Return PolishForums LIVE
  PolishForums Archive :
Archives - 2005-2009 / History  % width 139

Russia tells teachers to lie to students about "Katyn"


joepilsudski 26 | 1,389  
26 Aug 2008 /  #31
AN EXCELLENT THREAD ON THE KATYN MASSACRE/RUSSIAN DENIAL FROM LIBERTY FORUM
CoolMoon 1 | 60  
26 Aug 2008 /  #32
why not just rise above it, the world knows what went on, let the Russians play their silly little school boy games and rise above them

Don't you realise how dangerous it is for the world if a country is allowed to teach history as it sees fit?
dtaylor 9 | 823  
26 Aug 2008 /  #33
It should never be forgotten, we are talking about someones son, fathers, husbands, uncles and grandfathers.

That could be said about any part of a countries history. Human kind does not have the ability to change its ways. Unfortunately its called sick human behaviour.
tornado2007 11 | 2,274  
26 Aug 2008 /  #34
It should never be forgotten, we are talking about someones son, fathers, husbands, uncles and grandfathers.

people are murdered every day, killed on the streets un lawfully, many people are killed and flung into mass graves in Africa, Asia etc etc. Katyn is one of a million cases i bet. All that sentimental stuff about mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, etc etc well to be honest people need to learn how to move on. Yes people died and yes it was un-lawful killing however it does not change the fact that they are 'dead'!!!!.

Why can't people move on with their lives, what do you think your grandfather would think of you know??? I tell you if i was chasing the German Pilot who shot down my Great Grandad or the flack gun that could of hit his Bomber that was lost, he would be laughing at me saying 'get on with your life' i gave mine, now don't waste yours!!!'
jkn005 1 | 127  
26 Aug 2008 /  #35
It pretty much put an end to the war and the blurred views of the Japs that they could rule the world

Ironically I had family members die in those bombings, yet was born in the country that did it. I still always find that reasoning a bit off in my opinion. Kill a bunch of people that were no threat to anyone. The difference though is Japanese for the most part don't hold a grudge. Neither do I. It was a messed up world back then. Pretty much all sides were guilty of these kinds of atrocities.
tornado2007 11 | 2,274  
26 Aug 2008 /  #36
I still always find that reasoning a bit off

of course its a bit off, nobody could deny that.

Kill a bunch of people that were no threat to anyone.

i'm sure you know, that is war, everything is different in war.

The difference though is Japanese for the most part don't hold a grudge. Neither do I. It was a messed up world back then. Pretty much all sides were guilty of these kinds of atrocities.

why can't all nations have this attitude, remember yet move on and live your own life. Japan has moved on since the bombings and has turned its tragic history into a properous nation with plenty of potential and world stature.

Poland are you listening and seeing this!!

P.S.

I don't know if you find the term 'Jap's' offensive or not, if you do i'm sorry its just what the short version of 'japanese' is in the UK. Sometimes even they are referred to as 'Nips' i.e. the 'Nipon Army' or 'SUper Nipon' football team. I was always told when i was younger the term 'nip' was offensive however the Japs seem to use it themselves???
Ogorki - | 114  
26 Aug 2008 /  #37
But I repeat you again... death of RA's soldiers is NOT a lie.

Sasha - here is the bottom line.

In 1920 RA soldiers invaded a soveriegn country - Poland. They wanted to take what was not theirs. They wanted to enslave - to take Europe after WW1. Throughout history Russia has tried to control Poland - becuause it was in the way - an inconvenience. Occasionally Poland would fight back - with affect. Russia would respond - with revenge. Poland was fighting for basic survival - against a huge 'Bully' neighbour.

In 1920 - Russia invaded Poland and tried to take it - this is a crime. Poland had enough. Soldiers were angry.

If it is true that RA soldiers died - you have to ask yourself the questions. Why were they on Polish soil. Soveriegn - FREE soil. FREE SOIL.

Ask yourself - WHY were RA soldiers on soveriegn soil?

Then you can continue....
OP celinski 31 | 1,258  
26 Aug 2008 /  #38
Why can't people move on with their lives, what do you think your grandfather would think of you know??? I tell you if i was chasing the German Pilot who shot down my Great Grandad or the flack gun that could of hit his Bomber that was lost, he would be laughing at me saying 'get on with your life' i gave mine, now don't waste yours!!!'

My Grandfather would be proud, thank you. Do you recall that "occupied Poland" were not alloud to speak of this crime? We are not talking about one person killed on the street, we are speaking of Poland's military, shot in the head. Unarmed men that were unarmed. 22,000 for what?
CoolMoon 1 | 60  
26 Aug 2008 /  #39
tornado2007

There are some people who don't move on, some survivors who don't put it behind them (in many situations). You should be aware that not everyone has your idea of "forget about it, they died years ago, who cares?". People still search for the truth and will not allow for the facts to be so badly twisted, like Russia tries. It's easy to say "move on" but it's very important that there are people in the world who battle to save memories and stop them from being twisted.
dtaylor 9 | 823  
26 Aug 2008 /  #40
Unarmed men that were unarmed. 22,000 for what?

For nothing celinski. sad fact is that this sort of thing has always happened in human history. Sorry for your family's lost, but it seems like the only thing your interested in doing is making everybody else cry about your history. If you really want to help the world or whatever, drop you hate against old enemies, and do something constructive for the millions of people who are dying today because of genocide ect.
OP celinski 31 | 1,258  
26 Aug 2008 /  #41
It's easy to say "move on" but it's very important that there are people in the world who battle to save memories and stop them from being twisted.

Not to mention, how dare Russia falsely make justification for the killing? It's bad enough this crime took place, now they admit and blame the victim's, bs.
tornado2007 11 | 2,274  
26 Aug 2008 /  #42
My Grandfather would be proud, thank you. Do you recall that "occupied Poland" were not alloud to speak of this crime? We are not talking about one person killed on the street, we are speaking of Poland's military, shot in the head. Unarmed men that were unarmed. 22,000 for what?

War is War, many things happen in war time that would not even be thinkable in everyday life. You think this is the only ever 'war crime' there are thousands of cases, so many you wouldn't believe. What i was trying to point out by talking about your grandfather and my great grandfather is the similarity is, at the end of the day, they are dead. They are not coming back, that is that, at least you know how your family member, member's at Katyn died, we have no idea about how he died. Just because one family member was killed at Katyn does not make them anymore or any less special than those who died in the skies over Holland and France or on the ground at Omaha Beach.

There are some people who don't move on, some survivors who don't put it behind them (in many situations). You should be aware that not everyone has your idea of "forget about it, they died years ago, who cares?". People still search for the truth and will not allow for the facts to be so badly twisted, like Russia tries. It's easy to say "move on" but it's very important that there are people in the world who battle to save memories and stop them from being twisted.

so much effort, for what?? nothing changes, nobody comes back, nobody feels less hurt or less guilty. Its like people are digging for the sake of digging, do you not see that?? Fair play, find out what happened to your loved ones but after that, what else do you need to know. Whether they died, shot by a Russian at Katyn while un armed or in a German concentration camp because they could no longer work. Both unlawful shootings and both shootings of unarmed men/women, what is the difference???
Ogorki - | 114  
26 Aug 2008 /  #43
it seems like the only thing your interested in doing is making everybody else cry about your history

War is War, many things happen

Don't mean to be offensive - but it's obvious that you -
your relatives - the people around you - your country
has not been fu*ked in the a*s for a loooong time.
CoolMoon 1 | 60  
26 Aug 2008 /  #44
so much effort, for what?? nothing changes, nobody comes back, nobody feels less hurt or less guilty. Its like people are digging for the sake of digging, do you not see that?? Fair play, find out what happened to your loved ones but after that, what else do you need to know. Whether they died, shot by a Russian at Katyn while un armed or in a German concentration camp because they could no longer work. Both unlawful shootings and both shootings of unarmed men/women, what is the difference???

Effort in not allowing the truth to be twisted. People are happy to let things lie until Russia does a thing like this! People search for truth in the memory of their loved ones and for the memory of history and quite frankly tornado, you can be very offending when you tell people they shouldn't live in the past, it's happened and all your other remarks to posts like this. If you don't want to discuss these subjects sensibly instead of telling people they are wrong, they are living in the past then you should stay out of these conversations! It's a bloody history thread posted in a section about Polish history! The gist is that people talk about the past. Get over it!
dtaylor 9 | 823  
26 Aug 2008 /  #45
Don't mean to be offensive - but it's obvious that you -
your relatives - the people around you - your country
has not been fu*ked in the a*s for a loooong time.

I've lost family members in N.Ireland. But as much as i hate the others who commited it, i cant hold a grudge forever. Part of Polands problem for not progressing is the fact that they cant move on. Big news here, but hardly anyone in the world cares about Polands history, the world has moved on from 50years ago.
ski 7 | 140  
26 Aug 2008 /  #46
"Poland Politics & History"

you don't care you don't read. Clinski has lost her family and she is looking for truth
tornado2007 11 | 2,274  
26 Aug 2008 /  #47
Don't mean to be offensive - but it's obvious that you -
your relatives - the people around you - your country
has not been fu*ked in the a*s for a loooong time.

lol really, or maybe its because you can't get real and 'move on', **** happens.

Effort in not allowing the truth to be twisted. People are happy to let things lie until Russia does a thing like this! People search for truth in the memory of their loved ones and for the memory of history and quite frankly tornado, you can be very offending when you tell people they shouldn't live in the past, it's happened and all your other remarks to posts like this. If you don't want to discuss these subjects sensibly instead of telling people they are wrong, they are living in the past then you should stay out of these conversations! It's a bloody history thread posted in a section about Polish history! The gist is that people talk about the past. Get over it!

now your telling me i'm wrong becuase i have a different approach to you and some other people on the website!!!! Don't go on and on about offensive, maybe your just taking it a little to seriously!!!!. I'm well aware that people want to find out what happened to their loved ones, i'm sure there are many Bosnians and many other nationalities that want to find out what happened to their loved ones. I've seen documentaries on the Bosnia/Serbia tragedy, a lot of Bosnians simply said they just wanted to know what happened to their loved ones, where they died, etc etc and not all the crap surrounding it. Maybe its a leaf from a book others could do well taking from
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,324  
26 Aug 2008 /  #48
Clinski has lost her family and she is looking for truth

"Clinski"?

Can I borrow this? :)

She isn't looking for the truth as she already knows all about it!
dtaylor 9 | 823  
26 Aug 2008 /  #49
you don't care you don't read. Clinski has lost her family and she is looking for truth

She looking for the truth, and spreading as much stuff about as possible. Sorry, but she is doing more harm than good. It's people like her and the politicians who will send us back into WW3.
Ogorki - | 114  
26 Aug 2008 /  #50
Big news here, but hardly anyone in the world cares about Polands history, the world has moved on from 50years ago.

What you have to remember here is that Poles have moved on - a large % don't even know what happened in their past becuause thay have been brainwashwed by the communists.

Of course the world does not care about Polands history - why should it.

Here it comes...

Poles only bring up the past when people like you come onto Polish forums and threaten the Honour and Dignity of Polands EXTREMELY sensitive and tragic history - to open ones mouth without knowing what the deal is.

Poles only open their mouths when provoked.
I would not dream of commenting on the complicated problems in N Ireland.
tornado2007 11 | 2,274  
26 Aug 2008 /  #51
Poles only open their mouths when provoked.

that is wrong and you know it :). So its all the visitors who come to PF that start the History threads is it??? about who killed in on 1930 odd or 1830 odd, i don't think so.

I would not dream of commenting on the complicated problems in N Ireland.

Even if you did i don't think you would find many people crying about it the same way as some of the Poles on here do about their history :)
ski 7 | 140  
26 Aug 2008 /  #52
Russia tells teachers to lie to students about "Katyn"

In my opinion it shows return to old Russian tradition of manipulating data and it is next sign of dangerous changes in their country.
dtaylor 9 | 823  
26 Aug 2008 /  #53
Poles only bring up the past when people like you come onto Polish forums and threaten the Honour and Dignity of Polands EXTREMELY sensitive and tragic history - to open ones mouth without knowing what the deal is.

Sorry, but when did i do that. was i not stating my own opinions....or should no one but Poles have an opinion about their own history....Norman Davies should shut up on your opinion then?

I've lived here for long enough, and therefore hold the right to have my opinion on Polish attitudes with every aspect of life.

I would not dream of commenting on the complicated problems in N Ireland.

Why not? Are you banned from commenting?
Ogorki - | 114  
26 Aug 2008 /  #54
So its all the visitors who come to PF that start the History threads is it??? about who killed in on 1930 odd or 1830 odd, i don't think so.

...and so...Polish Forum -

FORUM (meeting,assembly for open discussion or debate)

THAT'S WHAT A FORUM IS FOR. They discuss.
Do you know the difference between discuss and moan?
The visitors come one (not being Polish they are a little green in the
department of Polish history) and tend to pi*s off Poles (unintentionally)
The Poles defend their patch - as thay have been doing for the past 1000 years.
tornado2007 11 | 2,274  
26 Aug 2008 /  #55
past 1000 years.

yeah talk about a never ending story :):):), how is going to invade you next, lol.
Ogorki - | 114  
26 Aug 2008 /  #56
Sorry, but when did i do that. was i not stating my own opinions

It should be left in the past, and forgotten maybe.

This is where you dropped your clanger.

Norman Davies should shut up on your opinion then?

That's what he does professionally. He knows the deal...

Why not? Are you banned from commenting?

....I don't have much knowledge of what happened in N Ireland and
therefore cannot comment.
dtaylor 9 | 823  
26 Aug 2008 /  #57
This is where you dropped your clanger.

Typo, i was stating my opinion.

I just think as long as people keep moaning about something they cant fix, then they will never move on.

Deaths during WW2, civilian...

1st China 16,200,000
2nd Russia 11,400,000
3rd Dutch East Indies 4,000,000

I never hear them bleeting on and on about how much they deserve something from the world. Atleast they have moved on. History is a good thing to debate, but not to the point you sound like some poor loser.
OP celinski 31 | 1,258  
26 Aug 2008 /  #58
people keep moaning about something they cant fix, then they will never move on.

Do you really think the timing of the new text in Russia's education system are new, please. Perfect timing for Putin to pour salt on the wound.

To teach your children that "Katyn" was Poland's fault and they brought it on themselves is just plain sick. All the men that trusted Soviets enough to put turn their weapons in only to be killed in cold blood is murder.

Crimes even during war time should not be tolerated, or in this case turned on the victim and twisted to teach to innocent children.

Sasha and Constatine you know the truth and if you feel your children should go to school and learn lies from your goverment don't say you are free. Demand your goverment have standards and they will, lie and you look like fools.
Babinich 1 | 455  
26 Aug 2008 /  #59
Just because one family member was killed at Katyn does not make them anymore or any less special than those who died in the skies over Holland and France or on the ground at Omaha Beach.

You don't get it. It's not that they died, it is how they died.
Sasha 2 | 1,083  
27 Aug 2008 /  #60
Ogorki

Hi brat!

If it is true that RA soldiers died - you have to ask yourself the questions. Why were they on Polish soil. Soveriegn - FREE soil. FREE SOIL.

So may I perceive that as your consent on that RA's soldiers died? If "yes" then there's nothing to argue further about since it was the only my issue on the initial text of this thread.

In 1920 RA soldiers invaded a soveriegn country - Poland. They wanted to take what was not theirs. They wanted to enslave - to take Europe after WW1. Throughout history Russia has tried to control Poland - becuause it was in the way - an inconvenience. Occasionally Poland would fight back - with affect. Russia would respond - with revenge. Poland was fighting for basic survival - against a huge 'Bully' neighbour.

Nevertheless I noticed you painted the conflict as if it was all about bad russian bear and tiny innocent rec pospolita which is not true.

First and foremost it's good to know that Poland has never been so harmless towards its neighbours. At some sizable periods of its existence Poland competes with Russia for the title of empire in the East Europe and sometimes... Poland was about to once and for all win the game.

Here're GV's targets for the war:

Poland. Main goal is to restore Poland in its historical boundaries of Rech Pospolita in 1772 with establishing of control over Belorussia, Ukraine and Lithuania and dominating in Eastern Europe.

Uzef Pilsudsky: Secluded in the boundaries of the end 16th century, cut off of Black and Baltic Seas, devoid of natural resources of South and South-East Russia could easily turn to the state of second-class country that couldn't seriously threat to a NEW independent Poland. In its turn Poland as the biggest and most powerfull of NEW countries might easily get the sphere of influence spreading from Finland to Caucasian Mountains.

Excuse moi. Does it sound as a statement of sovereign and innocent country that doesn't bully anybody and doesn't claim to be an empire? :)

Russia. As a minimum: establishing control over Ukraine and Belorussia and their sovetization. As a maximum: sovetization of Poland and further of Germany then the World Revolution.

Lenin: crashing polish army we're destroying that Versaillais peace that holds system of nowadays international affairs. If Poland was Soviet, Versaillais peace would be destructed and all international system would crashed as well.
Trozky: Lenin had a plan to enter Warsaw and help people to overthrow their political system in the name of Socialistic Ideals.

Doesn't sound friendly as well.
My purpose was to show you that nothing was white in the World. Historic "facts" is a kind of information you gotta be especially careful with since every time when you express your opinion on how things look like you take a great responsibility that may impact all the Humankind in the future. People have always been a trigger under the finger of politicians.

Archives - 2005-2009 / History / Russia tells teachers to lie to students about "Katyn"Archived