Western Europe and America vs Russia WWII - chances of Poland being saved

31 May 2009 / #211

and opened up with a machine gun

And who do you think manned these gun?
The fresh troops Peiper got for this operation were very young boys as Germany scraped the barrel of manpower at this time already!
The SS especially had set down the entry age to 16 to get the "best" from the young before the Wehrmacht...there you have your "mad" SS!

And no...I wouldn't call that brave...but then...I wouldn't call the American shooting german POWS as brave either!

forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=148435

The 21 men shot were actuallly elderly police reservists and firemen housed in the cellar of a Spitze inn.

I don't remember any trial....do you?
An isolated case? For sure not...it was war and **** happened and nobody was interested in allied crimes!

But sometimes they were:

...
Many massacres of prisoners of war were committed by the American 45th (Thunderbird) Division during the invasion of Sicily in 1943. At Comise airfield, a truck load of German prisoners were machine-gunned as they climbed down on to the tarmac, prior to be air-lifted out. Later the same day, 60 Italian prisoners were cut down the same way. On July 14, thirty six prisoners were gunned down near Gela by their guard, US Sergeant Barry West. At Buttera airfield, US Captain Jerry Compton, lined up his 43 prisoners against a wall and machine-gunned them to death. West and Compton were both arrested and convicted of murder. They were sent to the front where both were later killed in action....

nunczka 8 | 457

31 May 2009 / #212

And who do you think manned these gun?

And who do you think ordered them to fire?

And no...I wouldn't call that brave...but then...I wouldn't call the American shooting german POWS as brave either!

I am not denying that there were instances of that.. But I want you to show me proof that it happened. The only case that I know of is when Sepp Deitrich ordered American speaking paratroopers to from behind American lines to cause havoc. They were caught an executed by a firing squad as spies, according to the Geneva rules

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11831

31 May 2009 / #213

But I want you to show me proof that it happened.

Erm....as in Photos???

And who do you think ordered them to fire?

Not Peiper, that's the problem!
He wasn't at the crossing anymore.
During the trial he offered to take over the responsibility for all his soldiers...as a proper officer should do!

The only case that I know of is when Sepp Deitrich ordered American speaking paratroopers to from behind American lines to cause havoc. They were caught an executed by a firing squad as spies, according to the Geneva rules

You mean operation Greif? That was Skorzeny....
And I wouldn't call that war crimes as the allies also had their hidden agents behind german lines and also the germans knew that they couldn't hope for mercy should they get caught...nobody forced them to!

nunczka 8 | 457

31 May 2009 / #214

Erm....as in Photos???

ERM... I am not particular. If you have photos that you can back up then show them

I will settle for wikiperdia confirmation.. NO BLOGS.

Any other Historical archive will do.

Back up your statements.. TALK is CHEAP

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11831

31 May 2009 / #215

NO BLOGS.

Germans were forbidden to have photo apparate or similiar...no papers, no radio...why do you think that was so?

Axis history is no "blog"....authors research here!
*pouts*

But you will agree with me that the same authorities who had all the power (and the ONLY power at that) to research allied war crimes were not especially interested in doing it in post-war Germany, don't you!

Wiki has this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II

...at Chegnogne that on New Year's Day 1945 some 60 German POWs were shot in cold blood by their American guards.
The guilty went unpunished. It was felt that the basis for their action was orders that no prisoners were to be taken"

Interesting, isn't it....they followed orders...

nunczka 8 | 457

31 May 2009 / #216

Wiki has this:

Good show. Like I said I never heard of one. But I accept your proof.

I will also admit that there was cruelty in an American POW camp in Remagan. But until I saw proof, I never believed it

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11831

31 May 2009 / #217

It was war Nunczka...

freebird 3 | 532

31 May 2009 / #218

It was war

exactly, many cruel things are happening during the war

nunczka 8 | 457

31 May 2009 / #219

It was war Nunczka...

Yes, war is hell. There are good and bad in every War. Men are not created equal. We all react different. What makes one man a hero and the other a coward. Why does one crack under combat while another fights on. What does one do when sitting in a fox hole on a cold snowy night and hear a noise. Could it be a limb snapping under the weight of snow, or a deer.. Or could it be an enemy patrol.. What would you do? Shoot at something you cant see and give your position away or do you hunker down in your hole until the sounds stop?

scrappleton - | 829

31 May 2009 / #220

You now have quite the fascination with war, don't you babyboomer? I've worn camouflage, slept in these holes.. there's nothing glamourous about it.

nunczka 8 | 457

1 Jun 2009 / #221

Hey Pig ****. Some day when I am ready, I am going to let you in on a little secret.. Until then you are going to have me tormenting your ass. You probably dressed up in camauflage uniform while in the Boy Scouts playing war.

shopgirl 6 | 928

1 Jun 2009 / #222

General question to no one in particular: Do the victors of a war (like the Allies in WWII) get special dispensation regarding war crimes? Why didn't the US get hung out to dry over the bobs dropped on Japanese civilians?

shopgirl: What geographical questions did you have in mind????Like beside how many oceans Ukraine lies :D

Erm, lets see now......there's the Black Sea and that little spill-over puddle Azov thingie. :)

Do seas count as oceans though? I think of oceans being more vast and expansive than "seas".

What next?! :)

Babinich 1 | 453

1 Jun 2009 / #223

It was war Nunczka...

There were instances of Allied war crimes in Italy both against soldiers and civilians.

Why didn't the US get hung out to dry over the bobs dropped on Japanese civilians?

And Dresden???

shopgirl 6 | 928

1 Jun 2009 / #224

And Dresden???

Yeah, that was nasty too.
But the British helped with that one.

A 1953 United States Air Force report written by Joseph W. Angell defended the operation as the justified bombing of a military and industrial target, which was a major rail transportation and communication centre, housing 110 factories and 50,000 workers in support of the German war effort.[4] Against this, several researchers have argued that not all of the communications infrastructure, such as the bridges, were in fact targeted, nor were the extensive industrial areas outside the city centre.[5] It has been argued that Dresden was a cultural landmark of little or no military significance, a "Florence on the Elbe," as it was known, and the attacks were indiscriminate area bombing and not proportional for the commensurate military gains.

scrappleton - | 829

1 Jun 2009 / #225

But the British helped with that one.

They didn't just help they commanded the raid. Do I think they should be condemned? No.. the Germans were shooting V2 rockets right into London hoping to kill as many people as they could. Bombing subways. You reap what you sow.

PlasticPole 7 | 2641

1 Jun 2009 / #226

The Allies were soon to develop nuclear technology - a sure winner. Poland and all the other coutries devoured by Russia could have been saved!!

That's a good and relentlessly pondered question. As far as the atom bomb goes, be glad it was never used. It would have been a disaster. It sucked we used it twice in Japan, using it anywhere in Europe would have compounded the damage. Maybe that's why it was never used. We learned from the Hiroshima experience. It was so horrific no one has been bombed since!.

nunczka 8 | 457

1 Jun 2009 / #227

The war in Europe was over in early May 1945. The bombs on Japan were dropped on August 5th and 9th 1945. Stalin did not push the cold war too far for fear of the Atomic bomb. Russia had not yet perfected it.

Babinich 1 | 453

1 Jun 2009 / #228

It sucked we used it twice in Japan

There was no choice but to use it.

OP Wroclaw Boy

1 Jun 2009 / #229

Theres always a choice, the main excuse was the fact the the Japs bombed Pearl harbour unannounced.

nunczka 8 | 457

1 Jun 2009 / #230

And the Batann Death march, the beheading of American Soldiers, the forced labor camps. the rape of Nanking. Oh yes. The lives of the many Americans that would have died invading Japan.

scrappleton - | 829

1 Jun 2009 / #231

the main excuse was the fact the the Japs bombed Pearl harbour unannounced.

Well, they didn't exactly follow Geneva when they captured us or the British either. They made the Germans look like party hosts.

OP Wroclaw Boy

1 Jun 2009 / #232

And the Batann Death march, the beheading of American Soldiers, the forced labor camps. the rape of Nanking. Oh yes. The lives of the many Amircans that would have died invading Japan.

Indeed it was quite convenient that the US had the tech from German scientists to drop on the Japs.

They made the Germans look like party hosts.

Absolutely, although i dont think the senate would have been so quick to pass the act through without Pearl harbour, it was the perfect excuse.

scrappleton - | 829

1 Jun 2009 / #233

US had the tech from German scientists

They wouldn't have had anything without Robert Goddard and Oppenheimer was born in NYC.

nunczka 8 | 457

1 Jun 2009 / #234

[quote=Wroclaw Boy]
Indeed it was quite convenient that the US had the tech from German scientists to drop on the Japs.[/

Possession is 9/10 of the law. So who in the hell cares who designed it. America ended up with it and we used it wisely. Using the Bomb saved a lot of serviceman's lives so they could go home and develop Baby Boomers. Making guys like Scrappleton happy

OP Wroclaw Boy

1 Jun 2009 / #235

Possession is 9/10 of the law.

Ahh that would be more like theft actually.

So who in the hell cares who designed it.

I do, and im sure Bratwurst Boy does or any other German for that matter.

I knew if i stated German that would get a rise out of some yank. Get over yourself man.

scrappleton - | 829

1 Jun 2009 / #236

Making guys like Scrappleton happy

What a coincidence, both of us will have paid for Baby Boomers when it's all over.

nunczka 8 | 457

1 Jun 2009 / #237

Ahh that would be more like theft actually.

Yeah, did ya ever hear the phrase that all is fair in love and war.

I do, and im sure Bratwurst Boy does or any other German for that matter.

Bratwurst or any other German and their technology matered not. They lost the war. AGAIN 1917 & 1939. They are losers that will never learn

markcooper 4 | 80

1 Jun 2009 / #238

Yes Stalingrad..........let me know what you think, will be interesting.

Bratwurst Boy 8 | 11831

1 Jun 2009 / #239

AGAIN 1917 & 1939. They are losers that will never learn

Well...you all needed to hold hands with your buddies to beat little plucky Germany...what an achievement! Not to mention a much needed alliance with that other monster Stalin!

Oh and when the US hadn't had babysat Britain and France in the first war Germany would had won and there wouldn't had been a second war, no Hitler, no holocaust, nothing....but some never learn do they!

And what chutzpah...getting kicked by some third world asians in 1975 but calling Germany who fighted the whole world for 6 years losers...look in the mirror you weakling.

You can throw nukes at civilians to "save" your soldiers and win the war...my what brave and heroic you are!!!

And without the scientific thefts out of Germany after the war you wouldn't be nowhwere were you are now!
Germany again is the top dog in Europe...the world is laughing at you right now..and that after two lost wars..who is the loser here!

scrappleton - | 829

1 Jun 2009 / #240

AGAIN 1917 & 1939. They are losers that will never learn

They'll be back, man. Fredrick the Great, Bismark, Hitler, you don't produce all these people by accident. Hopefully, we'll have the sense to stay out it next time. Limey and the Canadians can go beach combing for all I care.