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Władysław Sikorski remains to be exhumed for cause of death


Filios1 8 | 1,336  
11 Nov 2008 /  #1
We may finally know the truth about how our General died, and how he was probably betrayed by our British and American 'allies.'

Exhumation gene . Wladyslaw Sikorski will be November 25 - said the president of IPN Janusz Kurtyka after a meeting with Metropolitan of Krakow , Cardinal . Stanislaw Dziwisz .

Examination of the body of General Wladyslaw Sikorski make specialists from the Institute of Forensic Research in collaboration with the Department of Forensic Medicine and Department of Radiology, Medical College of Jagiellonian University in Krakow.

President Kurtyka hopes that these studies will no doubt explain the circumstances of the death of Chief of the Polish Armed Forces.

Wroclaw 44 | 5,386  
11 Nov 2008 /  #2
and how he was probably betrayed by our British and American 'allies.'

Sometimes accidents really do happen.
loco polaco 3 | 353  
11 Nov 2008 /  #3
interesting.. we shall see but this many years after the incident and the plane missing i doubt they'll come to any drastic conclusions.
szkotja2007 27 | 1,499  
11 Nov 2008 /  #4
“The aim is to end the speculation of the past 65 years,” he said.
I dont see how, it will just fuel more conspiracy stories.
Leave the dead alone.
Crow 145 | 8,774  
11 Nov 2008 /  #5
by our British and American 'allies.'

they were also Yugoslav and Serbian `allies`. Look what happened to us. They have that habit to screw their allay partners

Let me ask something.... What is Plish expiriance with Russians throughout history? Were Russians loyal allay partners to Poles?
Ozi Dan 26 | 569  
12 Nov 2008 /  #6
I dont see how, it will just fuel more conspiracy stories.
Leave the dead alone.

Even if no decisive conclusions are reached, it'll be cathartic.

If justice cant be done, at least there needs to be an appearance of it being done.
OP Filios1 8 | 1,336  
12 Nov 2008 /  #7
What is Plish expiriance with Russians throughout history? Were Russians loyal allay partners to Poles?

The Russians were never loyal allies to Poles. The only time I can think of Russians actually helping Poland with no strings attached, was at the Battle of Grunwald, where a few Muscovite knights volounteered to help Poland-Lithuanian commonwealth to fight off Teutonic Knights.

Otherwise, their history has been marked by mistrust and blood. Both Poles and Russians had expansionist policies in the centuries before Polands partitioning, and it was only normal for the two to clash. Even their slavic kinship has been thrown aside in favour of conquering territory.

The liberation of Poles by Russians in 1945 is not seen as a godsend, by any stretch of the imagination. Slavery in exchange for slavery.
loco polaco 3 | 353  
12 Nov 2008 /  #8
Were Russians loyal allay partners to Poles?

nope, never
Lotnik767 3 | 145  
12 Nov 2008 /  #9
We know how he died! It obvious that Russian Communists killed him!! This will just prove it by exhuming him!!
Peter 3 | 247  
13 Nov 2008 /  #10
A family friend who served on the ORP Dzik during WW2 always believed that the British were behind Sikorski's death. According to him, Sikorski was unhappy with the treatment of and roles assigned to the Polish armed forces by the British and wanted to remove the Polish forces away from British command and place them under American command. This would have had the effect of removing several elite units thus further relegating Churchill to a bit player.

Anyways, that was his opinion.
OP Filios1 8 | 1,336  
13 Nov 2008 /  #11
wanted to remove the Polish forces away from British command and place them under American command.

More importantly, the existence of such an elite force of Poles overseas, who had ambitions of landing in Poland later doing the Polish liberation under Sikorski's command, would have put a serious strain in the Anglo-Russian relationship. Stalin despised such a free Polish force, and wanted to crush any Polish organization to complete his plans for Poland. By this time, the Brits didn't want anything to do with Stalin and tried their best not to provoke him, even if it meant selling Poland's soul. Can't say I can blame them, because by this time they wanted peace for themselves, at all costs.
Crow 145 | 8,774  
13 Nov 2008 /  #12
The only time I can think of Russians actually helping Poland with no strings attached, was at the Battle of Grunwald, where a few Muscovite knights volounteered to help Poland-Lithuanian commonwealth to fight off Teutonic Knights.

i know for Russian role in Grunwald. It was quite positive

But, you must admit that Russian reaction in WWI on the behalf of Serbians was also great Russian contribution to Polish independance, at least indirectly. When i say indirrectly, it does not minimize fact that Russian helped to Poles in WWI.

How is that so?

Simple, Russians were aware of Serbian-Polish joint actions on Balkan which needed to result in Polish independance and strenghtening of Serbian resistance to Russian domination.

Russians were aware of those processes, they didn`t choose to destroy our attempts (Polish-Serbian) and anyway they reacted on behalf of Serbians. It was great victory of Pan-Slavic circles in Russia but, Russians paid it with millions of lives.

i call my brotherly Poles to think about Russians from different angles. Russians failed sometimes but, there is no hate in them. If eventualy some foreigners ever invade Poland, Russians would be among first to help over pure slavophilia.

Give chance to each others Poles and Russians, dark ages and difficult times are in front of us.
HWPiel 1 | 64  
15 Nov 2008 /  #13
I think too many people put emphasis on 'conspiracy', especially when grasping for something controversial like Katyń. Surely his bones are broken and tissue decayed; let him rest in peace. The real effort would have been a forensic review of the plane that crashed and killed all aboard at the time of the accident.

Conspiracy theorists just love controversy (i.e., no Holocaust, UFOs, Jews/US Government did 9/11, etc.). I believe the general died because of a mechanical malfunction in the plane. Exhuming his remains (what remains of those remains will be very minimal) will show trauma and broken bones pointing to a violent death (e.g., plane crash). However, nothing is going to point to a conspiracy committed by the Soviets... unless they left a note when he was interned.
OP Filios1 8 | 1,336  
16 Nov 2008 /  #14
will show trauma and broken bones pointing to a violent death (e.g., plane crash

But its also possible that it may show other evidence that he was either shot, or perhaps bludgeoned to death before the crash. You know, at least 4 of the passengers were never found, including one girl member of Sikorski's family who was supposedly recognized at a Russian gulag by a Polish commando, but then disappeared.
wildrover 98 | 4,451  
16 Nov 2008 /  #15
Serbian-Polish joint actions

I don,t believe it.....he has managed to get a mention of the serbs into this thread.....Clearly the Nato bombing was way off aim.....
OP Filios1 8 | 1,336  
16 Nov 2008 /  #16
Simple, Russians were aware of Serbian-Polish joint actions on Balkan which needed to result in Polish independance and strenghtening of Serbian resistance to Russian domination.

How is that possible? A large area of Poland was under Russian rule. Why on earth would they want Poland to regain their independence? Russia was acting on their Balkan interests, nothing else. I recognize that they were sympathetic to the Serbian pan-Slavic cause. But even that can be attributed towards the pro-Russian rulers of Serbia at the time. Russia wanted to neutralize the Ottoman threat in the area. As well, they were looking for any pretext to redeem themselves after standing down to Austria-Hungary's threats a few years earlier...

Russians paid it with millions of lives.

This does not make it o.k. The Russians were acting in their own interests. I feel sympathy for the men who were forced to be cannon fodder, but not towards Nicholas or any of that aristocratic scum.

Russians failed sometimes but, there is no hate in them

This is understood.

eventualy some foreigners ever invade Poland, Russians would be among first to help over pure slavophilia.

I am very curious to see if they would, or if it would simply be a repeat of WWII.

Give chance to each others Poles and Russians, dark ages and difficult times are in front of us.

I work, I drink, I eat, I wait...
Crow 145 | 8,774  
16 Nov 2008 /  #17
How is that possible?

do you realy believe that Russians didn`t know what prince Czartoryski doing among Serbians?

just one example of Polish-Serbian coordination...

Prince Czartoryski's intention was to make conditions for the establishment of independent Poland by using the Eastern question.

Close contacts of the Polish émigrés with the Serbian Constitutionalists was the result of their common hostility towards Russia.

A large area of Poland was under Russian rule. Why on earth would they want Poland to regain their independence?

with all due respect on Poland but, warm seas were always most important Russian foreign `investments`

Then, how to rule Poland taking in consideration religious differences. Foreign factor always managed to use those differences in order to divide Slavs even more. Considering those religious antagonisms, Russian failures on Slavic West were turned into real tragedies for Slavic world.... Russia was in unpleasent situation and needed reson to retreat from Poland

It is also important to underline traditional Polish-Serbian ties and tragic situation of both those ethoses. Both- Poles and Serbians desperately desired independance, both- from multiple factors. Serbians were convinced that Poles could help them (relying on tradition) and any Russian attempt to interfere in Polish-Serbian relations could be understand as attack on vital Serbian interests. For Serbians, liberations from Ottomans was priority, for Poles independance was imperative, for Russians warm seas were necesity. So, Russians didn`t risk to weaken their position among Serbs and they tolerated Polish-Serbian actions. Russians were also aware of mutual Polish-Serbian influence based on pure slavophilia and when they sow Polish-Serbian interaction which resulted in increasing Pan-Slavism they for sure sought an opportunity to let Poland get independance and even to profit on that (Polish resistance to Russia was increased but also to non-Slavs). Then Russians concentrated on Slavic South (warm seas) and greately pushed Turks, saving Serbians, saving warm seas for themselves.

When so called west sow development in Slavic world, that time France (Napoleon) lounched attack on Russia in order to support survivor of Ottoman Empire, leaving complete Slavic South on the silver plate to Ottomans, just to secure its economic investments in bussines with Turks/Muslim world. While internal Slavic relations were enough to provide mutual balance and independance of key Slavic players, self declared `Slavic masters` on so called west reacted to support non-European (Turks) invaders on Slavic world.

But even that can be attributed towards the pro-Russian rulers of Serbia at the time.

what pro-Russian rulers of Serbia?

Serbs like Russians for same reasons as they like Poles. My dear, it is Russian and Polish failure to divide over religious antagonism. Serbians were always above that. ALWAYS (don`t trust to anti-Serbian propaganda).

When Russia tried to force Serbia to obey to her, Russia learned that Serbians likes them but that they also has their specific interests. So, Serbian rulers who didn`t respect choice of Serbian people and inteligentsia were forced to abanden Serbian throne.

With the help of Polish representatives, who sent Zwierkowski to Belgrade, the Constitutionalists organized a revolt in Serbia in 1842, and expelled Prince Michael Obrenovic. After that, Alexander Karadjordjevic officially became the new Prince.

Russia wanted to neutralize the Ottoman threat in the area. As well, they were looking for any pretext to redeem themselves after standing down to Austria-Hungary's threats a few years earlier...

exactly!

and for that they needed Serbians and Serbians were sure that they need both-Russians and Poles. Russians needed to respect Serbian choice

This does not make it o.k. The Russians were acting in their own interests.

millions of lives are millions of lives in any case and Poland got its independance. I guaranteed to you that Russians were ready and prepared for such a development.

Yes, Russians acted in their own interests. That exactly i want to show to you! In one moment, situation in Slavic world and our mutual necesities forced us to coordinate and to help to each others (as many times in history), sacrificing something of our own (sometimes/often selfish) interests.

I feel sympathy for the men who were forced to be cannon fodder, but not towards Nicholas or any of that aristocratic scum.

i have respect for all Russians who enetered in WWI on the behalf of Serbian boosted with Pan-Slavic spirit, no matter stuborn Serbian responds to Russia. I am absolutely sure that Nicholas was among those people of Russia who believed that Poland deserve its independance same as Serbia- that`s the bottom line of his life, he paid with his life for his Pan-Slavic attitude when weakened Russia failed under communism because of German schemes.

Source for quotations:
Ilija Garasanin's "Nacertanije"
Institute for Balkan Studies
Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences
Belgrade, Dusan T. Batakovic

rastko.org.yu/istorija/batakovic/batakovic-nacertanije_eng.html
HWPiel 1 | 64  
16 Nov 2008 /  #18
But its also possible that it may show other evidence that he was either shot, or perhaps bludgeoned to death before the crash. You know, at least 4 of the passengers were never found, including one girl member of Sikorski's family who was supposedly recognized at a Russian gulag by a Polish commando, but then disappeared.

Oh sigh. = ( No, there is no conspiracy here; however, I will offer to buy you a nice Polish lunch if anything new and profound comes of this exhumation.

It was wartime, I highly doubt they'd embalm him. Too much room for speculation. What if he was hit with a hammer and sickle? What if the plane landed on its side killing only Sikorski? What if? What if?! It is all too conspiracy driven. A hunch is not a away to substantiate truth, but it makes for sexy reporting as well as fodder for conspiracy theorists. What if the remains are not there? Or broken down to carbon? Is it really Sikorski's remains in the box? <- how can you be sure 60 years later?

The plane went in the air, and sadly crashed during take-off. Google plane crashes, or search for video on YouTube... you'll see there ain't much left when a plane comes down from the air. Simple physics... F=MA (force equals mass times acceleration), all would have suffered massive trauma. Logic would indicate that we'd expect to see dozens of broken bones on Sikorski's body.

I will say, I respect your passion for the subject. If you are a conspiracy believer, well I'd say you are off but love to engage the discussion. Sadly, bad things happen in wartime; I believe this was an accident. WW2 is chock full of little coincidences, oddities, mishaps, accidents, mistakes that all resonate like a conspiracy -> if you are inclined to believe in conspiracies.

Just my two złoty.

H
Prince 15 | 590  
26 Nov 2008 /  #19
Everybody knows that British are what they are. They needed Poles they were nice they didn't need Sikorski they have killed him. It is their culture do the same with them :) Be British !!! When you need British smile when you don't need them anny more stab them in their back it is their culture, use their culture key.
Harry  
27 Nov 2008 /  #20
By this time, the Brits didn't want anything to do with Stalin and tried their best not to provoke him, even if it meant selling Poland's soul.

You should consider investing in a history book or two. It was the Americans who sold out Poland to avoid upsetting the Soviets. Just read the below:

warsawuprising.com/doc/Roosevelt_Churchill_Stalin.htm

Were Russians loyal allay partners to Poles?

You are either immensely stupid or utterly insane. Or possibly both.
HWPiel 1 | 64  
11 Dec 2008 /  #21
I did a basic internet search for an update on the exhumation of Sikorski, and came up empty. Anyone find anything out from a new junket I may have missed?

Henry
plk123 8 | 4,150  
11 Dec 2008 /  #22
Were Russians loyal allay partners to Poles?

never ever.

i call my brotherly Poles to think about Russians from different angles. Russians failed sometimes but, there is no hate in them. If eventualy some foreigners ever invade Poland, Russians would be among first to help over pure slavophilia.

god, you're effing full of it. the gd commies didn't help save poland-serbia, they inhaled us all. they didn't liberate PL, the enslaved it. F them all to hell.

Give chance to each others Poles and Russians, dark ages and difficult times are in front of us.

quite the opposite imho, at least for PL anyway as i care not for the bastards from the east.

However, nothing is going to point to a conspiracy committed by the Soviets... unless they left a note when he was interned.

yeah, i bet a bit polonium in his bones would surely raise an eyebrow or two, no?

Poles independance was imperative, for Russians warm seas were necesity.

that makes 0 sense crow.

Serbs like Russians for same reasons as they like Poles. My dear, it is Russian and Polish failure to divide over religious antagonism. Serbians were always above that. ALWAYS

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ha

in any case and Poland got its independance.

definitely not because of russia.. jeez man.

Yes, Russians acted in their own interests. That exactly i want to show to you! In one moment, situation in Slavic world and our mutual necesities forced us to coordinate and to help to each others (as many times in history), sacrificing something of our own (sometimes/often selfish) interests.

you're dreaming agian crow. slavs have never been united, NEVER. nor was there any real chance of that ever happening.

Nicholas was among those people of Russia who believed that Poland deserve its independance

sure, sure.. whatever.. that's just another load of crap man.

Or broken down to carbon? Is it really Sikorski's remains in the box? <- how can you be sure 60 years later?

ever hear of DNA???

you'll see there ain't much left when a plane comes down from the air.

exactly, yet the plane laid in pretty much one piece in the gibraltar waters.. hmmm you just proved against your points.

Everybody knows that British are what they are. They needed Poles they were nice they didn't need Sikorski they have killed him. It is their culture do the same with them :) Be British !!! When you need British smile when you don't need them anny more stab them in their back it is their culture, use their culture key.

unfortunately very true.

You are either immensely stupid or utterly insane. Or possibly both.

dreamy and completely out of touch with reality. lol

2. Aug. 15, 1944 Andrey Y. Vyshinsky, First Assistant to the People’s Commissar for
Foreign Affairs of the Soviet Union, message to Ambassador Harrison in Moscow

The Soviet Government cannot of course object to English or American aircraft dropping arms in the region of Warsaw, since this is an American and British affair. But they decidedly object to American or British aircraft, after dropping arms in the region of Warsaw, landing on Soviet territory, since the Soviet Government do not wish to associate themselves either directly or indirectly with the adventure in Warsaw.

crow, independence my ass.
slick77 - | 127  
11 Dec 2008 /  #23
We may finally know the truth about how our General died

Search for the truth is always noble; however, I'm afraid this investigation is not going to change ANYTHING...yet another pointless exercise.

Let's assume for a moment that Polish investigators proved the following: Brits assassinated Sikorski. Question: Is our government going to break all relations with UK because of some events that took place 65 years ago? I don't think so...

So my question is: what problems is it going to solve for today's Poland?! How is it going to help Poland?! Is this going to bring more jobs to our economy? Is it going to help build highways and freeways?!!! These are FAR more important issues than results of this investigation...
polishgirltx  
11 Dec 2008 /  #24
Anyone find anything out from a new junket I may have missed?

it's going to be know 100% at the end of Jan '09...

I'm afraid this investigation is not going to change ANYTHING...yet another pointless exercise.

to do just to close the case...
HWPiel 1 | 64  
11 Dec 2008 /  #25
plk123,

Yeesh - I disagree.

Yes, of course I've heard of DNA, but do you know what it stands for? How many amino acids there are? Which amino acids can be paired with each other? How many combinations are there? What is the difference between multi-strand and single-strand? Etc.

I have the pleasure of working in biotechnology; yet I love to read a good story. Especially spy stories and ones that involve conspiracies. As an undergraduate at Harvard I took a class called "Conspiracy" lectured by Prof. William H. Anderson, MD of Harvard Medical School and Harvard College. I actually raised this point with him, and in my youth I was eager to challenge him; his response was that sometimes accidents happen at opportune moments in history and a gain is achieved by the bad guy. It is not always a dubious means to an end that gains are made, but an opportunity.

This whole thread is full of quotes that charge the issue with generalizations and biases, because they are passionate about the subject -> Crow to Prince.

Let's step back here for one minute, and say that Stalin really wanted Sikorski dead, because it would make for easier manipulation in the Tehran, Potsdam, and Yalta conferences for the USSR. Stalin, the man who purged > 20 million of his own people in the interest of the Soviet Union, don't you think he'd have the NKVD / KGB do him in (less elaborately than a plane mishap) kind of like they did in Trotsky in Mexico?! Hmm? Dont'cha think it would be more practical?

I do believe in responsible history: accurate, honest, not agenda drive, and ethical. I also believe that conspiracy makes for great reading, though not intellectually challenging. Katyń was a legitimate conspiracy by academic definition, but Sikorski's death is not... neither are UFOs, Alien Autopsies, and the US Government spreading AIDS.

None of the above, or my prior statements proves anything supporting the notion that the Soviets caused the death of Sikorski; I mocked the poster I was responding too. I will assert that if the Soviets wanted him dead, they would have done it earlier, easier and probably when he was in Moscow.

Clicheś, generalizations, wants-wishes-and-will cannot reverse history nor should they be used in revisionist manner such as an Ockam's Razor for the present day; that period of history was unfortunate.

A conspiracy theorist will yell at you all day long, "I look out my window and I see a flat world; therefore, the world is flat." Socrates is rolling over in his grave and laughing.

Henry.
plk123 8 | 4,150  
11 Dec 2008 /  #26
Search for the truth is always noble; however, I'm afraid this investigation is not going to change ANYTHING...yet another pointless exercise.

you seem to contradict yourself there. is it noble or is it pointless then.. make up your mind.

it's definitely NOT pointless.

Let's assume for a moment that Polish investigators proved the following: Brits assassinated Sikorski. Question: Is our government ...

.....So my question is: what problems is it going to solve for today's Poland?! How is it going to help Poland?! Is this going to bring more jobs to our economy? Is it going to help build highways and freeways?!!!

ever hear of bargaining chips? english have lot's of guilt and there are no better guilt extractors then a bunch of polaks.

same goes for the americans.
polishgirltx  
11 Dec 2008 /  #27
How many amino acids there are? Which amino acids can be paired with each other? How many combinations are there? What is the difference between multi-strand and single-strand? Etc.

hmmm... this case is not only about his DNA...

I do believe in responsible history: accurate, honest, not agenda drive, and ethical.

it gets very tricky here...
plk123 8 | 4,150  
11 Dec 2008 /  #28
Yes, of course I've heard of DNA, but do you know what it stands for? How many amino acids there are? Which amino acids can be paired with each other? How many combinations are there? What is the difference between multi-strand and single-strand? Etc.

exactly.. he has to be dug up to answer those questions. it's a tedious process.

his response was that sometimes accidents happen at opportune moments in history and a gain is achieved by the bad guy. It is not always a dubious means to an end that gains are made, but an opportunity.

no one is disputing that, for sure. wise man he is/was. BUT not everything is an accident. you also raised questions above, that need answers to even start. and they are well in the process by now. we'll know more soon enough. it may be nothing, or it may be big. it may bring some closure though, as pgtx said. we'll just have to wait it out.




but Sikorski's death is not...

ok, you say you went to Harvard? hmm.. how can you be so conclusive without those first steps you raised questions about.. hmmm
HWPiel 1 | 64  
11 Dec 2008 /  #29
... ah, you missed the point.

I am not a conspiracy theorist, nor do I believe Sikorski's death is a conspiracy.

Even by conspiracy/urban legend/myth standards Sikorski's death does not even rank up there. Only on a Polish, Polish-UK, Polish-US nationalistic pride level is it mentioned, in searching the web I found only one semi-credible source making an inference that Sikorski was murdered - Wikipedia.

One honest question here... if Sikorski was murdered, how come there is not a big uproar now about it at the true academic level (since we are global apologist society)? Why aren't there Ph.D. candidates and notable historians like Norman Davies or Natalie Lebedeva crying foul on this matter?

Couldn't it be as simple as "I love my country and I feel as though I was wronged? It is not always a dubious means to an end that gains are made, but an opportunity for another.

Hey, I am just saying.

H
polishgirltx  
11 Dec 2008 /  #30
One honest question here... if Sikorski was murdered, how come there is not a big uproar now about it at the true academic level (since we are global apologist society)? Why aren't there Ph.D. candidates and notable historians like Norman Davies or Natalie Lebedeva crying foul on this matter?

i think you are missing the point here... what's that all about...

Couldn't it be as simple as "I love my country and I feel as though I was wronged? It is not always a dubious means to an end that gains are made, but an opportunity for another.

nothing is just black and white... the colors in between create the world and all about that...

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