto-Polish tribes settled the region.


Initially yes but once they developed their civilisation they had started many of their own concepts, Roman roads, Trirems, modern agriculture, temperature tampering (they were the first to use glasshouses of various designs) modern medicine at a level uknown in Greece, concepts of ethics, morality and law as well as nationhood that did not exist in such form in Greece not to mention military related technologies.

Another important thing, whatever the Romans did not invent but simply adapt they spread it around the world, things such as heavy cavalry for example, why do you think Germans had such initiall success in conquering the Slavic tribes.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%A9ide_Fields


It was a huge civilisation at the time but that does not mean they were the first by a long shot.

Celts came here around 3300 years ago, Ceide Fields predate them by over 2000 years, like i said agriculture in Europe existed long before Celts ever arrived.


I never said they were the first i just said they were our (European) mother civilisation, the oldest city in the world is over 12.000 years old and f*cks up our history so they're by far not the first.

Yes, you are right.
I was also talking about preCeltic civilizations.
I just disagree that the Romans were the first civilisation in Europe.


Ah, well as far as Philosophy, was it not the Greeks?
Mother Civilisation, you are going to have to expand upon that.


I always wonder about inter-ice-age civilizations but i can't find anything on them.


Where'd you get that from?

I would imagine that many Poles have Jewish blood but I have no data to back that up.
Just the fact that so many Jews were here for such a long time.
I know you are saying they didn't mix but that can't be true unless it was a renforced law with severe penalties. Young ones on a Friday night and all, wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more :)

They invented or popularised concepts that became basis for our civilisation, Poland for example used Latin as its written language for science trade etc all through its golden period.

Germans inherited things like engineering, masonry, ironworks, we're all either direct (Western Europe) or indirect (Eastern Europe) inheritors of Roman civilisation.


No one can but we do find stuff like Tiahuanco or Baalbec, sites that are between 12 and 20.000 years old built with technologies that even today are at the very limit of our capability hence all the Atlantis mumbo jumbo, there's stuff there but due to its age we have no idea who and how put it there, the same with Sphinx to some degree.


Genpol for one but there's more out there, Poles are the most homogenous people in Europe, this is of course not a natural state but rather an effect of German genocide and Russian ethnic policies.


Yep the huge issue is however that they lived alongside Poles not with the Poles.


It was a cultural thing, Nobles saw mixing with Jews as degradation, peasants were extremely insular and Jews themselves were even more so, the Ghettos are a Jewish invention after all, it was a nation within a nation and a country within a country.

Jews today are quite angry over the fact that Poles did not mourn the passing of Jewish minority but the fact is Jews secluded themselves to a point that a Jewish family living next door could as well live on the other planet.

If you have these kinds of cultural bariers then interbreeding is going to be very rare, you have a XXI century grasp of things, parties, people mingling freely, it looked quite different in both the old republics, Polish society from 14th century becomes increasingly stratified and the classes mix less and less, during second republic Jews become emancipated which leads to another conflict with Poles so even in XX century Poland both groups would not intermarry.

Sure there were cases when Rabbi Moshe fell in love with Kasia next door or Piotrek fell in love with Sara the Jewish waitress but these were rare and the relationship coming to fruition even rarer.

'Jewish roots of Poland'???

Polski społeczeństwo jesteście Słowiański. nie Yiddinski.

That is a bit sketchy, I mean as you we already agree, the Romans copied the Greeks. And it can be argued that all peoples improved upon this.

It is a bit subjective, that's all.



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiwanaku



I do have an interest, so perhaps you could point me in the right direction.


This is also heard in the language, Poland being the only country I know with so few dialects.
But homogenisation, I believe came from moving Polish people around Poland. it is impossible, given Poland's geographic location and having been invaded and having had an empire that their genes would not represent all of the different peoples involved, don't you think?


Ah come on, things have changed but not that much, kids especially have always been falling in love :)


It feels like that sometimes in every city living in an apartment complex.

I know what you are saying and I personally have mixed feelings about how Jews lived in other countries. On one hand it is astounding that Jews kept their culture and beliefs alive without having a country for so long but on the other hand it appears they were not diplomatic enough and segragated themselves causing hostility with the Aboriginals of the places they lived.


I am still sticking with the kids will be kids theory :)


And what about some Jewish lad, just intergrating, it would have happened too, no?
I can't imagine that every single Jewish person in Poland kept to themselves in regards to sex. Just look at the women here :):):)

For once i have to agree with Sokrates.
Until the late 19th century there was no social mixing between Jews and Poles. Farmers and Jewish townspeople would buy and sell from each other in the marketplace and there were functional relationships between nobles and Jewish agents, but there was no socializing. And even if occasionally a Jewish girl and a Polish boy would fall in love, there was no such thing then as a secular/civil marriage. There was only religious ceremony. So one half of the couple would have to convert to the other one's religion. Jews were brought up to die rather than abandon the faith. A christian converting to Judaism would be killed, often with a few more Jews for good measure. (That's also why Jews got the habit of discouraging converts from joining.) So there had to be very little mixing of the gene pools. After the emancipation there were more opportunities to mix but that was only about 150 years so it wouldn't affect the Polish gene pool significantly.

When a Jew looks particularly blond and blue-eyed, his friends will ask (joking) if his grandmother was raped by a cossack. I guess that happened sometimes too.

There's an old Polish proverb "Diabeł tkwi w szczegółach" the devil is in the details. They founded much of their philosophy and religion on the Greeks but you have to remember that the primative driving force for Rome was law and technology and these two were developed independently from Greece.

Romans were the ones who popularised crossbows, boarding ships the way it was done to 19 century, they were the first to invent the concept of law in its modern style, public schools, they were the first to get serious about masonry and ironworks.

To realise the extent of their heritage take a look at Germans of Holy Roman Empire, these guys were living in stone castles, using heavy chainmail and weapons, employing heavy cavalry and using irigation and infrastructure that was copied or directly used by Romans.

All major Western settlements including Londinium or Lutetia (Paris) were originally developed under Roman rule.

As for Baalbek: world-mysteries.com/mpl_5b1.htm


Yeah thats the problem, they ignored the astrological dating.

viewzone.com/tia.html


I cant really provide any real explanation to that, either we have uber genes that kill off all traces of other ethnicities or we just stayed relatively intact through the ages, i dont really know how but thats the end result.


It wasnt simply alienation in large housing complexes, Jews and Poles had different cultures to a point that you could not marry a person and their heritage, either you had to go over to the dark side or they did, for Poles and Jews both with loads of heritage (though in Jewish case it was mostly religious) it was not an easy thing to do, also there would often be lack of acceptance from both sides.

Poland was socially stratified, you had Magnates -> nobles -> citizens -> Jews -> peasants.

A Jew was not seen as a different race but as a different plane of society, he was in status somewhere around a citizen but prevented from becoming a full citizen by a massive cultural barrier, Jews did not want to mingle fearing their national cohesion would be treatened and eventually Poles stopped encouraging them having their own problems (partitions and such) so the two groups were increasingly separate despite living alongside each other.

Today Jews like to hang the dogs on us Poles for our supposed anti-semitism but the fact is the separation of our two peoples was always a fact and only deepened by history and both our nations.


Thats only because you dont know what a caste society Poland was, when my great grandmother married a peasant she was excluded from family, it didnt matter that the guy was filthy rich, well educated or simply a decent man, he was a peasant.


Nope, most Jewish lads never felt the need to integrate, neither did Polish lads, they lived peacefully alongside each other but thats it, there was no great push to integration, why would there be? Jews were not bothered and allowed to live as they wanted, Poles lived as they wanted, no one was pushing for forced friendship.


Come on Yehudi i always had you for a smart lad, Jews in Poland were protected by law and no a Christian would not be killed and if he did that was a criminal act and you were hanged for that, stop spreading slander thats Harrys job.

You two do agree on this.


I think that is the truth.


Thanks, I will have a look.
I have been trying to find something for a while that was legitimate on this subject.


This is a bit off topic and would be a very interesting topic on it's own.
but I am still not buying in to it 100% :)

Bullsh*t. Lots of noble families intermarried with Jews (for example Radziwiłłowie, Potoccy, Lubomirscy, Lanckorońscy and Hutten-Czapscy) and Jews were often ennobled themselves.

I also disagree with Yehudi's conviction that a Jew would rather die than convert. According to the Polish law "Jeśliby Żyd który albo Żydówka do wiary chrześcijańskiej przystąpili, tedy każda osoba i potomstwo ich za szlachcica poczytywani być mają"

Meaning that every Jew who converts automatically became a noble and his family did too.
Here's an interesting article about the Jewish Neophytes (with nice drawing of their coats of arms if anyone's interested):
rp.pl/artykul/139640.html

But of course, that's only the nobles. They made up no more than 10% of the population so it's still not enough to significantly change the gene pool of the whole nation. Certainly not many peasants intermarried with Jews.

I wonder how many Jews decided to do that. Becoming a noble is quite an incentive.

Romans were the ones who popularised crossbows, boarding ships the way it was done to 19 century, they were the first to invent the concept of law in its modern style, public schools, they were the first to get serious about masonry and ironworks

Not sure about crossbows but it was the greeks who invented public schooling, they also had law but I agree not as modern as the Romans.

The Romans copied the Greeks.

This is very true, as they did of many and all conquered lands. The Romans ,however were organized one great nation under many gods vs the greeks who were a broken people for the most part often waging war on eachother. The Romans were the ancient version of the borg. They took what they could use and threw away the rest.

I didn't mean they were killed by a mob but by the authorities. The penalty for Jewish proselytizing, in some periods, was death. This of course didn't always happen but there was that danger, at least in the public mind, so there were very few converts. Here's a incident that may or may not be true:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_ben_Abraham

In this book there's some mention of people being killed for converting (pages 44, 65-67)

I agree, the Roman Empire was the second biggest the world had ever seen at that stage in history.


Weren't the Roman Gods also an almost exact copy of the Greek Gods?


Socrates, Plato and Aristotle philosphers that changed Europe forever.
And don't forget ancient Greek drama and the theatrical culture that flourished in ancient Greece between c. 550 and c. 220 BC. for which we would not have such classics as "M jak Miłość" today ;)


I agree of course that the Romans expanded upon what the Greeks were doing. their thirst for conquest was much more than the Greeks and with every new land they conquered, they also got technologies and more "Romans".


What about during and after the 19th century?

What I wonder is, when Jews did convert, did they suddenly stop all ties with the Jewish community, or, were they more like Jewish Christians who mingled in both communities only to officially attend Mass and communion?

They were cut off from the Jewish community. It was social and religious treason.


That was the period when traditional society started to gradually break down and there were more opportunities for a Jew to assimilate culturally without converting. So there were certainly more intermarriages than before, and a couple like that would usually become more Polish and less Jewish. But it was still rare.

If you want a really good picture of how traditional life changed during the 19th century, social upheaval and changing relations between Jews, Poles, Russians and Germans, you should read the novel "The Brothers Ashkenazi" by IJ Singer. (That's the older brother of the Nobel winner IB Singer. I think he was a much better author, but he died in the 1930s). The novel takes place mostly in Lodz as it developed into a textile center in the mid 19th century and continues till the communist revolution.

And visa-versa, Isn't karp a Jewish dish?
I had my first bagle when I came to Poland first, 8 years ago.
In fact isn't much of Polish/Jewish cuisine similar?

Any time people sell paintings on the street here in Krakow, there are always Jews in some of them, making it seem that the two were not as separate as it has been previous stated on this thread. I know we were talking about having kids together but with mixing comes mixing, if you know what I mean ;)

1938-9 Jewish Life in Cracow (Kazimierz)
...

The Jews in the above film look very happy and relaxed in 1938-9. How much of a warning did they have that they were going to be slaughtered by an invading force?

(sorry I know that is a bit off topic but I can't help ask when I see the year).

Which is something else I wonder about...it seems that there is so much influence on each other, between Poles and Jews. Even the name "Polan" seems to be shared.

This next video shows some of the above footage but then shows the Jews with armbands and bringing their furniture across the Pilsudski Bridge, Kraków, obviously after the German invasion.

There is sculptings of chairs at Plac Bohaterów to commemorate the Jews bringing their furniture and leaving all of it there, as they were brought to Auschwitz, at the other side of that bridge now, where the Jewish Ghetto was and Schindler's factory, now a genocide museum.

So I guess they had no warning by the looks of it.
Saluting Krakow Jweish הצדעה ליהודי קרקוב



And here is Nazi German occupied Krakow.