Return PolishForums LIVE
  PolishForums Archive :
Archives - 2005-2009 / History  % width 1,341

Poland-Russia: never-ending story?


Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
4 Sep 2007 /  #211
-Let's leave those strange Russians to live as they want...

You even dont know how similar Russian people are to Poles ... (regardning to your sentence) ...
Puzzler 9 | 1,088  
4 Sep 2007 /  #212
re: You even dont know how similar Russian people are to Poles

- Does it follow Lukasz does even know how much the Russians are smilar to Poles? Please share your knowledge, Lukasz.

So there are folks who 'see' smilarities - great smilarities to boot! - between us and the Russians?

Wow, fascinating indeed.
:)
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
4 Sep 2007 /  #213
yes I see huge similarities ...

I have been to several European countries, and I find Russian PEOPLE similar, they have similar sense of humour, they reactions are emotional (maybe a littlebit more than our), our cusine is similar, ect.

What is more I noticed that it is very easy for us to make good personal contacts with Russians.

I can support my argument by choices made by wetern managers, who wants to make bussines in Russia ... Do you know who do they choose to go there and represent their interests ... us Poles ... because we have had comunism to, we understand post-comunistic bureaucracy, we know how to do bussines in eastern european countries ;)

our lanuguages are littlebit simillar.

Comon guys, we know that in Russia they have regime now, we had several years ago regime to ... which was atackig USA, UK and supporting USSR, and we as the Poles were waiting fore the oportunity to be free.

Whe have the balls to stick to our guns and fight for our interest in hard relationships with our neibours, but democracy (it is in our and their bussines) in russia isnt possible by forcing them.

There is one big difference betwen us, it is in our history ... Poles were always anarchistic, and we know what the freedom is ... Russians were autoritarive and their citizens dont even know how it is to be realy free (even in their own country)
ConstantineK 26 | 1,389  
5 Sep 2007 /  #214
There is one big difference betwen us, it is in our history ... Poles were always anarchistic, and we know what the freedom is ... Russians were autoritarive and their citizens dont even know how it is to be realy free (even in their own country)

You should add "IMHO" when you talk about democracy in Russia!!!

But in some points you are right... Poles are pronounced anarchists and it's very dangerous not only for them, but for those organisations in which Poland has a membership....It was real Alexander's I mistake when he included G. Duch. of Warsaw in Ru. Emp.

We dont care about their feeling toward us. Once their arrogance resulted in 50 years of our dominion in Germany...
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
5 Sep 2007 /  #215
I see that after the moment of hesitation, you have started talking your old speach again...

You just have shown us your human face, in my opinion it is not a shame for man to have human feelings.

When you think you are strange, you became realy strange. So head up ;)

You are not strange ...

I think instead thinking about your "controle zone" in Europe,you should buy some flowes for your girls, and try to make your own country better ;) (In my previous posts I have defined what in my opinion better is ... )

Live and give other people to live :)
ConstantineK 26 | 1,389  
6 Sep 2007 /  #216
I see that after the moment of hesitation, you have started talking your old speach again...

Sorry me Lukasz, but you dont hear me when I make hints about that nobody in Russia wants to waste our human and other resources to rebuild our zone in europe. But it's just you who want to interfer in our domestic life under the far-fetched pretence that Russia has no "right"(from your point of view) democracy!!! Why you always want to fight with somebody or something? Is it a complex or something else?
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
6 Sep 2007 /  #217
I make hints about that nobody in Russia wants to waste our human and other resources to rebuild our zone in europe.

Czeczenia

Politkowska
Puzzler 9 | 1,088  
6 Sep 2007 /  #218
re: nobody in Russia wants to waste our human and other resources to rebuild our zone in europe

- If so, why do Russkies go hysterical when the Yanks consider installing their missiles in Poland and Czechia, or when the Baltics want to tear down Russki war memorials (those memorials should be torn down for their horrific ugliness and kitschiness alone)?

And wasn't it you, clown, who babbled in one of your posts about Rossiya's having a growing appetite for grabbing Poland back?

As for 'always' fighting with somebody or something, the history of your country shows all too plainly who is the constant aggressor and bully, not just towards your immediate neighbours, but in such remote places as Cuba and Angola.

What would you say about the genocide you, bandits, are committing in Chechnya right now, while the German-ruled EU winks at it?

As for a 'complex,' isn't it you, Russkies, who have a deep-rooted inferiority complex towards 'the West'? Don't you call 'the West' 'zgniliy zapad,' rotten West?

As far as waste is concerned, it's certainly a waste of time to talk to you seriously.

Another Russki liar, puffed-up with chutzpah and at the same time with the ever-present muzhiky inferiority complex.
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
6 Sep 2007 /  #219
Georgia

Good picture of our domocracy

cbc.ca/world/story/2007/04/14/kasparov-arrest.html?ref=rss

something about your democracy (in english)

ksaspa
Puzzler 9 | 1,088  
6 Sep 2007 /  #220
re: Poles were always anarchistic

- Interesting indeed, Lukasz. I think that the Polonophobic German and Russian propagandists of the past would be happy about such a statement coming from a Pole.

But your word choice seems to be due to your weak grasp of English, so perhaps you should be forgiven.

No, in reality we Poles have never been anarchistic, nor rebellious towards our own state. (Our rejecton of absolutism of the monarch is something different from 'anarchism').

And yes, we were always rebellious towards the Russki and German occupiers of our country. As such, we're no different from any other oppressed nation with guts.

Anarchism and terrorism are actually Russki inventions (re: Bakunin, Kropotkin, the tsar assassins, the Bolsheviks).

In reality, it's the Russkies and Germans, not us Poles, who are the troublemakers in Europe.
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
6 Sep 2007 /  #221
Ok I shoud writte more anarhistic... In XVIII century we were definitly anarchistic, but we were able to reform our sytstem ourselfs (first constitution in the europe) but our neigbours were scared about that and atacked us ...

But all in all i Think that we suolud be quite pride that when other countries in our part of europe were definitly leaded by absolute rulers, we evolulated form more or less anarhistic country to one of the most liberal systems in all over the world ... The problem was we were to weak to defend it (we were atacked by Russians, Prussians and Austrians)
ConstantineK 26 | 1,389  
6 Sep 2007 /  #222
And wasn't it you, clown,

O!!!! Democracy in action!!!

First of all, I am not a clown! Come on, be selfrestrained :-|
Puzzler 9 | 1,088  
6 Sep 2007 /  #223
re: O!!!! Democracy in action!!!

- And what do you mean by that?

re: First of all, I am not a clown!

- You make one of yourself all the time.

And now you're unable to beat my arguments with facts, so you try to divert attention from it by picking on my calling you - absolutely correctly - a clown.

Get lost, Russki clown.

re: In XVIII century we were definitly anarchistic

- Really?! Well, if it was allegedly so defnite, it shouldn't be hard for you to provide some facts. Please give them.
ConstantineK 26 | 1,389  
6 Sep 2007 /  #224
The problem was we were to weak to defend it (we were atacked by Russians, Prussians and Austrians)

nonsense!!! Seek problems inside! As I previousely said it was bad time for constitution for Poland with its mad nodility and poor peasants! So the constitution of 1791 was just a scrap. You can protest, but only as par of Ru Emp, Poland got some industrial potential. Before, it was just a poor, peasant country with dark Catholic obscurantic superstitions.

Get lost, Russki clown.

You behave yourself as you are not Pole, but like bad variation of Lyah!

Tell me your arguments in less exalted manner !!!

re: O!!!! Democracy in action!!!

- And what do you mean by that?

Ironically you represent a bad variation of democracy, democracy of permissiveness!!

Bad Boy!
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
6 Sep 2007 /  #225
ok so firstly constatnionK ... our citizens were always richer, better educated more tolerant, and absolutely more free than yours ... ( talk about rich per capita) Nothing has changed ...

Puzzer,

"In the eighteenth century, the powers of the monarchy and the central administration became purely formal. Kings were denied permission to provide for the elementary requirements of defense and finance, and aristocratic clans made treaties directly with foreign sovereigns. Attempts at reform were stymied by the determination of the szlachta to preserve their "golden freedoms" as well as the liberum veto. Because of the chaos sown by the veto provision, under Augustus III (1733-63) only one of thirteen Sejm sessions ran to an orderly adjournment."

and about the reforms to constantineK

"Stanislaw August's process of renovation reached its climax on May 3, 1791, when, after three years of intense debate, the "Four Years' Sejm" produced what is claimed as Europe's first modern codified constitution. Conceived in the liberal spirit of the contemporaneous document in the United States, the constitution recast Poland-Lithuania as a hereditary monarchy and abolished many of the eccentricities and antiquated features of the old system. The new constitution abolished the individual veto in parliament; provided a separation of powers among the legislative, executive, and judicial branches of government; and established "people's sovereignty" (for the noble and bourgeois classes)"
Puzzler 9 | 1,088  
6 Sep 2007 /  #226
Where did you get this quote from, Lukasz? It would be, ahem, nice to give the author's name, source.

re: treaties directly with foreign sovereigns

- This means: Russia and Germany were behind the 'anarchy.' They encouraged it e.g. by giving bribes to SOME of the aristocrats.

You've got something of this sort in the past in numerous countries, e.g. Scotland.

You've got something of this sort today e.g. in the USA. But is it called 'anarchy' and frowned upon...?

re: Augustus III

- A German. He hated Poland. Not really our king.

The Poles as a nation - the majority of Poles - have always been pro-government. We have never had a revolution (violent overthrow of government).

The Russians had it.
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
6 Sep 2007 /  #227
So I see our history in this way: X century the begining of our coutry (kingdom) XV century the begining of Polish parlamentary XVI century golden age , XVIII century cirsise of ou system, than one of the most liberal reforms in all over the world, unfortumately stoped by our neigoburs ... Which started process of Russification and Germanization of our citizens, but they were to weak to make us just next conquered country ... And now we are free again ...
Puzzler 9 | 1,088  
6 Sep 2007 /  #228
A good summary of our history, Lukasz.

re: And now we are free again

- Not entirely. There are powerful forces, both inside and outside, working against us. Many Poles seem not to notice - or not to be willing to notice - this.
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
6 Sep 2007 /  #229
I have it form wikipedia
Puzzler 9 | 1,088  
6 Sep 2007 /  #230
re: I have it form wikipedia

- It's not a serious respectable source. Try to get quotes from good books, such as 'God's Playground' by Davies.
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
6 Sep 2007 /  #231
I have already read it ... but text form wikipedia was quite easy to copy here
ConstantineK 26 | 1,389  
6 Sep 2007 /  #232
ok so firstly constatnionK ... our citizens were always richer, better educated more tolerant, and absolutely more free than yours ... ( talk about rich per capita) Nothing has changed ...

Firstly your citizens-peasants were liberated by rissian tsar, and you have democracy only for nobility...

There are powerful forces, both inside and outside, working against us. Many Poles seem not to notice - or not to be willing to notice - this

Ohhh, persecution mania!!!

It's not a serious respectable source. Try to get quotes from good books, such as 'God's Playground' by Davies.

Aa I wrote, this work represents only one, Polish point of view
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
6 Sep 2007 /  #233
- Not entirely. There are powerful forces, both inside and outside, working against us. Many Poles seem not to notice - or not to be willing to notice - this.

Hmmm so I think that next month we will vote for other options ;)

irstly your citizens-peasants were liberated by rissian tsar, and you have democracy only for nobility...

Oh yes ... what you should notice:

Your tsar gave them more laws, just because he was sure about up coming uprise (our nobels deciided to give those peasants more freedom too) And what is more, how we could give them more freedom when we were under your occupation, we couldnt change the law ...

What can be interesting, we were preparing next law after the constitutnion (XVIII century), we wanted to give more laws for peasants, but you atacked us. It was years before your tsar gave those peasants some laws ...

Aa I wrote, this work represents only one, Polish point of view

we choose to recomedize for forigners N Davies, as a good writter and expert of Polish issues just because, he is English man who neutraly writes about this part of Europe. There are more Polish history books translated into English, but we just want people to read neutral writter. Not German, not Russian, not Polish.
ConstantineK 26 | 1,389  
6 Sep 2007 /  #234
Your tsar gave them more laws, just because he was sure about up coming uprise (our nobels deciided to give those peasants more freedom too) And what is more, how we could give them more freedom when we were under your occupation, we couldnt change the law ...

Objection!!! Alexader I gave Poland nice constitution, which was abolished only after uprising and revolution attempt during the rein of Nicolas I! Moreover Kingdom of Poland never been included in the Ru Emp but just was united with Emp by personal Union, even such "despotic" tsar as Nicolas I was crowned apart from Russia, in Poland as constitutional soverein! All have been changed only after your grandfather's uprising, so you cant refer on the fact that you had't right to change your life. You had absolutely liberal constitution!

we choose to recomedize for forigners N Davies, as a good writter and expert of Polish issues just because, he is English man who neutraly writes about this part of Europe. There are more Polish history books translated into English, but we just want people to read neutral writter. Not German, not Russian, not Polish.

As I wrote he has wife of polish origine!!!

By the way!!! All attempts of Poland to present yourself as bridge between Europe and Russia are ridiculous!! At present Russian nation has much higher education level than in poland, due to russian revolution.
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
6 Sep 2007 /  #235
I object too. The Poland you are writting about was only small part of cultural or even ethnical Poland.
We had persnoal union with you ?
You atacked us, your tsar took our crown and told us "we have the union". Oh yes it was realy nice union ...
Moreover, he decided to make liberal experiment, on this small piece of land with small local authonomy. But latter changed his mind ... Poles were not to thankful...

Our soldiers prefered to die in fight against Russians than die in your wars as your ally against other european nations ...
I dont understand one thing, are you trying to prove that Russinas did somethig good for Poles ?
You should just agree that you had (you still try to have) imperial policy, which last times failed.

By the way!!! All attempts of Poland to present yourself as bridge between Europe and Russia are ridiculous!! At present Russian nation has much higher education level than in poland, due to russian revolution.

Oh yes, I m not so sure if you even solved problem of illiteracy in eastern part of your country.
ConstantineK 26 | 1,389  
6 Sep 2007 /  #236
You atacked us, your tsar took our crown and told us "we have the union". Oh yes it was realy nice union ...
Moreover, he decided to make liberal experiment, on this small piece of land with small local authonomy. But latter changed his mind ... Poles were not to thankful...

Sorry but it was an answer in return of polish invasion in Russia in ally with Napoleonic Armade. Sure, you could object me that it was answer on partition of poland in the previous reigns! But Alexandr was very yielding fellow, and I asure you that he could granted to poland independance, if he didnt feel constant aggresive minds of polish society toward russia for return of east lands! But it wasn't native polish lands, they were accused during troubles in Russia in previous centures!

It would be rather stupidly to deny that all partitions in poland were aggresive acts, but just could say that all of them had some logical background or basis. Partitions weren't only a simple aggration, am I right?

Quoting: ConstantineK
By the way!!! All attempts of Poland to present yourself as bridge between Europe and Russia are ridiculous!! At present Russian nation has much higher education level than in poland, due to russian revolution.
Oh yes, I m not so sure if you even solved problem of illiteracy in eastern part of your country.

Which parts do you mean? Even nothern nationalities obliged to give their children in school
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
6 Sep 2007 /  #237
Which parts do you mean? Even nothern nationalities obliged to give their children in school

ok maybe I will show it form the different point, there was focus made on Kamczatka during Abramowicz as a governer there, do you know that 30 % of people living there ... thinks Abramowicz is a GOD !!

You know your way of thinking is just so hard to understand, but it shows your imperial way of thinking, You conquer countries, and try to place under the command of your government, You use several ways to make your aim real, by force or by encouragement.

It doesnt play any difference to you.
You know, but we just dont want anthing to do with you on political level ... And you will never break us ... even by economic sanktions , threads or even force.

You should just accept it.
ConstantineK 26 | 1,389  
6 Sep 2007 /  #238
Hah !!! But Poland all in white and downy?
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
6 Sep 2007 /  #239
Ask ukrainians what do they prefer, EU or union with Russia :)))))) Ask Gerogian people about their choice. Maybe you domineted them in the past, but it doesnt mean you have any arguments to have influence on them now. To be honest last times nobody wants anything ealse than petrol and gas from you ... And now you try to use gas and petrol to be still a player. Maybe you have some succes in this new imperial policy, but I think you have made faltstart ...

Hah !!! But Poland all in white and downy?

in comparison to Russia ... Yes.
In Russia there are some positive democratic forces, your government is trying to fight with them, but maybe in the future they will win ... and you will become normal country ...
gene iz kool  
6 Sep 2007 /  #240
yeah i need 2 no something about the russian revolution 4 reading class kan u help??

Archives - 2005-2009 / History / Poland-Russia: never-ending story?Archived