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Polish and gypsy traditions


Novichok 5 | 7,853
11 Feb 2024 #31
Once a home was hollowed out they would get back on their wagons and move on.

Because Gypsies are natural-born thieves.
Still waiting to be wrong just once...God...please...just once...
Alien 18 | 4,845
11 Feb 2024 #32
. I feel sorry for them

Żal-this is how you can translate an entire English sentence with one word.
pawian 222 | 23,766
11 Feb 2024 #33
Still waiting to be wrong just once...

I proved you wrong tens of times here. That is why you put me on ignore coz you couldn`t bear it any longer. hahaha
mafketis 36 | 10,859
11 Feb 2024 #34
Gypsies are natural-born thieves.

According to a professor (former jugoslav country) who had done linguistic and cultural research that's not entirely true.

Gypsies have castes (they do come from India after all) and some groups steal and some don't. So you need to know what group/caste you're dealing with. Some groups/castes are more dangerous though generally they're not that dangerous.

Interestingly even the musicians have castes so particular families specialize in violin or singing or some other instrument.

Medically they're walking disasters because of extensive inbreeding and many doctors more or less refuse to deal with them because of the weird syndromes they have.
jon357 74 | 21,937
11 Feb 2024 #35
So you need to know what group/caste you're dealing with

And that's something that Roma tend not to discuss much with outsiders.

There's a dividing line, linguistic and cultural running across Poland, the south and the north. There are fine very different traditions.

particular families specialize in violin

Have you heard much of King Vasyl's music? His family are superb performers.
mafketis 36 | 10,859
11 Feb 2024 #36
King Vasyl's music?

In terms of gypsy music I'm more into Spain. The movie Vengo is great, not much of a story (family feud with a guy haunted by the death of his sister and trying to protect his disabled brother) but tons of different types of flamenco

youtube.com/watch?v=ViCVxYO8r0A

Also Romania, for a few years I listened to a fair amount of Manele (mix of folk, Turkish and pop elements) a genre with very prominent Gypsy participation.

Here's a nice example... (possibly a cover of a song from another country.... a very, very, very common phenomenon)

The woman was one of the biggest stars of the genre but also a tragic example of Gypsy disgenics.... she was apparently born with a tumor and in her mid twenties it did horrible things to her before killing her.

Also, note how Indian the guy looks...

youtube.com/watch?v=bMt06xnqXbs
Novichok 5 | 7,853
11 Feb 2024 #37
So you need to know what group/caste you're dealing with.

No, I don't.
Just as I assume that all snakes are venomous and guns are loaded, I assume that Gypsies are thieves and that blacks are natural-born killers, looters, and irresponsible sperm depositors who fvck, walk, and dump the rest on whites.
Korvinus 2 | 457
11 Feb 2024 #38
I assume that Gypsies are thieves

Poland have had different approach to dealing with Gypsies - with completely different results.

When there were ethnic conflicts (near Mława in 90s) - Polish government had met with Gypsy leaders - and explain them in no uncertain terms that government will cut off all EU money for 'preserving unique Gypsy culture' if together they won't be able to sell recent ethnic violence as 'few youths got drunk and there were some fist fights'. After few months - Poland was once again seen as a tolerant country that always loved Gypsies - and Gypsy leaders got their EU money back.

When say Slovakia tries to deal with Gypsies - the result is losing money and international respect for being racist.

To explain this phenomena - Polish gypsies invented 'Polish Roma' - which is a tribe completely different from other Gypsies. They were always hard working smiths, artisans and artists - never stealing or eating dogs, perfectly able to integrate - and just needing a lot of money so their unique culture won't be lost for future generations. 'Polish Roma' despises Romanian gypsies begging on the streets or criminal lumpenproletariat - 'you know - different Gypsy tribe'.

I'm not really convinced that there is really any genetic difference between 'Polish Roma' and the rest of Gypsies. Sure - there was some DNA flow due to some rich, influentian white men being keen on black-eyed, black-haired women - and all women really liking gold coins - but it's the same everywhere and not really unique to historical territory of Poland.
Novichok 5 | 7,853
11 Feb 2024 #39
When say Slovakia tries to deal with Gypsies -

I like Slovakia more...
Poland needs Gypsies like you need tuberculosis.
jon357 74 | 21,937
12 Feb 2024 #40
the rest of Gypsie

They're a large and diverse group.

Really they deserve representation as a national minority.
Ironside 53 | 12,493
12 Feb 2024 #41
Really they deserve representation as a national minority.
@ jon357

I don't think so, that pandering to minorities is reversing the flow of history, and not in a good way,
jon357 74 | 21,937
12 Feb 2024 #42
pandering

Or respecting a vulnerable group of people.

There have been Roma in Poland since before the ancestors of many who consider themselves Polish.
Ironside 53 | 12,493
12 Feb 2024 #43
Or respecting a vulnerable group of people.

The problem with such an attitude is that every group has its subgroup that is more vulnerable than others and when you have such a subgroup within a nominal majority that is vulnerable as well, to pander to one group's needs might as well be neglecting the other group and it all creates more mess and problems and resentments that it is worth it.

So the best way forward is to treat people as individuals regardless of their background and alleged group identity. Seems to me to be the best solution.

----

There have been Roma in Poland since before the ancestors of many who consider themselves Polish.

Is that famous who was here first? or first come first served? lol!
In my opinion, it doesn't matter who was first where and for how long but rather who made a country there and who makes rules has a decisive say in things.
jon357 74 | 21,937
12 Feb 2024 #44
pander

No 'pandering' though.

If you don't treat people equally, you can't whinge when they hurt you back.

In my opinion, it doesn't matter who was first where

Good. So at least you admit that minorities and in fact any citizens have the same claim on Poland as your own group do.
mafketis 36 | 10,859
12 Feb 2024 #45
If you don't treat people equally

Define that please... there's a lot of assumptions going on in that sentence.

I'm in favor of individuals being equal before the law.

But the idea that Gypsy culture is as valuable as Polish (or any other European majority) culture is laughable. It's aggressively clannish and against education and is essentially a parasitic culture that requires a host to thrive (I think Hassidic Jews are another, very different example of a non-self sufficient minority).

Yes there are some entertaining aspects but Gypsies have very narrow horizons and no high culture.
Novichok 5 | 7,853
12 Feb 2024 #46
They're a large and diverse group.

So are rodents.

There have been Roma in Poland since before the ancestors of many who consider themselves Polish.

...when they need something. Just as Jews...
Ironside 53 | 12,493
12 Feb 2024 #47
If you don't treat people equally,

people or individuals? I think it is better to treat people as individuals and the laws should do that. It doesn't extend to groups.

------

So at least you admit that minorities and in fact any citizens have the same claim on Poland

Not really, they can have the same rights as citizen and they do, that is not contest here, you are hinting on minorities and special treatment ergo privileges I;m against that5,
jon357 74 | 21,937
12 Feb 2024 #48
people or individuals?

Sections of society.

hinting on minorities and special treatment ergo privileges

Not 'hinting'. Vulnerable groups need a lift or all the problems that the small-minded moan about will remain or increase.
mafketis 36 | 10,859
12 Feb 2024 #49
Vulnerable groups need a lift

For that to owrk the vulnerable groups need to want a lift, which..... not all do.
jon357 74 | 21,937
12 Feb 2024 #50
want a lift

I suspect that in the case of Roma it's a combination of having to survive in the face of hostility for centuries as well as being pushed to the bottom of society.

In the U.K. we've got a way to go as well, however spending time and effort on traveller education and resources seems to be slowly paying off; there are more and more doing well in life.

There are also Angloromanichal and people with some of that heritage in Warsaw, with good jobs and good lives.
mafketis 36 | 10,859
12 Feb 2024 #51
I suspect that in the case of Roma it's

I'd say it's more the values they brought from India (esp clannishness and traditionalism for its own sake) and negative definition. They self-define as not gadje so they reject the kind of values and policies that could lift them up.

And... most are happy enough. Most would rather be poor Gypsies than prosperous Gadje....

Accepting that not all groups of human have the same preferneces is not fun or easy but it's necessary to create funcitonal policy.
Novichok 5 | 7,853
12 Feb 2024 #52
hostility for centuries

Hostility for centuries always has a reason. Like Jewish pogroms.
Somehow we never discuss those reasons...

Have you heard about hostilities against Norwegians?
jon357 74 | 21,937
12 Feb 2024 #53
I'd say it's more the values they brought from India

They're all (including g the Middle Eastern ones) descended from a group of 800 musicians.

The clannishness is certainly reinforced by being outsiders.

poor Gypsies than prosperous Gadje....

I like prosperous gypsies. Given how badly they've been treated it's not too much to ask of society that we slowly and carefully help them be the best they want to be and can be.

Btw, my Barb in the other thread was aimed at an old codger rather than yourself if you've not yet seen the edit
Novichok 5 | 7,853
12 Feb 2024 #54
it's not too much to ask of society that we slowly and carefully help them

How much did they get from you?
jon357 74 | 21,937
12 Feb 2024 #55
@Novichok
As much as from the rest of society plus a little more.
mafketis 36 | 10,859
12 Feb 2024 #56
They're all (including g the Middle Eastern ones) descended from a group of 800 musicians.

I thought the latest theory was that they were camp followers who followed a group of soldiers out of the Indian sub-continent, were sold into slavery and then escaped.

The camp-follower theory certainly fits a lot of their traditional occupations....

Many moons ago I had a friend who'd been (briefly) in a Peace Corps type group (more than one IIRC). Anyway they were told during their first training something like "If it's not happening already, you're not going to start it" outlining the limits of what was actually achievable.

If a community isn't even trying to educate itself (for example) then youre new school is not going to be used and/or will fall into disuse as soon as your back is turned.
jon357 74 | 21,937
12 Feb 2024 #57
camp-follower theory

That may be so.

There's more than you'd think in Syria and Egypt. Even there they've kept their traditions.

If a community isn't even trying to educate itself

The Angloromanis are certainly having a go. It's taken years of careful help though and there's still a way to go.
Novichok 5 | 7,853
12 Feb 2024 #58
"How much" calls for a number, not an essay.

Hey, open borders freak, name one country that benefitted from admitting Gypsies.
cms neuf 1 | 1,782
12 Feb 2024 #59
I don't know but once was staying at a hotel in Cleveland, pretty nice one, and there was a gypsy wedding there and they seemed genuinely very wealthy - and not just in the way of Polish Gypsies
Novichok 5 | 7,853
12 Feb 2024 #60
Maddof and other Jewish swindlers were wealthy, too.


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