Poland will take half a century to catch up with the West

Do you still use your brain sometimes or only swallow what GW and TVN tells you ?


Do you know that Polish farmers get only 1/3 of subsidies "western" farmers get ? You know what that is ? Unfair competition EU is supposed to fight against so much. This is sh*t, wasted money, It would be much better for Poland If the whole CAP didn't exist at all.

Other "Europeans funds" ? Here we go, in 2008 Poland paid 12 billion PLN into the common budget and we got 2.6 billion EUR. Thank you very much.

Although I don't share in Greg's radical view of the EU, I do believe that Polish farmers get a raw deal when it comes to agricultural funding. Scottish farmers are so much richer than their Polish counterparts. Just look at the cars they drive and the houses they have.

Greg, I don't think you are truly aware of the true rotation of money within the EU. Go and check out fund donations within the IT sphere alone. Read numerous sources and you will see that your figures are somewhat skewed.

On average people use only 10% of the capacity of their brains. I think I also suit this group.
I am not sure about you, though.... :):):):):)


Yes, I do. But you seem not to know it. :):):)

Let me repeat my former question: Do you know how much money a Polish farmer gets for one hectar? I know farmers who have 100 hectars of land. What do you know about their income from EU funds?


Hey ,why don`t you check your data before you post such rubbish??? :):):)


I suppose any money is better than no money, isn`t it right?

It always amuses me how people make opinions about EU without asking or consulting those really interested. The same is here: guys bark against EU without any knowledge what a typical Polish farmer thinks about it.

I agree, pawian. I refer you again to the issue of subsidiarity. Many decisions should be taken locally which are not. It always strikes me how bureaucrats assume the wealth of knowledge when thay have probably never been on a farm in their lives. Not in a working capacity anyhow.

Some money is better than no money, yes, but it depends on what you give too.

Why did I say it is nonsense?

It is true that Poland had to pay 3 billion euros to the European budget in 2008. Every year this amount gets higher. But this is the result of growing Polish economy and GNP. Besides, big Poland pays 3 billion while tiny Denmark, Sweden, Greece (5 million people in each ?) pay .....3 billion too.

If you thought for a while you would see that countries pay according to their wealth and Poland, as a developing one, still pays less than others.

Besides, the income from European funds counterweighs our payments. In 2008 we are in the black by 8 billion euros.

Total nonsense.

Let's take 2 companies (A and B), the same sector, the same size etc.

A get 3 million a year from the government, B gets 1 million. Now should B be happy that It gets a million or rather should worry that A get's 3 times as much, so can sell below the costs and f*ck A out of the business ? I beg you, enlight me with your wisdom...


What ? You say that my figures are wrong ? Prove It.


Stop polluting the living space of real humans. Thank you.

I think money to the industry as a whole is what pawian meant, Greg.

Pawian is referring to the proportionality of payments, Greg. Poland doesn't cough up its fair share.

Fish heads? LOL Well, you eat crap, sorry, carp.

What's the difference ?

He was happy that the industry got money at all. He wasn't looking at the unfair allocation of funds. He was making a symbolic gesture (didn't BB slaughter you for that word? LOL) that it's better to be acknowledged than to be ignored. He even went on to mention their voice afterwards and how EU bureaucrats neglect it.

It is a simple man`s wisdom. You will understand it too. :):):)

How much do you pay for a kilogram of farmer`s produce, e.g, carrots, in Poland?

1.5 zloty.

How much does a Brit pay for a kilo of carrots?
woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/cost.html

0.70 pound sterling.

So, in Polish currency, a Brit pays about 3 zlotys for the amount of carrots that a Pole can buy for 1.5 zloty.

Dear Grzesiu, do you understand now why a Polish farmer gets less subsidies than a British/Danish/Dutch/ German etc etc etc one?

If he got as much as his Western counterparts, he would buy out all carrots available in Poland. There would be no carrots left for me and you. :):):):):)

After all carrots are gone, we will have to import them from Europe. At 3 zlotys per kilo.

Do you want to pay 3 zlotys for carrots?

I don`t.

Isn`t it simple????


Why are you talking only about Euro budget, stressing the fact that Poland pays more into it than it receives?

Why don`t you look at the total amount of the financial aid which Poland negotiated by K. Marcinkiewicz a few years ago? Don`t you remember his famous Yes! Yes! Yes! ????

It is strange you have forgotten your idols` achievements... :):):)

Let me remind you: For years 2007-2013 we were granted 67 billion euros.

And I showed him that economically "getting money" that way is sh*t...


But we're talking about business, there's no place for "symbolic gestures" over there.

You were gibbering on about 2 companies, Greg. Pawian was discussing that it's better to receive sth as a symbolic gesture than to be ignored and left out in the cold.

Oh, Greg, we are all aware of the mechanics of EU funding. Just some more than others;)

In 2008 a Polish farmer got about 600 zlotys per hectar of traditional agriculture, e.g., cereals. Makes about 150 euros.
korbanek.pl/domhandlowy/pl/doplaty/doplaty_bezposrednie.html

How much does a Western farmer get in 2008 for growing cereal? It was about 300 euros in 2006.

I provided a simple model, which even a moron should understand. Replace "company" B with Polish farming sector and A with those of EU15 and you've got "industry level".

Now food in Poland is not really much cheaper than in the west anymore but anyway... so what ?

Dear... pawian, you are either joking or you are economically completely illiterate and shouldn't humiliate yourself anymore talking about these issues.

Again... If you don't agree with my figures then prove It.

Of course I am. Have you had any doubts about it???? :):):):)

Dear Grzesiu, I don`t treat seriously people who don`t know the difference between payroll, wages and salaries. Questions like that prove that your knowledge of economic issues is rather basic. :):):)

Hence my joking about carrots.

I hope you don`t mind. :):):):)

But if you thought a little, you would understand what I meant because there was a grain of truth in those carrots.

But you don`t want. :(

Sure I don't.


After trying to "think a little" at your level I think what you "meant" was "they have higher costs, so they should get more", which is a kind of logic, which could have some use in case of social benefits but not in case of normal business activities, here that's nothing else than unfair competition.

Gadał dziad do obrazu.....

I have just proven it in my previous post. In the years 2007-2013 Poland is entitled to receive 67 billion euros from European budget.

Look at 2007. We paid 2.7 billion euros to the EU budget but we received 7.8 billion from it: 3 billion for agriculture and 4.2 billion of structural funds.

We are in the black by 5 billion.

I guess now you will say that 5 billion is nothing compared to how much EU is sucking from us in other ways.... :):):):)

biznes.gazetaprawna.pl/artykuly/23872,polska_w_czolowce_beneficjentow_budzetu_ue_w_zeszlym_roku_dostalismy_7_8_mld_euro.html


I am afraid you forgot one important factor. Polish farmers make about 25% of Poland`s population and create about 5% of Polish GNP.

In Europe proportions are reversed.

Western farmers usually make about 5% of the population and create 20% GNP.

And..???

Does it ring a bell in Grzesiu`s head ???? :):):):)

What fair competition have you got with such proportions?????

Do you know now why Polish farmers can`t get the same subsidies?


It is very adequate for my needs. And it tells a lot about me :):):):):)

the funniest thing about The EU is that we poles have to adjust to those stupid eu regulations. all the certificates issued by remarkably growing bureaucracy cost us much more than you can imagine. it's already been proved that bureaucracy generates corruption.

some of you say that if we dont like the idea of being a part of the eu, we should leave. what a brilliant idea! its a monster built by and for socialists, making big money on co2 swindle, promoting 'equality', and so on. Its a political undertaking which has nothing to do with free market and freedom. Germany pays more than they get from the common budget. Why? Because they are so stupid and pay so much for being able to travel freely all around europe? rotfl

You called "rubbish" 2008 figures provided by me but you still haven't proved me wrong.


So in fact we paid 2.7 billion and received 4.2 billion... looks like you don't understand what the CAP is. All these huge EU subsidies for agriculture sector exist to protect European farmers from cheaper competition from outside of EU. Poland outside of EU wouldn't really need that as costs here are lower and medium tariffs would be enough to protect domestic producers. But now we are in EU and what happens ? Our farmers are subsidised by EU but much less then those from EU15, so obviously that make them less competitive than they would be If there was a real free market of agriculture goods inside of EU without any subsidies and limits of production, which they imposed on us. So saying that we should be happy that they "give us billions for agriculture" is a total nonsense, we would be much better without that stupid system. EU legalized unfair competion (something Polish governments were doing with shipyards and you know what happened) against the farmers from the new member states.

Nonsense. In Poland ~14% of working population are classified as farmers (often just to have KRUS insurence) and in EU15 countries agriculture is usually making 2-3% of GNP. Besides what's the difference If 200 cows or 120 hectares of land is owned by 1 person or 10 ??

Christ, what are you talking about ? I've never said that each Polish farmer should get the same money as average farmer in old EU, I'm saying that for the same quantity of goods they should get the same subsidies (and now of course they don't) or else that's unfair competition harming our economy, not any "goodies from EU".

OK enough of the CAP, let's go to the "structural funds".

From the same source you quoted:


So you see that without the CAP in 2004-2007 we "got" netto only 1-1.5 billion EUR . And in 2008 we lost netto at least a few hundred million. Really impressive result of 5 years in the "fantastic" EU. 2007 results (which "somehow" you only quoted) looked quite good because then was finalized most importent projects from 2004-2006 "programming period".


"Entitled"... with so huge burocracy and some projects being reject by Eurocrats without any serious reasons, even old EU member states with many years of experience with this whole crap are in fact using far less than 100% of funds they are "entitled to", so in case of Poland 75-80% will be a very optimistic scenerio, so that's more like 50 billion and in the same time we will pay into the common budget 25-30 billion, so we have netto +20-25 billion, so 3-3.5 billion a year, so less than 100 EUR a year per capita (and less than I am spending on chewing gums) and that's a really optimistic scenerio. Fantastic, isn't It ?

But that's not the end. We need additional a few thousand burocrats to handel these things and that cost a lot. A few % of these funds are spend on "training and promotion", so "European funds" are spend on teaching people how to use "European funds"... or on advertisments telling people how cool "European funds" are. Some of them, especially from "European Social Funds" are spent on completely ineffective and useless things, which creates some kind of "alternative economy". Add to that co2 limitis and other "goodies" and economically EU membership will be for us at best neutral.

Grzesiu, I don`t have time to answer your interesting post because I am busy somewhere else.

For the time being I have a piece of advice to you: why don`t you go to Belarus which isn`t in EU?? Under a great leader Lukashenka you will be able to buy a sack of potatoes a a few bottles of vodka every month and you will be happy without EU subsidies, regulations etc etc... :):):):)

OK, OK, forget it, just a stupid joke! :):):)

Please don't move this to random chat, Mods. Seriously, more lightening up is needed. My sincere hope is that Greg laughs after watching this. I promise to get back on topic after this one-off posting.

youtube.com/watch?v=yjmLE7paJU8
this is what Bush had to say on the matter ;) "I just don't know", LOL

But this isn't for real... is It ??

Well, you made me laugh Greg so the objective was achieved ;) ;)

Poland is getting more expensive when it comes to food, you are right Greg.

However, you can still pick up quality fruit&veg for good prices at stalls. I like that.

Read this book and you will see that this thread amongst alot of others on this forum are irrelevant.

amazon.co.uk/Meaning-21st-Century-Blueprint-Ensuring/dp/190391986X/ref =sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230411431&sr=8-1

Read about 2012 new age bull shiites and you will realize that everything is irrelevant...

Perhaps...but I really recommend this book.

Try it.

Poland pretty much has what it needs now, so why the need to catch up?

mf.gov.pl/dokument.php?const=1&dzial=408&id=42178

Maybe. Explain it to me...


Polish farmers won`t need subisidies when out of Union?
OK, again I need to tell you: go and tell it to a Polish farmer. If you come back without a pitched fork in your back, it means you are a lucky guy. :):):)

I see some inconsistency. In a previous quote of yours you said that Polish costs are lower. How does it make Polish farmers less competitive when they get lower subsidies if their costs are lower too? I don`t understand it ....


:):):) Does it mean we should leave the Union because farmer`s subsidies are unfair?

I disagree. The costs of agricultural production are lower in Poland, that is why the subsidies are lower too. E..g, how much does a Polish farmer pay to a hired worker who picks up strawberries in the farmer`s field? 1 zloty per kilo.

How much is the wage in the West? 0.80 euro = 3 zlotys per kilo.


Yes, that`s right. I had old data. Sorry.


Subsidies are not given for a quantity of goods. They are given for units of arable land.

But if you mention quantity, do you realise that Polish field efficiency in much lower than Western?


Proofs?

What did you expect? Paradise right away? :):):)


My advice is: become a teacher then... :):):)

Economically neutral is still OK.
But don`t forget geopolitics and it is even more importnat than economy. Do you ever study the history of Poland? Why did Poland lose all major wars and risings for the past 200 years?

It is simple if farmer from EU15 gets 300 Euro donation and our gets 150 Euro to the same product and we are on the same common market ... our farmer is less competitive and it would be better if there was no donations ...