Polish and gypsy traditions

A rich tradition. One worth preserving.

Do you know the famous Polish song based on the Agnieszka Osiecka poem?

Nope.

Here it is.

About the question in the post before, what is the situation in your country about peripatetic Teachers for Romany and Traveller kids?

Kind of zero, I'm afraid.

The central government has no gypsy policy. The Kremlin does not know Gypsies exist.

Policy is determined locally, by municipal leaders and governors.

Usually the methods are coercive. Some kind of murder or other gruesome crime happens within a Gypsy tabor, and the government cracks down. Takes away their children, places them in Russian boarding schools, and forcibly Russifies them.

If it doesn't go the extreme boarding school route, they still insist on educating the kids - sometimes under convoy and armed guards.

This is the only way that Gypsies ever reform - if you steal them away from their family and immerse them in secular Russian education.

As far as I know, that's the same for us.


Reform?

Turned into normal, non-thieving, non-scamming individuals.

Will you argue that parasitizing on good English folk and Russian folk is a good way to live?

Do their own kids not feel self conscious about this way of life their father is imposing upon them?

Do they not see - how their mother has no rights and is treated as less than human?

They carry the same blueprint within their souls as me - so I assume they want the same thing.

Ours aren't.

You're obviously doing something wrong.


They don't.


A good friend is a full blooded Romany and he's a credit to his family.


Like the women and little girls raped in Bucha?

I've watched Guy Ritchie's "Snatch". I got a small dose of what English attitudes towards Pikeys are.

If Jason Statham and Guy Ritchie are representative of what the average Englishman thinks about Pikeys - then spare me your melodrama.


Right. Every depiction of Irish Travellers and English Gypsies I've seen - shows them as thieving bastards.


Good for him. I have a female friend that is 75% Romani - she is a credit to her history faculty.


Alright well this went too far and was uncalled for.

umm thats what they are?

why?

That word is best avoided.

Snatch was a film. Fiction.


Visit and come to my town. You'll meet some. That is better than a depiction.


The soldiers that did that certainly went far too far. I've not heard about such things ever happening among the Angloromai and from what I know, they'd self-regulate very efficiently.

In 2019, sorry.


That depends on what you mean. As with traditions of all kinds of different peoples around the world some traditions are worth preserving and some are not.


It's the same in Poland. Although one guy from a tabor staying near my grandma's village allegedly tried to kidnapp me when I was a baby (I had very thick, dark hair as a baby) lol


Well, very high unemployment and very low
education level of Romani people has been also a problem in Poland. Even though situation improved thanks to special government initiatives the unemployment in this community was 70% in 2013 (I don't know what it is now). Only a bit over 2% had higher education, the lowest of all the minorities in Poland. Only 7% finished high school. 82% had the most basic education. This contributes to "social exclusion" as cited in the article:

bankier.pl/wiadomosc/NIK-bezrobocie-to-wciaz-jeden-z-glownych-problemow-mniejszosci-romskiej-3482944.html

@Bobko, are there such data for RuSSia? 🤔

The question is, who decides?

One thing about Romany, is that they don't often discuss all of the traditions that make up "gypsiness". Some are almost a thousand years old and rarely discussed with outsiders.

Some are known about, like gypsy men filing rather than cutting their nails, some of the traditions regarding hygiene (until settled people gotta indoor plumbing, Romany were generally far cleaner), some of the food rules, the th8 g about phone numbers and a couple of other things. Others aren't ever discussed with outsiders.

If you've ever been given bank notes by Angloromani, you'd have noticde something special.


When writing or speaking English, it's better to say camp rather than tabor. There's an identical word in English with a different meaning and in English, gypsy camps are t called tabors.


We don't have that. Romany almost never ever claim unemployment benefit. Perhaps they have a more settled and established role in society. From the way I've seen some people in this thread talk about them, no wonder some of them don't want to engage in society.


All part of the hostility against them. A vicious circle.

You know what - I have an impression that for you it depends whose traditions those are. If they're "white and Christian" then, for example, patriarchy, sexism and misogyny is "bad" and should go extinct. But if patriarchy, sexism and misogyny is "non-white and non-Christian" then it's somehow "OK" or "no biggie" for you because it's "part of the culture." I absolutely despise such hypocrisy.


I'm guessing that's why some of those traditions/convictions are so retarded - as if taken out straight from the Old Testament.


That's why I used italics to stress it's a Polish word, since I didn't know what they're called in English.


What's the data for the UK then?


Isn't this "isolationism" part of their culture though (or maybe a way of preserving their culture)? After doing some reading I've got an impression that for Roma people it's "us (Roma) vs them (the rest of society)" mentality.

And as for traditions that I think are detrimental to their own communities - some are mentioned here:

pielegniarkicyfrowe.pl/2022/01/27/styl-zycia-romow/

If there were, I'd be highly surprised. Largely - we pretend they don't exist, until something bad happens. Then, there is a lot of bad blood on all sides. The gypsies are angry at us for stealing their children, and we are angry at them for allowing children to grow up in such an environment.

I'm sure they themselves are not happy being who they are.

A kid born into that environment has no chance. The Russian state or some kindly local Russian - are their only way to becoming contributing members of society.

--/////-

Completely off topic... but back home - we had a famous Gypsy that was my age. In fact, he was born in exactly 1989 - same as me. His thing was standing in the middle of traffic, begging for money from cars. His schtick was that he pretend to have cerebral palsy.

In the evening, when I saw him off work, the motherf*cker had an iPod Video (which I didn't have), and an amazing set of headphones. He would also go to the mall, and stroll through Zara and H&M.

One day - people got tired of him, and beat him so hard he almost became a genuine handicap. Guess what? Next day he showed up at work, as though nothing happened.

An incorrect one.

That statement says more about you than me. I do see what you're saying though and would add that the more developed and affluent the society, the less slack the6 can be cut. Something bad enough in a remote and hungry Amazon tribe is ten times worse if it's practised by privileged groups.


The Gypsies where I come from are very much both.


Why use that nasty word? What have people with learning disabilities ever done to hurt you. Words have power; it's best to leave the toilet talk to people lie, Novichok who can't help themselves.

As for Romany traditions, they've ensure survival against all odds and against the worst sort of persecution for centuries. Their ancestors three centuries ago were cleaner than yours and mine.


Just camps and/or winter quarters. The ones I've seen up close in Poland (specifically in Poldlasie) have characteristics of both but are closer to winter quarters.


That's what people have pushed them into. Successful subcultures are the ones able to protect themselves.

Yes - like the Russian Bratva or "Brotherhood". Emerging from Stalin's camps, they have now been so successful that they imposed their prison mentality onto all of us.

F*ck "subcultures".

I don't respect any turd that tries to sell me criminality as mainstream.

I am with the Reds. The cops. The KGB. The army.

While someone steals to feed his ass, others sacrifice beyond measure. This cannot be so.

They always appear, and long may they do so.


Every society has that, without exception. No country has no police, courts or prosecutors.

...LGBTs, migrants, Gypsies, Russia haters, and everybody I don't like...

Thanks for the introduction, Bobko...

Don't take my words to the extreme.

They are Gods of music. Of food. And Woodwork. Also very talented metallurgists.

The women... ahhh.

Don't use me as some example of Gypsy hate - my views are a bit more complex.

Euros are polite and tolerant because they have no choice...Fear works wonders in Europe...

We are often rude and intolerant because we are not afraid. Hate is protected speech in "the States" - by the very First Amendment, not 25th...

Dear First: I love you so much...

I take full responsibility for my posts. You just created an oppo for me to continue with the subject.


There is nothing nuanced about Gypsies or any other parasitic group...Stealing, singing, and "reading" do not create wealth.

e.g. pensioners... 🤔

When I was a kid, they used to go door to door. They've stopped doing that now. Back in the day the men would come and offer to do odd jobs, gardening, the classic tarmac your drive Sir, or the really ancient fellas would mend cast iron pots, sharpen knives etc. The aul fellas were generally very courteous with a kind of old-fashioned chivalry, They always asked for 'the lady of the house' when they came to the door, addressed the young girls as 'Miss' and the older ones as 'Ma,'am'. They were a relic of the old days of Ireland when itinerant workers and labourers offered their services to big farms and the gentry. So they behaved accordingly, using the manners of a century before. At some point, when they realised that the people in the houses were mostly just new rich and rough as old bags themselves, the younger ones, thought 'f@ck that for a game o' soldiers' (as we say in Ireland) and though they were still civil enough, they didn't tug the forelock quite as much, or take so much care over the work.

The women would always come begging, either with a child/children or a 'babby' as they called it. 'Would you have a drop of milk for the babby/a drink o' water for the child. Have you a few old clothes for the 'chillder' Missus?'. They were always a bit cheekier and pushier than the men, and addressed the lady of the house as plain Missus, rather than Ma'am ;) You had to be careful with them as they were known to dodge into the house and nick something if you left them on the doorstep while you went to get the milk or something for the child. A lot of kindhearted women would tell them to wait outside while they went and looked out some outgrown clothes to give the children and would close the front door while they did so. Later that day, they'd find the clothes dumped at the side of the road somewhere nearby. The women incidentally were always wrapped in a tartan travelling rug, a legacy of the old Gaelic days when people wore a cloak, known as the Irish mantle. There were a few nice old women though, who were selling 'holy pictures' - what you'd call icons. If you bought one, they'd give you a rapturous eulogy in the old Gaelic style and then a blessing 'God bless ya on the height of your journey Missus' or similar. But we had one who came to the door on Christmas Day who cursed us - lovely stuff :))

They've moved on to various more elaborate ways of making a living these days. Insurance fraud is a favourite. 'Ah Jaysus, Missus, I'm after fallin' on somethin' and breakin' me arse above in the supermarket' etc etc

They still do round my way, however there's a big presence in that town.

In the Leeds suburbs, if you've something metal like an old cooker that you want to get rid of but don't want to take to the tip, you just leave it at the end of your drive in the morning and they collect it for the scrap during the day.

No, it doesn't - you are the one giving out such vibe, so how about you make your stance more clear.


That's not what you're doing though. I haven't seen you criticising the level of women's rights in Saudi Arabia, for example. The same with Iran which maybe isn't a rich country, but it isn't some third world hell hole either. You even dishonestly compared wearing a hijab in Iran to women wearing coats in Europe. That's the kind of bullsh1t behaviour I'm talking about.


Don't be obtuse. I use this word whenever "stupid" doesn't cut it as the translation of the polish word "debilny" and that's the meaning of this word that I used in that context:

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/retarded

"informal + offensive: very stupid or foolish"

Also, I don't recall you having any problem with me calling Novichok a "moron" or calling his comments "retarded", so spare me this sudden hypersensitivity.


OK, but it's 21st century. There's no reason to believe anymore that menstruating women are somehow morally/socially/religiously "unclean" or that hospital is "unclean" and therefore you shouldn't go there. That's simply a dangerous conviction.


That's probably partly true, but I suspect that just like in case of Jews it was also intentional - to preserve their culture and ways. Such self-isolation has its price though - such hermetic communities are more likely to be rejected by the society or at least treated with suspicion.

Why the hell would I? I spent 3 months there around 15 years ago and wasn't much bothered for the place. There's plenty of people more interested in the internal affairs of KSA.


Every bit as bad. It really is better not to use terms that diminish people with disabilities.


So people can't criticise something without criticising everything else?

It looks like you're just trying to pick an argument.

Go out and get some fresh air and exercise. You're spoiling an interesting discussion with your overly long and deliberately argumentative posts full of quotes.

In order to be objective and believable? You were the one who wrote that "the more developed and affluent the society, the less slack the6 can be cut."


The word "debilny" hasn't been used to describe people with disabilities for a long time in Poland. I've never heard it being used as a medical term in my entire life. Words can have more than one meaning or with time they can change the meaning altogether. Read about word "kutas" if you don't believe me :)


If you tend to criticise just one group of people and avoid criticising other groups of people for the same thing then people have a reason to suspect that you're a hypocrite. Do with that what you will.


I'm not spoiling anything - I have the right to write what I think as much as you do. Whenever I write something you don't like you accuse me of being "deliberately argumentative" which is lame. I will write it again - I have the right to write what I think about your views and behaviour (and anyone elses) just like ANYBODY ELSE on this forum. You can't change that, so if you don't want to discuss stuff with me - then just don't. Noone is forcing you. You can discuss with someone else or go out and get some fresh air and exercise :)

Another long one.

I'll not read it; life's too short and too full of joy to argue with strangers who want to bicker online.

We're talking about Romany and other Traveller groups, not your neuroses.

@jon357, but life is not too short for you to be an a$$hole, huh? :)))


Yes, you clearly prefer not to see the truth that's inconvenient for you. You remind me of pawian - two a$$holes that can't take honest criticism or someone disagreeing with them.


And it's started with you saying that Roma tradition is worth preserving and I commented that not all of their traditions are worth preserving. And then you asked this sleazy question (sorry, but I do think it's sleazy): "who decides?" Would you ask that question if it was about superstitions concerning people with albinism in Tanzania? Or would you simply say that they are wrong, backward and should die out?

You are starting to see the patterns.

Also try to notice any member of the left being critical (or precisely not) of:
1. Jews
2. Homosexuals
3. Czechs
4. Poles
5. Russians
6. Gypsies

(Hint, they were prisoners by Nazi Germany in Death/concentration camps)

Some were defended more vigorously but, situation in world politics can change it. Like modern state of "Israel" switching sides in the 60's and Poland rebelling against the Soviet Union.

For many of the left, defending those minorities equalises to fighting Nazi's or Nazi like minded individuals. (Pawian also added women in general and if feminism is popular, it's also added to the mix)