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Poland will take half a century to catch up with the West


pawian 224 | 24,465  
2 Jan 2009 /  #151
Are you a farmer? Are you a representative of Polish farmers? A delegate? Do you speak on Polish farmers` behalf? :):):)

If not, take a Polish farmer, bring him/her here and let them voice their opinion on EU. What do you think it will be??? :)

Come on, be reasonable. The EU gives subsidies to 400.000 farmers in France and 600.000 in Italy.
To how many in Poland?

1.5 million.

Do you understand now why 1.5 million Polish farmers get less money than 400.000 in France?

Besides, when such countries as Ukraine join EU one day, will you also defend millions of Ukrainian peasants and farmers` right to fair subsidies? I greatly doubt that....
Prince 15 | 590  
2 Jan 2009 /  #152
I am not agains EU in economcal terms ... but at this point G. was right. Our farmers get less that those from EU15 (donnation per "hektar" is just lower in new EU than in EU15) so they are less copetitive.
pawian 224 | 24,465  
2 Jan 2009 /  #153
I am not negating the fact they get less.
Naturally, it influences the competitiveness of Polish farmers.

But, consider the figures. 1.5 million Polish farmers versus 400.000 in France.

Do you see the difference?

Next. Consider the hypothetical year 2020 when Ukraine joins EU. 1 million subsidised Polish farmers versus 5 million Ukrainian ones. Will you pay more tax to sponsor 5 million newcomers.

Will you cry out about unfair distribution of funds then? Come on, give me a break. :):):):)

Besides, I asked you if you represent Polish farmers.

You don`t.

Look at this chart showing the support for the EU and particularly for agricultural subsidies (the first two columns, country on the left, city on the right)



PS. Good night. I am turning in.
Prince 15 | 590  
2 Jan 2009 /  #154
Ok farmers get donnation per hectare. Famer in France with 50 hectars get more than our with 50 hectars. We have more small farms but they get less than farms with the same size in France... This is my point... So they are less competitive on common market... Our farmers would be in better situaton without this system is whole EU ... they would be more competitive.

I'll add that to the 2012 this donations will be equal but now they aren't ...
Kamil_pl - | 59  
3 Jan 2009 /  #155
This year polish farmers get 75% of that what eu farmers get. It increases 5% every year.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,848  
3 Jan 2009 /  #156
I'll add that to the 2012 this donations will be equal but now they aren't ...

Yeah, 3 long years more to wait to reach equality with the other countries who paid so much more than Poland INTO the common pot for many years now, how horrible!
pawian 224 | 24,465  
3 Jan 2009 /  #157
:):):)

So they are less competitive on common market... Our farmers would be in better situaton without this system is whole EU ... they would be more competitive.

So, you propose that Poland leaves EU. Polish farmers don`t get subsidies. Will you talk to them and explain where they should sell their produce when EU markets are be blocked by high tariffs and duty tax imposed for non-EU countries ???

If you come back alive from the talks, you are a lucky guy... :):):):)They are waiting for you:
Prince 15 | 590  
3 Jan 2009 /  #158
Yeah, 3 long years more to wait to reach equality with the other countries who paid so much more than Poland INTO the common pot for many years now, how horrible!

There is plan to change whole system after 2012 ... so I doubt that we are going to see this equalness in this case.

Anny way in my opinion in terms of develpomlent EU is good for Poland but in this point G. was right.

So, you propose that Poland leaves EU.

I am "farmer" myself because I have land and I have the cheapest possible health insurance ... but I do something much different for living and I live in Poznań :) other farmer does someting on my land I just take money...

Anny way you have strage attitude... and you are wrong when we look on details.
pawian 224 | 24,465  
3 Jan 2009 /  #159
Anny way in my opinion in terms of develpomlent EU is good for Poland but in this point G. was right.

Unfortunately he isn`t. One of the reasons EU was introduced in Poland was invoking major structural changes in this country. I mean the transformation of Polish peasants into serious farmers. Now there are too many peasants who possess 5 hectars of land and are unable to generate any decent income from it, they are only able to live from hand to mouth, like in 19 century. Thye are primitive and poor, and subsidies won`t help them much.

Polish agriculture must consolidate. 5 hectar farmlands must be gone or better say, they will be incorporated by larger farms run by serious farmers, who know languages and are able to operate on a European scale, not within the perimeter to the nearest fresh produce market where they get shit money.
Prince 15 | 590  
3 Jan 2009 /  #160
In my opinion foreign language isn't the most important thing when you are framer. To reform our agricultural system we need to change KRUS because it makes produces milions of "farmers" who have business or work in other industry but choose KRUS because it is the cheapest. In my opinion this new system is bad for farmers because this is kind of social benefit and this money not always are invested... In my opinion those Polish farmers who produce something would be much stronger if there was no donnations ... I support many things in EU but this sysyem should be changed ... it is my private opinion.
pawian 224 | 24,465  
3 Jan 2009 /  #161
I am "farmer" myself because I have land and I have the cheapest possible health insurance ... but I do something much different for living and I live in Poznań :) other farmer does someting on my land I just take money...

Anny way you have strage attitude...

:):):) Funny what you say about my strange attitude in the light of your earlier revelation. :):):)

and you are wrong when we look on details.

Really? I have an impression it is the opposite.

But don`t worry, it must be my teacher predilection - I just know that I always know the best. :):):):):)
BTW, I have students from rural regions in the classes where I teach. We talk a lot. They don`t think sth is unfair with EU.

So, again, are you talking in the name of Polish farmers?
Prince 15 | 590  
3 Jan 2009 /  #162
No I am not talking in the name of Polish farmers but I know reality and I use all opportunities. I have some pieces of land in different parts of Poland and I am "farmer" :) I never worked on farm ...

You support ealir pensions for teachers you support donations for farmers ect. You are socialist.

Really? I have an impression it is other guys, barking against Union, including you, who are wrong.

We are part of EU and as I know that this system will be changed in close future ...

So, again, are you talking in the name of Polish farmers?

Are you talking in the name of Polish faremres ?
pawian 224 | 24,465  
3 Jan 2009 /  #163
In my opinion those Polish farmers who produce something would be much stronger if there was no donnations ... I support many things in EU but this sysyem should be changed ... it is my private opinion.

Oh, I see. No donations, no subsidies for anybody in EU?

Very well. In that case the process of land consolidation in Poland will be faster. 5 hectar farms will collapse earlier than with subsidies which still help them vegetate.

So, instead of evolution, you propose revolution.

You support ealir pensions for teachers you support donations for farmers ect. You are socialist.

:):):):):)

Who told you I support earlier pensions for teachers? You must have mistaken me with somebody else....

I am not a socialist.

We are part of EU and as I know that this system will be changed in close future

OK.

Are you talking in the name of Polish faremres ?

:):) Hmm, I live in this country and I know farmers` opinions. They are for subsidies, even if they are unequal.
Prince 15 | 590  
3 Jan 2009 /  #164
Very well. In that case the process of land consolidation in Poland will be faster. 5 hectar farms will collapse earlier than with subsidies which still help them vegetate.

The problem is that this most of this farms don't exist in reality ... most of this people work somewhere but it is better to be in KRUS (as farmer) than in ZUS but it is problem with our Polish system not EU system ... Changes in KRUS would help a lot.

Those farmers who produce on export would prefere no subsidies than not equal subsidies ...
JustysiaS 13 | 2,238  
3 Jan 2009 /  #165
In my opinion this new system is bad for farmers because this is kind of social benefit and this money not always are invested... In my opinion those Polish farmers who produce something would be much stronger if there was no donnations ...

i think you should at least appreciate the fact that Poland is actually getting something good from being in EU, not just adjusting all the prices to what they are in the rest of the EU with the Polish salaries still at rock bottom. i know many people who survive and benefit greatly from those handouts and donations, they develop their farms, get more animals, buy land and plant forests, not mentioning adjusting their facilities to EU norms, to what they should be. they deserve the donations even if it's just for that last thing i mentioned. everything's clean, modern, animals get better care and quality of life. without the donations many small farmers would lose everything and have no way of keeping their property AND getting any income to support themselves.

farmers who get donations also get insepctions every now and again to check if they actually do and have what they say and if the money they are getting goes where it should go. you can't blame people for trying to make a living.
Prince 15 | 590  
3 Jan 2009 /  #166
In my opinion this system spoiled our farmers. I am realy gratful for possiblity for our farmers to invest in their infastructure it is very good thing (Germany thank you ! ). Donnations to land are wrong the same as KRUS is wrong ... it is kind of social rent for small farmers ... who work in different inductries (it is not possible to live on such piece of land) but hold this land only for donnation (per hectars) and health insurance (our Polish KRUS which is very bad for our budged)...
JustysiaS 13 | 2,238  
3 Jan 2009 /  #167
unfortunately most people can't survive on their salaries and have to look for extra income. and if they are doing it out of greed then sooner or later they will have an inspection and get caught. either way, ZUS is unfair and it killed off many small businesses, people struggle with repayments for years after their businesses are no longer on the market.

Lukasz, ty jesteś jak pies ogrodnika - sam nie zje i nikomu też nie da. Live and let live.
Prince 15 | 590  
3 Jan 2009 /  #168
cheap KRUS means expenive ZUS ...
De PEREIRA - | 13  
18 Feb 2009 /  #169
I have been living in England for 6.5 years and each year when I come to Poland ( Krakow) I can see so many changes..... I know that it is partly due to help from UE but I don't see big difference between life in Poland and UK.

Visit Szczecin and see the Ghetto's you will be suprised.
Sokrates 8 | 3,345  
18 Feb 2009 /  #170
Szczecin has ghettos ?
miranda  
18 Feb 2009 /  #171
I am "farmer" myself because I have land and I have the cheapest possible health insurance ... but I do something much different for living and I live in Poznań :) other farmer does someting on my land I just take money...

To reform our agricultural system we need to change KRUS because it makes produces milions of "farmers" who have business or work in other industry but choose KRUS because it is the cheapest.

are you a recipient of KRUS then?
miranda  
18 Feb 2009 /  #173
so you are abusing the system then and being proud of it. Very patriotic. LOL.
Prince 15 | 590  
18 Feb 2009 /  #174
I am not entiteld to ZUS. I speculate on currency, futures ect, I pay 18% tax form this activity but I don't have insurace. I have land I pay KRUS insurance.

I don't have company and I am not employee I am not entieled to ZUS.
miranda  
18 Feb 2009 /  #175
so you are taking advantage of the loophole in the system then.
Prince 15 | 590  
18 Feb 2009 /  #176
I pay all taxes I should pay I am not entiteled to ZUS I don't want to have company or work for somebody to have ZUS.
Juche 9 | 292  
18 Feb 2009 /  #177
Poland's history is one of getting ripped of - by outsiders and by the Polish upper class itself. As long as the upper crust keeps skimming off the top Poland will never catch up to the prosperous West, where with a few exceptions, kleptocracy is a little more frowned upon.

The words of Justice minister Czuma's son pretty much say it all: to paraphrase - nepotism is normal in Poland and it is a good thing, because without it politicians would never get anything done. This from the son of deadbeat who left the US in a hurry with the shirt on his back because of liens on his house and such due to unpaid bills...and this is the current Minister of Justice in Poland.

We will see pigs fly before Poland becomes another Holland, Germany, or France in this lifetime.
samsmith 3 | 23  
18 Feb 2009 /  #178
crotches cut ? never heard of this before then again never been to poland. can you explain please ?
miranda  
18 Feb 2009 /  #179
good point
lesser 4 | 1,311  
18 Feb 2009 /  #180
We will see pigs fly before Poland becomes another Holland, Germany, or France in this lifetime.

Poland has a lot to improve, no doubt about that. However above mentioned states are not any examples to follow. Especially France!

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