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Is brain-damaging vegan fad growing in Poland?

jon357 Activity: 53 / 10,844
Joined: 15 Mar 2012 ♂
 
24 Nov 2014  #61

Veggies do generally look younger and healthier. Plus meat in Poland tends not to be great quality so worth avoiding even if you aren't veggie.

Jane Easton  
18 Feb 2015  #62

I have read some serious misunderstandings and prejudices about the vegan diet and whether we are meant to eat meat or not. Check out these useful links.

viva.org.uk/going-vegetarian-vegan/going-veggie/how/myths
viva.org.uk/going-vegetarian-vegan/going-veggie/how/20-questions
Also your own country has a fantastic vegan group viva.org.pl/home.html

There are now millions of healthy vegans around the world, including successful athletes, eg bodybuilders and endurance marathon runners. You don't have to be very 'strict' or 'careful' to get a balanced diet, just learn a few basics, read a bit and use your common sense - and eat well! Plant proteins are easy for the body to combine and as long as a wide variety of foods are eaten: peas, beans, lentils, nuts, seeds, soya (tofu or tempeh is best), all vegetables, fruits, sea vegetables - it is easy to get the necessary nutrients and contemporary vegan food is absolutely delicious. Vegans have lower rates of all the major 'diseases of affluence' eg heart disease, many cancers, diabetes type 2 and obesity so we're clearly doing something right!

All the major health bodies worldwide (eg British Medical Association and the American Dietetic Association) recognise that a well-balanced vegan diet is not only healthy but often better than a 'mainstream' diet.

Just as dinosaurs became extinct because they couldn't adapt, we are in danger of a similar fate. The planet cannot sustain the kind of diet typical of most Westerners - meat and dairy production are creating environmental damage so is overfishing - yet we could feed the world healthily and well on a vegetarian or better still, a vegan diet.

There are far more instances of ill-health amongst meat-eaters than there are vegans. The media always publicises that 'starving baby' story but doesn't look at the huge numbers of healthy, thriving vegan children. I know many and they are amazing young people, full of life and health.

I hope everyone on this forum will take the time to look at the resources I've suggested and debate more respectfully. It's good to have a debate but not to call people names, eh?!
Rand  
18 Feb 2015  #63

Moderation is the key, but if its purity of body that one is seeking, avoiding foods the body needs is not the answer. Fasting every so often would probably be a better idea. A couple of days every few weeks or so would probably be enough.
Polsyr Activity: 6 / 907
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 ♂
 
17 May 2015  #64

viva.org.pl/home.html

Great organization, and they link to this vegan internet shop:
vegekoszyk.pl (here you will find a variety of vegan products that can be ordered online and delivered in Poland, but website is only in Polish).

Speaking of successful vegans, I am sure you heard of Leilani Munter? She was here in Europe not too long ago.

I would like to see reliable research that suggests that a balanced vegan diet can damage the human brain. Preferably not something done by or paid for by some meat farmers' association.

It is worth highlighting that there is research that suggests that meat production has a huge environmental cost - here is one example: pnas.org/content/111/33/11996

and there are many more if you just google.

Also, a personal opinion, veganism is not a fad, it is a way of life supported by strong science and common sense, and will undoubtedly be the norm in the future as sustainability becomes a deciding factor for more and more people.
ziggy007 Activity: 1 / 2
Joined: 29 Apr 2016 ♀
 
29 Apr 2016  #65

What a ridiculous statement. I've been vegan for 35 years and I am healthy and don't look my age. Meat eaters get cancer, diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, hormone imbalance and a plethora of other diseases, in addition to contributing to global warming and deforestation.
OP Polonius3 Activity: 978 / 11,641
Joined: 11 Apr 2008 ♂
 
29 Apr 2016  #66

veganism

By eliminating all animal products from the diet vegans increase the risk of certain nutritional deficiencies. Micronutrients of special concern for the vegan include vitamins B-12 and D, calcium, and long-chain n-3 (omega-3) fatty acids. Unless vegans regularly consume foods that are fortified with these nutrients, appropriate supplements should be consumed. In some cases, iron and zinc status of vegans may also be of concern because of the limited bioavailability of these minerals.

Homo sapiens is an omnivore and a diverse, balanced diet is his best choice.
kondzior Activity: 7 / 884
Joined: 16 Oct 2009 ♂
 
30 Apr 2016  #67

It's not about choice of food. I wouldn't have an issue if it was only that. Hell, I have plenty of vegetarian friends who don't turn their eating habits into some kind of "cause to save the planet" nor do they change their whole lifestyle just to accommodate their views. And I'm perfectly OK with that.

I take issue when vegans start preaching to me PERSONALLY about how unnatural the act of eating/using animals is. How foocking despicable we are. How high and mighty and empathetic their cause is. These urban faggots belittle those whose livelihoods depend on animals or people who do hard physical work and need protein. They belittle whole human race that still would be digging melons as monkeys somewhere in Africa if not for animals.

I swear to God, every time I read someone posting stuf like "Ow mah gawd, it turns out my pillows were filled with feathers this whole time. I'm such a sinner, ya'll XD" or "My kids will be vegans too" , it makes me want to choke them!
Sparks11 Activity: - / 214
Joined: 31 Jan 2013 ♂
 
30 Apr 2016  #68

Where do you find vegans who preach at you? I've never found one that seriously can't understand why people eat meat, usually they realize that it's there choice, others make other choices, no biggie. They should be easy enough to shut down, tell them you'll pound them with your meat muscles :)
Polson Activity: 6 / 1,899
Joined: 9 May 2007 ♂
 
1 May 2016  #69

By eliminating all animal products from the diet vegans increase the risk of certain nutritional deficiencies.

Various nutritional deficiencies are found among omnivorous people too.

vitamins B-12 and D, calcium

Most of the synthetic B12 world production goes to livestock supplementation. Which means that the B12 we get from the animals we eat actually come from food supplementation and medication these animals get in "farms". I'd rather supplement myself directly than through dead animal flesh.

Vitamin D can be synthesised by your body just by sun exposure.
As to calcium, the countries where dairy products consumption is the highest are also the ones where bone problems (such as osteoporosis) are the most commonly found. Calcium can be found in non-animal products.

Homo sapiens is an omnivore and a diverse, balanced diet is his best choice.

This is very true. A diverse and balanced diet is one of the keys to a good health. But meat consumption is not vital. A diverse and balanced diet without animal products can be very healthy.

Homo sapiens is an omnivore indeed. Which means that we, humans, CAN eat everything (more or less). Not that we HAVE TO.
Humans have always adapted their diet to what their environment could "produce". Most of humans are lactose intolerant. While others eat insects.

We eat too much meat. And emerging countries like China and India tend to eat more and more meat. Which will cause great environmental and ethical problems.
OP Polonius3 Activity: 978 / 11,641
Joined: 11 Apr 2008 ♂
 
1 May 2016  #70

We eat too much meat

That's true. Japanese kids used to have a smooth almond complexion until McDonald's came along. Now they have acne just like Westerners. The classic Italian peasant diet was lots of veggies, greens and pasta with a little meat or seafood for flavouring. But when the poor Sicilian peasants came to America where food was cheap, they greatly "meatified" their diet with all the adverse consequences of excess. Animal protein in moderation together with a balanced diet and adequate exercise is the best solution except for those who need trendy PC causes to promote.
Polson Activity: 6 / 1,899
Joined: 9 May 2007 ♂
 
2 May 2016  #71

I agree with everything you said, except the last sentence (of course ;)).
Not sure what you mean by "trendy PC causes to promote". I don't see why extending our empathy to our four-legged (and two-winged/finned) companions would be a "trendy PC cause".

If meat is not an absolute necessity, why would I keep causing pain and suffering to so many beings?
This is a genuine question. I don't see it as a naive "trendy PC cause", but more a real philosophical, ethical questioning.

Only if we see animals as mere objects can we keep treating them this way. Otherwise, we need to rethink a few things.
jon357 Activity: 53 / 10,844
Joined: 15 Mar 2012 ♂
 
2 May 2016  #72

Not sure what you mean by "trendy PC causes to promote".

Same here. I suspect he means "anything not conspicuously old-fashioned".

Meat is basically dead animals, reared (especially in Poland) in a cruel way and slaughtered so a particular species can steal the protein and carbohydrate from their corpses. It tastes nice, but we don't really need to eat it much or at all.
AdrianK9 Activity: 6 / 485
Joined: 16 Feb 2016 ♂
 :-(
2 May 2016  #73

Adolf Hitler and the Nazis were actually one of the first groups to enact animal protection laws. Himler banned trapping and put severe restrictions on hunting while Goebels, a conservationist himself, described Hitler as a vegetarian.

Göring announced in a radio broadcast::

An absolute and permanent ban on vivisection is not only a necessary law to protect animals and to show sympathy with their pain, but it is also a law for humanity itself.... I have therefore announced the immediate prohibition of vivisection and have made the practice a punishable offense in Prussia.

PETA ought to be proud of their roots

That's fine... let the idiots eat that nasty vegan garbage. For every animal they don't eat, I'll eat three.

You guys in the EU are lucky though - you don't have the same processed garbage that we do in the US, Canada, and Mexico. Our food is straight up disgusting. Literally the meat and cheese especially just smells and tastes so much different in Europe than it does in N. America. Like you can almost smell all the nasty chemicals in it.

I almost exclusively shop at Polish delis but still, it's not the same as the original.

Well it's lunch time. I think I'll have a delicious baby cow sandwich. (Veal calves are to my knowledge the only animal which hormones cannot be used on for any reason according to the USDA, although some farmers still put in hormone implants and then remove them prior to an inspection. However, antibiotics are not off limits. Still better than nothing though).
Polson Activity: 6 / 1,899
Joined: 9 May 2007 ♂
 
2 May 2016  #74

Meat is basically dead animals, reared (especially in Poland) in a cruel way and slaughtered so a particular species can steal the protein and carbohydrate from their corpses.

Indeed. Barbarians do that. Civilised people can decide and act differently (ok, this is provocation, a little, but somehow true ;)).

Himler banned trapping and put severe restrictions on hunting while Goebels, a conservationist himself, described Hitler as a vegetarian.

This is all political, Adrian. The nazis needed to work on their image. And showing empathy to animals helps a lot!
As to Hitler being a vegetarian, this is VERY debatable. If this really was true, it could have been for medical reasons (the guy wasn't very healthy). Also, apparently, Hitler's favourite meal contained meat.

PETA ought to be proud of their roots

This is unfair (and wrong). Vegetarianism was not created by Nazi Germany, please... Some Ancient Greeks like Pythagoras were vegetarian. Were they nazis?

That's fine... let the idiots eat that nasty vegan garbage. For every animal they don't eat, I'll eat three.

Adrian, you're smarter than that. Come on.

I think I'll have a delicious baby cow sandwich.

Do you kill it yourself or...?
AdrianK9 Activity: 6 / 485
Joined: 16 Feb 2016 ♂
 :-(
2 May 2016  #75

Vegetarianism was not created by Nazi Germany, please...

I never said they were - I stated that they were some of first people to create animal welfare laws.

As to Hitler being a vegetarian, this is VERY debatable.

I know - I am only stating what Goring wrote in his private diary. He also wrote in his diary that Hitler planned to ban slaughterhouses once the war ended,

This is all political, Adrian. The nazis needed to work on their image

Actually no, the Nazis passed animal welfare laws both before they were the majority group in Parliament as well as after they were the only group in government. Many of the top Nazis, especially Hitler and Goring were legitimately concerned about animal rights.

community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19960201&slug=2311809

Adrian, you're smarter than that. Come on.

Thanks Polson that's very nice of you but I was just joking. Although I do love bacon wrapped filet mignon as well as chicken, beef, veal, pork chops, fish, bison, turkey, etc. I honestly don't feel like I've had a good meal unless it has meat in it. The protein helps build muscle. I'd fell hungry all the time if all I ate was salad and tofu.

Also, tofu is nearly tasteless. I've tried tofu-turkey and tofu-bacon. It tastes nothing like the real thing. The only veggie food I really like actually is veggie burgers which is weird because I don't eat normal hamburgers (I think I've literally eaten maybe a dozen in my whole life) as ground beef grosses me out.

You can even get lion meat - exoticmeatmarkets.com/exoticmeats.html - it costs $5k for 4 ounces

Do you kill it yourself or...?

No I don't live on a farm. Although I love animals, I wouldn't keep a cow as a pet but rather keep to provide food.

The 'guiltless grill' restaurants and vegans who say 'meat is murder' and criticize others for eating meat are the worst. Guiltless grill I mean really, so what I'm supposed to feel guilty for eating meat? They think that by only eating wheat grains and tofu that they're going to save the world and end cruelty to animals. Well actually, millions of animals each year are killed by white and soy bean combines each year. So the very same foods that they claim are so good for animal welfare actually results in millions of rabbits and other small animals having their heads crushed.
Polson Activity: 6 / 1,899
Joined: 9 May 2007 ♂
 
2 May 2016  #76

I stated that they were some of first people to create animal welfare laws.

Good for their image ;) But it has nothing to do with vegetarianism/veganism today.

He also wrote in his diary that Hitler planned to ban slaughterhouses once the war ended

I wouldn't care much about what a guy who supposedly wanted to ban slaughterhouses for animals but created slaughterhouses for humans said ;)

Thanks Polson that's very nice of you but I was just joking.

Phew! ;)

I honestly don't feel like I've had a good meal unless it has meat in it.

I understand. Habits. You were born and raised with meat at every meal (more or less). That's probably the hardest part to get over. But it wasn't hard for me. The moment I saw the piece of meat in my plate not as just food but as the (bloody) part of a sensible being who had had a miserable life and a cruel death, I had no problem to quit eating meat.

I'd fell hungry all the time if all I ate was salad and tofu.

That's true. Tofu alone is quite tasteless. But if you know how to cook it (and what to cook it with), it can replace meat.

I almost never eat tofu anyway.

veggie burgers

I've had a veggie kebab lately (with seitan), very nice.

They think that by only eating wheat grains and tofu that they're going to save the world and end cruelty to animals.

They don't eat just that, but yes, they're more likely to "save the world and end cruelty to animals" than the persons who don't act.

Well actually, millions of animals each year are killed by white and soy bean combines each year.

There's a HUGE difference between killing animals by accident and a system that "breeds" and kills them ON PURPOSE by billions every year.

Human consumption intentionally kills over 1,000 BILLION animals every year. If this is not a massacre, what is it?
Also, I'm pretty sure that most of the world production of soy beans is intended to livestock, not humans. So if you think about it, by eating meat, you kill animals twice: the rabbits in soy bean crops and the cows in industrial farms ;)
AdrianK9 Activity: 6 / 485
Joined: 16 Feb 2016 ♂
 :-(
2 May 2016  #77

But it has nothing to do with vegetarianism/veganism today.

Never said they did - I stated they were among the first to form animal welfare laws which groups like PETA fight for. PETA stands for People for Ethical Treatment of Animals

hey're more likely to "save the world and end cruelty to animals" than the persons who don't act.

You don't have to be a vegetarian to put a dent into animal cruelty. Also, this is a practice that wouldn't end even if half the people in the world became vegetarians - for one you'd still have products and medicines being tested on animals. I think I'd rather have a new drug tested on a rat than a human being. I mean yeah it sucks, but it's a necessary evil. I'm not advocating cruelty to animals, far from it as I have pets and I love animals, but even other animals are cruel to each other. Ever see a cat catch a mouse? The cat tortures it for hours before it kills it. Also, some of the more extreme PETA types are against milking cows and many vegans are against drinking milk - but actually it's harmful for the cow if they aren't milked.

What are the pro's and con's though of being a vegan or even vegetarian? Vegetarian I can understand - there's hundreds of millions, perhaps even over 1 billion, vegetarians as many Hindus in India are vegetarians - plus add all the other vegetarians around the world.

Vegan though? I don't know that seems too difficult.

Here's a source arguing against vegan diets:
authoritynutrition.com/top-5-reasons-why-vegan-diets-are-a-terrible-idea
2 others -
empoweredsustenance.com/is-vegan-healthy
chriskresser.com/why-you-should-think-twice-about-vegetarian-and-vegan-diets

It looks like missing out on vitamins and minerals, especially b12, are the biggest concerns. However, it does state that blood pressure, diabetes, and cancer risk is lowered. I'd imagine that vegetarians probably have no issues with fiber intake either.

See in North America, it would probably be a good healthy choice to be vegetarian or maybe even vegan. Our food, especially our meat, is disgusting. Unless you buy it from a deli, farmer's market, or some specialty shop you're getting hormone infused, antibiotic, processed crap, and even the meat in specialty deli's isn't even close to the same as that in Europe. The food in the EU is just so much healthier and better tasting - even bland foods like yogurt.

Quite frankly, I just can't ever see myself giving up meat, nor do I really want to. If I gave up eating meat
for even a week, I'd probably eat like pasta, potatoes, rice, etc. and probably gain weight thanks to carbs and still feel hungry all the time. I work out pretty often and I usually do cardio only as a warmup and mainly do 2 sets of 5-7 reps with high weights. I don't take steroids or creatine - a protein based diet is my steroid haha.

Human consumption intentionally kills over 1,000 BILLION animals every year. If this is not a massacre, what is it?

Animals eat each other too - it's part of nature. I don't think a wolf or a bear would be quite as satisfied with a bowl of tofu than a plump dead deer.

I don't know, I just don't see much of a point to being vegan especially if Poland already has such wonderful food that isn't treated with hormones, antibiotics, and all sorts of other garbage like the food in N. America.
Polson Activity: 6 / 1,899
Joined: 9 May 2007 ♂
 
3 May 2016  #78

I stated they were among the first to form animal welfare laws which groups like PETA fight for.

Unfortunately, no other governments had had the guts to form such ethical laws since the nazis, pity ;)

You don't have to be a vegetarian to put a dent into animal cruelty.

Probably not. But I read somewhere that we eat like 7,000 animals in a lifetime. That's still 7,000 lifes spared when you're a vegetarian.
Or, if you prefer, 7,000 deaths you won't participate in. That's quite something, especially if you like animals ;)

I think I'd rather have a new drug tested on a rat than a human being.

Indeed, vegetarians/vegans don't expect cruelty to just disappear. They want to minimize it as much as possible.
As to animal testing, alternative methods exist. I'm not saying we could avoid 100% of all animal experiments, but some cruel experiments really could and should be avoided.

even other animals are cruel to each other. Ever see a cat catch a mouse?

True. But there's something nice about humans: we have moral/ethics. We don't do just what we want. We are responsible beings (or at least we're supposed to). Responsability is the key word here I think. I'm not shocked when a lion catches and kills a antelope, but I am when I see humans treating animals like they were furniture from IKEA, that we can "produce", kill, disassemble and stock.

(Actually, furniture from IKEA may receive a better treatment than the animals we eat)

Also, some of the more extreme PETA types are against milking cows and many vegans are against drinking milk

Vegans reject all animal products. The thing is: as every (mammal) female, cows don't produce milk all the time. They have milk only when they have to feed their calf. In the dairy industry, cows are inseminated every year, so they can "produce" a calf (and MILK). The separation of the cow and its calf happens ASAP after birth (which, apparently, make them scream and look for each other for days) so we can get as much milk as possible. If the calf is a male, it will only live a few months and then be slaughtered. If it's a female, it will become like its mother and have a short and exhausting life.

A cow can live about 20 years in the wild. Dairy cows in the dairy industry do not live more than 5-6 years. As soon as they "produce" less, they are transformed into minced meat for hamburgers.

Vegans are not crazy. They're actually very logical... ;)

What are the pro's and con's though of being a vegan or even vegetarian?

Becoming vegetarian is actually easy. Turning vegan is a bit harder, but probably more rewarding.
Pro's and con's, I don't know, it depends. Becoming vegetarian was probably the best decision of my life (so far). I can't find any serious con. It's all good to me. The food is diverse, rich, tasty, and healthy (I eat more organic food now than when I was an omnivore). And it feels so much better to know that what you eat hasn't caused any pain.

It looks like missing out on vitamins and minerals, especially b12, are the biggest concerns.

I think vegetarians and vegans generally have a more diverse (and quality) diet than omnivorous people. They eat more fruits, vegetables, legumes, cereals. The vitamin and mineral intake is generally good. But yes, as any diet, you can miss out on some vitamins and minerals.

Vitamin B12 is a famous "problem". But it can be easily fixed.
Various studies have shown that vegetarians are healthier (and live longer apparently) than omnivorous people. Vegans do even better...

If I gave up eating meat
for even a week, I'd probably eat like pasta, potatoes, rice, etc. and probably gain weight thanks to carbs and still feel hungry all the time.

I think I read somewhere that there could be some sort of drug addiction with meat... ;)
I can share my own experience. Ever since I'm a vegetarian, I don't feel hungry all the time, and I haven't gained much weight.

I think our body adapts to what we give it (food).
One more thing: there are "famous" vegetarian/vegan bodybuilders. But to be honest, I don't know if they take steroids or any other food supplement ;)

Animals eat each other too - it's part of nature.

True. But we're no lions or wolves or cats. We are humans. We can adapt, think, make the difference between good and bad, and change our habits to suit our moral/ethics. I really like wolves, but I don't expect them to do anything like that ;)

Poland already has such wonderful food that isn't treated with hormones, antibiotics, and all sorts of other garbage like the food in N. America.

Mm, I wouldn't be so sure about that. Our meat industry (in the whole EU including Poland (very probably)) also uses all sorts of hormones, antibiotics, etc. Which is not surprising considering how important meat is in our culture. When you need to produce that much, I think hormones and antibiotics are inevitable at some point.

It's really late here. We'll keep talking tomorrow, if you want to ;)
AdrianK9 Activity: 6 / 485
Joined: 16 Feb 2016 ♂
 :-(
9 May 2016  #79

You know what Polson I did some research over the weekend on the food we have in the US and I always knew it was bad but I couldn't believe the scale of it. I could go and on but my posts are already really long. I've seen the pictures of feed lots and even drove past a few while I was in college. My dad worked in a juice producing factory (there was constantly rats scurrying all over the place and would frequently get caught inside the huge juice vats) so I know it's gross. I didn't realize the extent of it - I knew it was bad with meat but I didn't realize it was just as bad with soy, corn, vegetables, etc.
Anyway, it would appear that the majority of soy and it seems like corn and lots of other plants all come from one company - Monsanto. The problem is, if a farmer wants to grow soy or corn in the US they're essentially forced to buy seeds from Monsanto and use Monsanto chemicals. The non-GMO type of farmers don't really stand a chance because they constantly get threatened by lawsuits for patent infringement. A Canadian court ruled that if a farmer's crop is contaminated even 1% by Monsanto's soy (keep in mind pollen can travel even up to 500 miles), they are found to be in breach of Monsanto's patent infringement (Monsanto owns the patent on GMO soy and several other GMO crops). The worst thing is, soy and corn are modified to make 100's of different foods and products. It's almost impossible to pick up a product that doesn't have at least 1 of the following - high fructose corn syrup, xanthan gum, saccharin, etc. I mean literally everything we eat is basically modified corn - potato chips, aspirin, yogurt, ketchup, mayonnaise, Coca Cola, etc. I mean literally everything is run on corn now - they even feed corn to cows which is totally unnatural.

It's the same thing, even worse possibly with soy - well over 90% of the US soybean crop is GMO. That means things like tofu, miso, soymilk, and a lot of ice creams and candies contain GMO soy. So it would appear that actually a lot of the vegan diet is just as filled with GMO stuff as a regular omnivore's diet - possibly even more since vegans tend to eat so much soy.

It seems like if you want to really eat healthy it's rather difficult and can get expensive - especially if you're in the US or Canada. You're really limited to just a few specialty stores and even then it's been proven that GMO crops cross pollinate non GMO crops. At least in Poland, GMO food is labeled - there's no labeling for GMO food or meat from cloned animals in the US. There's millions of dollars that have been spent to prevent laws from these from passing. Only some rather obscure foods like alfalfa, zucchini, and some squashes appear to not be majority GMO. The popular crops like soy, sugar beets, corn, canola, and even papaya are 80% GMO in the US.

The problem is that the people who are in the FDA, USDA, etc. are oftentimes people who use to work for enormous multinational companies like Monsanto, Dupont, etc. It's the same with the other branches of government - i.e. half of the treasury people is people who use to work for Goldman or Chase, the FDA and CDC is filled with people who use to work for big pharma, and with the food industry and the regulatory agencies that are supposed to control it it's no different.
jon357 Activity: 53 / 10,844
Joined: 15 Mar 2012 ♂
 
9 May 2016  #80

True. But there's something nice about humans: we have moral/ethics.

This sums it up really. Whether you like meat or you don't, animals are raised in appalling conditions to be slaughtered.




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