History / Solidarnosc (Two Decembers) [11]

Papiez,

Try reading The Polish Revolution: Solidarity by Timothy Garton Ash, published by Yale Publishing in 1983; it is a very good book, and he was there during the whole events of 1980 - 1982 and he provides a nice history as well unfolding of events.

Also try, From Solidarity to Martial Law: The Polish Crisis of 1980 - 1981 aa documentary history edited by Andrezej Pacskowski and Malcolm Byrne, published by CEU Press in 2007; also a very good analytical text.

Good luck,

Henry.

History / Russia: Poland responsible for WW II [300]


Dear Barbara, when will the revisionist historians give up on trying to reinvent historical fact?!

Fact: Hitler wanted to level Poland and Russia, and then inhabit those conquered lands with Germans = Germania.

Fact: Poland did not start the second world war, nor did Russia.

Opine: Has the world gone so ignorant that no one can read and use analytics, specifically the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact of '39?!?! Suddenly, we should go back to believing Goebbels' propaganda about 4 Polish soldiers taking over a NAZI broadcasting station?!

Conjecture: I know some people here actually believe that [opine] story.

Opine: I have always found the Russians/Soviets blame everyone else (i.e., Katyń), so I am not surprised to hear this; my only surprise is that it is in 2009 and not 1979. 80+ years of oppression in Russia, and those people cling to what they know, and perhaps want. If Russia wants to clear its tablets of history, why not admit to the Lenin/Stalin purges? 55+ million of your own people, Russia, and you still choose to ignore it. What next, America was responsible for the Kursk "mishap"? England was responsible for Chernobyl?

Want/Wish/Will: Sometimes I wish an "Uncle Joe" would come back and clean house in modern Russia.

News / Lwow - Eaglets Cemetary [7]

I am not familiar with what happened there, can you fill me in... was this World War 1 / Polish-Soviet War of 1918-1921 or WW2? I take it children protected the city?

Henry

History / Any apologies about Sikorski's 'murder'? [95]

Thanks sjam... I did not have the time to pull the appropriate reference.

Henry

History / German Russian aliance durring WWII - Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact [7]

Prince,

I am not sure if there is a photo of Molotov after he died, but there is lovely photo of von Ribbentrop after he was hanged by the IMT in '46... maybe you can post that one. Call it "justice".

Henry

History / Any apologies about Sikorski's 'murder'? [95]

Fair enough, but what you see is what you get on the internet; I think you should have said that both Churchill and Roosevelt could not face up to Stalin... that would have been more accurate.

Academics make careers predicated on any one of the Big Three Conferences; I believe there were over twenty in all. It was all about winning over the axis, and shaping the post-war world; obviously consessions were made by USSR, UK and USA in these conferences. It is easy to take a revisionist viewpoint and second guess other's decisions, demands and disillusionment.

History / Any apologies about Sikorski's 'murder'? [95]


Are you gentlemen that niave, or is it hard for you to realize that a superpower (USSR) would negotiate during a wartime conference? Is it that hard for you to believe Eastern Europe would be carved-up, and the US and UK would make consessions in order to keep USSR in the war and an ally?

Add Churchill to the 'could not face up to Stalin' crew.

Furthermore Churchill, like Roosevelt, knew the Soviets committed the crime at Katyń - well documented in the Sir O'Malley (UK) Dispatches.

Henry.

History / Katyn executioners named, protected by Russian authorties [35]

"If we forget them, may God forget us..."

History / Pan-Slavic dreams of Polish/Russian cooperation. [12]

Sasha,

How old is that propaganda posted you posted here? I say it is a "propaganda poster" because I see the White Eagle without crown; therefore, it is the emblem of the Poland occupied by the Soviets. It reminds me of the propaganda posters NAZI Germany used to put out with the Axis as friends theme.

H

History / Has anybody read: Heart of Europe: The Past in Poland's Present [6]

As a graduate student of History, Davies is what I desire to become withn Polish history.

I read the book, have it in my collection, and I think Norman Davies is the top-Polish Historian of our era. He is to Polish History what J P Taylor was to World War 1 history. Some claim Davies to be biased because of his wife's ancestry - hogwash I say. As the other gentleman above mention, Davies tells it as it is, was and might be and it might not be what we always want to hear.

Henry

History / Mass Grave in Malbork [34]

Even though Gorbachev presented Wałesa with the documents from the former USSR... including the infamous "March 5, 1940 Memorandum" with Beria's and Stalin's signature ordering the liquidation of the Poles {collectively Katyń}... ???

Even though the beginning of WW2 was well documented in Goebbel's diary...???

I understand national pride, but as a historian I am offended by your ignorance.

Maybe you will be lucky enough to have another Stalin in your nation - and maybe they'll attack and purge Georgia (which recently almost happened), as it is inhabitated by too many ignorant sheep incapable of analytical or critical thinking - then again, thinking is not the Communist way.

H

History / Mass Grave in Malbork [34]


Georgia is a non-factor in this conversation; this conversation is about events during WW2. FWIW - Georgia was nothing but another stomping ground for Uncle Joe.

You failed to provide an answer too, so please, do you really think the Poles started WW2 with the attack on the German radio station?

=)


Georgia is a non-factor in this conversation; this conversation is about events during WW2. FWIW - Georgia was nothing but another stomping ground for Uncle Joe.

You failed to provide an answer too, so please, do you really think the Poles started WW2 with the attack on the German radio station?

=)

History / Mass Grave in Malbork [34]


In America, there is an old saw that goes like, "... if it walks likes a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck - it's a duck." Now, I realize that America is not perfect and our history has some bad things in it like eminent domain with American Indians, the Civil War, racism, etc., but I can say with confidence and honesty the USA has not "purged" >50 million of our own people for the political gain of a tryannical leader du jour. Especially when those political systems continually seem to deny freedoms, control the masses with fear, and fail miserably. That being said, ConstantineK, are you really serious about the beginning of WW2?! If it is a joke, good one, you got me! If not, you are the model Soviet and Uncle Joe loves you... after killing your family for the better of the State, of course.

Here's another saw for you I read in an article, "... denial ain't a river in Egypt."

History / Mass Grave in Malbork [34]

The article infers the Red Army committed this act.

From reading this article I'd say the Soviets did it, pretty obvious - ehh comrade? ; ) I am curious, who do you think committed this act, the Poles? The Jews?! George W. Bush?!?!

History / Mass Grave in Malbork [34]

Sadly I think you are right, wildrover.

History / Help Needed Unlocking Polish History. [6]

You can get his military records, if they are still in existence, at:

Centralne Archiwum Polskiego
Blok 126
Warsaw-Rembertwo, Poland, 00-910

Give them as much factual information, such as years of service, his correct name, a copy of some Polish record and a COPY of your birth certificate. It may take a while to get a copy of the records.

Good luck.

Henry

History / Forgotten heroes of the forgotten war [8]

Just some commentary...

I think you have to draw the line somewhere. So every man who wore a SS uniform should be punished? What is the difference between SS and ground forces of the SA or air of Luftwaffe or Kreigsmarine or the conscripted general German Army?

Post-war a lot of NAZI senior officers who were in charge of camps, brigades, battalions, etc. were tired accordingly... though, some now in history want the ground pounders to pay as well; I do not think that is logical.

I commend the Jewish peoples and the Israeli government for searching (at vain sometimes) world-wide for surviving senior officers of the Reich in order to bring them to justice... in modern history no other government or peoples have been so angered to bring themselves vindication like the Israelis/Jews.

H

History / Europe at War 1939 - 1945. Not Simple Victory. [35]

Davies' text was released in 2006, so do I understand the premise of this thread... that his text was just released in Polish?

If yes, I find it sad that scholars waited for a translated version of the text. Not too long ago, every Ph.D. candidate [at least in the sciences] had to learn German for translation purposes.

For the sake of history, I hope my brothers and sisters doing scholarly work in Poland, can translate another language.

Henry.

History / The role of "Solidarity" in the fall of communism in Poland [15]

Try to get a copy of Potkin's text "Armageddon Averted: the Fall of the Soviet Union 1973-2000".

While there is a strong correlation between the strikes of 1970 and 1980 at Gdańsk to the fall of communism; Potkin asserts that the fall of the steel industry (world-wide) had a greater impact to the "general maliase being felt in the USSR" while western Consumerism was rising and USSR's declining due to lack of quality products, access and money/salary. Poland was the first to fall, but not the sole or even major reason why communism fell; remember there are multiple layers of problems here like politics (Warsaw Pact vs NATO) and economical models.

Wikipedia.com will point you in a good direction, but use it carefully... for background edification and references/citations.

Henry

PS I've heard many reasons, theories and notions of why communism fell in the USSR, obviously many are pro-Polish. The best one to-date is, "... when I came to Warsaw, the communists left" - Bobby Vinton.

Doru,

Another text you may want to pick up and read is Timothy Garton Ash's "The Polish Revolution" what makes this an interesting read is that he was there, real time, as the strikes were going on.

Norman Davies', "God;s Playground: A History of Poland" Volume 2 also has a well written and factual detail of what happened.

Henry

History / Władysław Sikorski remains to be exhumed for cause of death [43]


Well, fair enough, good question. I am not trying to bury anything whatsoever, as an up-and-coming Polish Historian I feel (my biases) that since the release of documents from USSR/Russia more truths will come out. Let Sikorski rest in peace... though I still believe it was all an accident and not intentional. As a historian I want/demand truths, facts and evidence and not conjecture; to piece together events in history. In academia [research] we call the former "hunches" which we end up making into "hypothese" for research.

Truthfully, of all of the things I've read, reviewed and looked over - Sikorski's death does not seem like a murder/conspiracy. I am just as hard-headed to argue against it. Also, I may be completely wrong.

I'd rather we (collectively) should put our energies into Soviet documentation: release, reading and interpretation and then mass dissemination.

H

History / Władysław Sikorski remains to be exhumed for cause of death [43]


Is she Polish?

=)

; )

H

History / Władysław Sikorski remains to be exhumed for cause of death [43]


Yes, I pride myself in being a Harvard alumnus, and I stand by my opinion Sikorski was not murdered.

Since Sikorski's untimely, and opportunistic death for the Soviets, no one has been able to provide a robust theory or evidence to prove a conspiracy... just a lot of conjecture.

I do not mean to toss insults, or be insulted, especially with my own people; I care for, and seek, the intellectual challenge. This thread, while interesting if you dig on conspiracy theories, is only adding to the folly.

H

History / Władysław Sikorski remains to be exhumed for cause of death [43]

... ah, you missed the point.

I am not a conspiracy theorist, nor do I believe Sikorski's death is a conspiracy.

Even by conspiracy/urban legend/myth standards Sikorski's death does not even rank up there. Only on a Polish, Polish-UK, Polish-US nationalistic pride level is it mentioned, in searching the web I found only one semi-credible source making an inference that Sikorski was murdered - Wikipedia.

One honest question here... if Sikorski was murdered, how come there is not a big uproar now about it at the true academic level (since we are global apologist society)? Why aren't there Ph.D. candidates and notable historians like Norman Davies or Natalie Lebedeva crying foul on this matter?

Couldn't it be as simple as "I love my country and I feel as though I was wronged? It is not always a dubious means to an end that gains are made, but an opportunity for another.

Hey, I am just saying.

H

History / Władysław Sikorski remains to be exhumed for cause of death [43]

plk123,

Yeesh - I disagree.

Yes, of course I've heard of DNA, but do you know what it stands for? How many amino acids there are? Which amino acids can be paired with each other? How many combinations are there? What is the difference between multi-strand and single-strand? Etc.

I have the pleasure of working in biotechnology; yet I love to read a good story. Especially spy stories and ones that involve conspiracies. As an undergraduate at Harvard I took a class called "Conspiracy" lectured by Prof. William H. Anderson, MD of Harvard Medical School and Harvard College. I actually raised this point with him, and in my youth I was eager to challenge him; his response was that sometimes accidents happen at opportune moments in history and a gain is achieved by the bad guy. It is not always a dubious means to an end that gains are made, but an opportunity.

This whole thread is full of quotes that charge the issue with generalizations and biases, because they are passionate about the subject -> Crow to Prince.

Let's step back here for one minute, and say that Stalin really wanted Sikorski dead, because it would make for easier manipulation in the Tehran, Potsdam, and Yalta conferences for the USSR. Stalin, the man who purged > 20 million of his own people in the interest of the Soviet Union, don't you think he'd have the NKVD / KGB do him in (less elaborately than a plane mishap) kind of like they did in Trotsky in Mexico?! Hmm? Dont'cha think it would be more practical?

I do believe in responsible history: accurate, honest, not agenda drive, and ethical. I also believe that conspiracy makes for great reading, though not intellectually challenging. Katyń was a legitimate conspiracy by academic definition, but Sikorski's death is not... neither are UFOs, Alien Autopsies, and the US Government spreading AIDS.

None of the above, or my prior statements proves anything supporting the notion that the Soviets caused the death of Sikorski; I mocked the poster I was responding too. I will assert that if the Soviets wanted him dead, they would have done it earlier, easier and probably when he was in Moscow.

Clicheś, generalizations, wants-wishes-and-will cannot reverse history nor should they be used in revisionist manner such as an Ockam's Razor for the present day; that period of history was unfortunate.

A conspiracy theorist will yell at you all day long, "I look out my window and I see a flat world; therefore, the world is flat." Socrates is rolling over in his grave and laughing.

Henry.

History / Władysław Sikorski remains to be exhumed for cause of death [43]

I did a basic internet search for an update on the exhumation of Sikorski, and came up empty. Anyone find anything out from a new junket I may have missed?

Henry

Life / Freemasons in Poland [41]


Hiram-ski, calm down! Is is a fraternal organization, and that is it! People say jekly things all the time, plus, hey he is Catholic, and the Catholic church for decades has dismissed freemasonry.

Really, freemasonry has nothing to do with religion nor is it a cult; it is a society with secrets... if you read Duncan's Ritual and you will learn all of the ritual to the Past Master degrees, 4th, 5th and 6th. You can google the ritual as well.

I was raised in Saint Paul's - Algonquin (4th South Boston Masonic District) in '92, and was in line for three years, Senior Deacon. Never had any interest in sitting in the east, but I did enjoy traveling around to other lodges in Massachusetts.

It is kind of hokey, really. The ritual is the same thing over and over... nothing new or exciting. A ritual with secrets, and regalia and garb; some guys take it too seriously, others who are older enjoy it more and see it as an opportunity to help the community and maintain a social network.

No different than the Lions, Jaycees, of Knights of Columbus, to join all you have to do is believe in a god and give the Freemasons some money. Oh yeah, like any other order, church, club, Freemasonry is about money; you can buy your way into any order 16th degree and higher like Knights Templar, York and Scottish Rites as well as The Shriners.

The old rule of "to be one, ask one" was thrown out the window because membership was dwindling due to natural attrition. Now, the local AF & AM's hold open houses to recruit men in... which I disagree with, but then again they'd implode as an organization if they did not loosen up.

Is there any help for the widow's son? Naf, kind of goofy. Conspiracy folks want to believe we rule the world... not true... but let those fruitcakes think what they want.

H

History / Władysław Sikorski remains to be exhumed for cause of death [43]


Oh sigh. = ( No, there is no conspiracy here; however, I will offer to buy you a nice Polish lunch if anything new and profound comes of this exhumation.

It was wartime, I highly doubt they'd embalm him. Too much room for speculation. What if he was hit with a hammer and sickle? What if the plane landed on its side killing only Sikorski? What if? What if?! It is all too conspiracy driven. A hunch is not a away to substantiate truth, but it makes for sexy reporting as well as fodder for conspiracy theorists. What if the remains are not there? Or broken down to carbon? Is it really Sikorski's remains in the box? <- how can you be sure 60 years later?

The plane went in the air, and sadly crashed during take-off. Google plane crashes, or search for video on YouTube... you'll see there ain't much left when a plane comes down from the air. Simple physics... F=MA (force equals mass times acceleration), all would have suffered massive trauma. Logic would indicate that we'd expect to see dozens of broken bones on Sikorski's body.

I will say, I respect your passion for the subject. If you are a conspiracy believer, well I'd say you are off but love to engage the discussion. Sadly, bad things happen in wartime; I believe this was an accident. WW2 is chock full of little coincidences, oddities, mishaps, accidents, mistakes that all resonate like a conspiracy -> if you are inclined to believe in conspiracies.

Just my two złoty.

H

History / Good Polish History resource (book), any suggestions? [11]

I will second Davies' God's Playground as it is a very good source, robust and not minor / one-line sentences about Polish history (e.g., Pogonowski's Poland). Zamoyski's The Polish Way is slightly better than Pogonowski's works. I also have found there are many amateur historians, with an interest in Polish History who compose light pieces of topical interest; capturing or regurgitating other's scholarly work.

If you are interested in a specific area of Polish History, there are many great books written at a scholarly level, geared towards academia. Search academic-driven press sources like Yale, CEU Press, Columbia, etc.

I have built my collection of texts up from ebay, and I've been very successful in building a broad-ranged library.

H

History / Władysław Sikorski remains to be exhumed for cause of death [43]

I think too many people put emphasis on 'conspiracy', especially when grasping for something controversial like Katyń. Surely his bones are broken and tissue decayed; let him rest in peace. The real effort would have been a forensic review of the plane that crashed and killed all aboard at the time of the accident.

Conspiracy theorists just love controversy (i.e., no Holocaust, UFOs, Jews/US Government did 9/11, etc.). I believe the general died because of a mechanical malfunction in the plane. Exhuming his remains (what remains of those remains will be very minimal) will show trauma and broken bones pointing to a violent death (e.g., plane crash). However, nothing is going to point to a conspiracy committed by the Soviets... unless they left a note when he was interned.