Poland-Russia: never-ending story?

no,you are most welcome.
he just reminded me on member named Crow,which always talk about slavic union,serbian superiority,and a great russians who are polish best friends,but you are not friendly enough..

since crow has been silent for some time,i wondered...nevermind:))

Polish king was also respected even by rokosz participants. Exept Bar konfederacja partisans as far as I know no rokoszans required any detronement (Zebzydowski or Lubomirski rokosz). According to Constitution 1791 King is intouchable and inrespounsable/

That's not a totalitarian state.

of course,i think that slavic union is a total bull,we don't need russians to rule over us all.

Yes,
That is only one of thousands of books about communist terror.

But I was talking about your current master.

Slavic Union: I think that Russia should aim to join EU by ... 2030.
Kosovo: it's a trace of velikorusski chauvinism as to Russians to stand for "orthodox brothers" serbs. Still, i do think that European countries should carry out an independent policy. States's aggressive influence is a time bomb.

My only master is president Putin. I'll respect the head of the state despite its personality/ Obedience is a different thing.
Shall you shame me for being a Sarmate ideals partisan?

vs. peasantry? :)

Being Russian I'm against not only Kosovo de jure independence but also any kind of Osetian and Abhasian separatism from Georgia as well as East Ukranian Russian-speaking de jure separation from Ukraune.

Each state limit all over the world may be considered injust by somebody. Europe isn't an exception. Vilnius Lithuania is one of the examples.

Kosovo de jure independence wil provoke the similar attempts all over the world because despite Ahtisaari statements its situation isn't so unique.
Neither USA nor NAto will be able to control this situation


Atilla you are Russian. You know that Russian middle class is defensless and even is unable to realize that it should defend itself. Our "elite" think how to distribute sone gas profits among lumpens. If gas disappears, lumpens will distribute middle class property (in direct or indirect way) Sarmats formed some 15 per cent of population and were able to controle all life in RP. 15 per cent and their social status - all this shows that the majority of szlachta belonged to middle class. A good example


Russians also reject slavic union. Slavic countries are qualified now as possible obstacle for Russian business and trade with "Old Europeans"


First of all I'll see how Polish government wins postcommunism in Poland following only 45 years of communist rule and 18 years of postcommunist one under the controle of democratic powers.

Only after that you will receive a certain right to condemn a country which siffered from communism during 74 years and was not later controlled in its democratic development by free world.

I'm sure Kaczynskis don't have even a correct political technology to win in this sphere. As well as teache oter ex communist countries

Truhlei,
Well, i don't know really. May be you are right. I think the extermination of noble elite in Russia won't be reimbursed ever. Gas tycoons (i used to work at Gazprom for some time) don't have a chance. Their childrean or children of their children - probably.

yes my friend,but i'm afraid russia will stand with china,few days ago russia signed with china some statement of special relations.in the other hand,argues with west about almost everything,russia left that'' no mass weapons pact''.but i think americans are teasing russia too.but who needs another cold war?

it would be nice to see russia in eu by 2030,but i doubt some head european countries as england will allow another strong country in europe.


;i think that states are like marriages;))if someone's not happy,then divorce.share your earnings,and split in peace.stay friends,for sake of people(children).politicians are responsible for people,not for their own dignity.

i personally believe that opressed people want out,and the opressors are trying to preserve their milking cows,if you get what i mean.

Atilla I'm sure we have a wrong idea of szlachta and Rissian nobility.
The image of these classes in the 19 century doesn't give us anything. To think about nobility or szlachta exploring the examples of the 19 century is the same thing that to learn about Helsinki 1952Olympic Games sportsmen preparation studying one of its champions today when he is after 70.

Nobility as well as szlachta were efficient in 16-17 centuries when their manners and education wasn't much higher than the lewel of peasants.
As to szlachta it can't be compared with Russian or Western nobility. It is a unique phenomenon. It wasn't a class or social group. It was a little people (some 15 per cent) within tle big people.

It is sometimes similar to communist party in totalitarian countries/ I mean social duties and prospects for career only for party members. I don't mean communist ideology by itself although the antihuman ideas turned communist states to totalitarian existence without any Golden Liberty for anybody.

It is quite possible now to establish an irregular forces with organization and honour tribunals. The participants will occupy all profitable posts in state politics or business and won't permit penetration of no-irregulars. That's the szlachta as well as nobility algorytm.

15 per cent will signify its penetration into all spheres. All major public servants, all major military officers (from major) all businessmen and all major managers. And volunteers downstairs as szlachta golota.

Everything is prepared for this. Everibody will join to have success and take duties. Such group (for Russia some 20 million) will controle everything and rebels will become impossible as well as reforms won't take into account lumpens' protests.

Poland and Litwa can teach us. Not contemporary one.

Excuse me... ?


The difference is that you created communism...

For any independence de jure (I don't discuss de facto one the kosovars have since 1999) a carantin is requires. North Cyprus is waiting for 33 years


You don't read Jaroslaw Kaczynski's speeches. You don't like Jaroslaw? But there are some clever ideas in his speeches. The ways of its putting in practice isn't so clever.

But in any way don't ask moskal about Polish fight against postcommunism. Read more Polish newspapers


I didn't create communism. There were some Russians who participated in that. But not only Russians. Study the ideas of Konstantin Kalinowski, red fraction leader in 1863. His "Red" term was used by Soviet communists.

And I always blamed germans...

And the same advice. Look for Polish communist colaborationists and their sons and grandsons. Their participation in Polish oppression was more evident than the participation of 99 per cent of Russians. Now they have a higher living standarts than the sons of their victims. But you won't look for them and repeat them everything you told me, unknown moskal. I'm long away. It is comfortable to accuse me. It is imposible to make Polish postcommunists give an explication whi they are still living better than their victims.

I told peasantry spirit governs. That is one of such demonstrations, isn't it?
To be brave with unknown moskal, to condemn him without any knowledge about his familiars' possible participation in Polish tragedy and to keep silence with the postcommunist next door. Quite a peasant virtud

Unlike most of Poles I like Jaro. What's your point ?

You asked me about postcommunism in Poland. It is described in his works.

Germans created theory which had hardly anything in common with totalitarian and genocidal state Russians created.


The point is that without your soldats these people would never get power here, not even close to that.


So you compare our problems with punishing traitors to your situations, when the whole country is run by "ex" KGB/GRU people ??

Don't take it too hard my slavic brother))
As for "state" it was genocidal towards russians mainly. And it was titled Soviet Union - communists hated the historical name.

Yes. I know.

The Kingdom of Poland invaded Russia and occupied
Moscow way before Nepolean and made Hitler look
amateurish.

The most important thing is finding a way to get on
in the future. It's not looking too good at the moment.

No, Grzegorz, the point is that now without Soviet soldiers you are unable to write here that some traitors families still prosper following the opression of patriots in the past. Prospor because they still have clans that persecuted liberty in the past. Clans of mutual assistance (read Jaro respected by you as well as by me).

The point is that you can't mention next door traitors family and cut his hair as it was after war/ Or - in a human society - at least make yhese families remember their past and at least support your Jaro by fear of social boikot. The vice versa they make propaganda against twins.

Unfortunately Jaro didn't prepare well to that fight.
In such situation it is so easy to condemn all Russians. They are away, have their own problems and won't react to your words in such way as postcommunist clan with guys in your street may react.

What... ?

There is a real chain. No perspectives for traitors without Soviet soldiers...
But did the Red Army represent any democracy? Did it have any opportunitu to create any konfederacja as it was in Pospolitoje Ruszenje (pardon for spelling)?

In this case nobody could decide to invade Poland and dye for Brealau transmission to Germany.
Did they at least have any opportunity to escape as did thousands of Russian soldiers in 18 century in RP?
So, the reason why Soviet soldiers were loosing their lives in Poland we should find in the past, in Soviet system of opression after 1917.
Nobody elected Soviet power in Russia despite the existence of electoral mechanisms since at least 1906. In Czesz Republic by the way communists were elected in 1948 when Red army was away. But nobody was able to defend himself although the minority started rebels in 1917.

Do you know why this occured? Are sure any Nation is protected now against such tragedy? What do you know about possible protection? Please write it. I'm studying this topic more than 12 years. It is very interesting to learn your opinion

Oh, now theres a group that really respect each other. I'd be embarassed if I were them. Bunch of losers IMO. What military beat each others this way? Pathetic. Are they that bored? But, this is another story.......

carry on :)

It is a lie? No post-communists prospering thanks to clan participation? Well, I'll look for Jaro's topics.


You know the number of KGB agents. You have managed to penetrate into KGB secrets.
As a matter of fact KGB was prohibited by party leaders to have too much agents. Because many agents could permit KGB rebel against party leaders. With the reduced number of agents Andropov managed to blackmail former party leader Breznew. Thet's the reason why only 5 per cent of Soviet people were KGB agents.

People were controlled in another way: party membership was inevitable for career, only party member could controle not only the whole USSR but also every street, every factory. A party member had to support party policy or he could be expelled loosing good career.

You see no difference with Poland


Grzegorz, I think you can't undersand me because you have never contacted people whose Polish speaking ancestors spent the perioud between 1917-1945 within the Soviet Union and have an internal view of all the challenges in the USSR. If you were among them your ideas should be quite different.

I'm sure it is not your merit that your ancestors spent that period in Poland not in the USSR. It was not the mistake of Polish speaking people in the USSR that they faced communism earlier. Many of them were deported to Siberia earlier. Some public servants didn't have right to work among Polish-speaking people. Some left for internel Russian territories by unempoyment at the beginning of 20 century. After 1920 in some Soviet territories it was very dangerous to claim so called optation (return to Poland and its kresy). Many people didn't try to return by fear for their familiars.

In the 30-s hundreds of thousands of Polish speaking people were killed or sentenced to many years of imprisonment by suspect of being spies.
More victims thain in Katyn and post war Poland taken together.
When anybody hates yhat means that he didn't suffer much. Those who suffered much don't have force to hate, only to persist as individual.

For my Polish speaking grandfather the top of heroism was not to change his western name and etnicity in pasport. But his parents had to leave their house in Saransk Volga region and to die away from their home. They were afraid after 1939 when their familiars places Grodno and Oszmjany became Soviet NKVD will learn smth about their relatives that seemed to be successful in Poland.

Or course there were people that suffered more. But everybody for survival had to put their families past in secret from their children. My grandfather didn't return from the war and my mother - his daughter - died with good memories about grandies but with no information about her family. She knew only names and approximately the regions of burth. And admiration of their education and kindness.

Now after my mammies' dearth I learned their genealogy untill 17 century. visited Grodno and folwark my grand-grandfather was born. But even before I learned about their past in archives I visited more and more The places in ancient Great Lithuania they were from. It is like a prenatal instinct of Fatherland. After 40 I feel myself happy in that lands.

You see my family managed to see Soviet power from inside from the very beginning.
No idea that Russian community in general was more guilty in communism than my ancestors? than other Polish speaking people in the same situation.
Look for other people in Russia with Polish speaking ancestors. I'm sure they will tell you the same thing. At least the majority of them.

Litwa is my Fatherland but I'm proud of beeng Orthodox Russian

That's true... and I agree with some things you are saying but the general point is... ?

Let us discuss general point. I think the general point is whichi values should be first defended if you want to escape slavery. And the algorytms of their defence.

Grzegorz Poland and Litwa for Politology is the same thing that Roman Empire for Law.
You can give a term to each process in politics using only Polish and Lithanian History, their political system. Till today you can understand any political process if you know RP political system and history.

RP democracy managed to resist so great attack as Potop and English or American democracies could only fail in such circumstancies. There were no adecuate survivals of any democratic or non-democratic Nation. You know? I'm ignorant. Sritish and American traditional politology is nothing in comparison with algorytms of RP. They were happy to be separated from enemies by seas and ocans, but their internal Civil wars were terrible. I'm deeply convinced in that

But neither in Polish history nor all over the world nobody respects Sarmat perioud. A great perjury in historical researches. Sometimes RP is even not mentioned in history of democratic development.

I should laught at the idea that anarchy killed RP. But see there is nothing in the world that is accepted with such unanimity as this idea. Even the idea that 2X2=4 can find more oppositors.

Polish endowments translate into Russian only historic researches that claim that anarchy was the reason of RP trouble in 1795. Even a moskal can't observe such self-humilation. in case the most RP deficiencies were more common with its neighbours (rokoszy, magnaty corruption). Nobody of these historians can even imagine that Three Black Eagles Union was a strong power. RP as well as each Nation in such situation was unable to reject. That a possible strong regular army could rebel, kill all liberties in RP kill half a population in Spy suspect take all resources of the country and then debilitated RP could be a more comfortable victim for enemies. Nobody noticed that.

Many democrates exist all over the world but when they look at RP they become to teach Tirania. Elected King is bad, reduced superior power is worse, Sejm votation in favour of war or against it is the worst thing. Nobody asked why the poor szlachta was eager to defend Golden freedom although among poor people were no Romantics. Sarmat obscurantism opposed to Enlightment is condemned all over the world - do you know the price of Enlightment, this pre-communism?

I don't speak in details about menor lie. When for example it is written that Liberum Veto killed RP, but only very few researches state that Liberun Veto ended in 1764. Many examples of the sort.

Everybody in the world condemnes RP in generar and sometimes glorifies some romantic heroes. Everybody says there was the worst in Europe the System that gave at the beginning of 16 century right to vote to a higher percentage of people than England in 1832 300 years later.

Polish literature about sarmat perioud isn't translated into Russian and even English. One cannot take from Internet in Russian or English books of Pasek or Rzewiski. Poland is fighting for Belarus democracy but it doesn't give texts on common past (Belarus ruling circles dismiss people researching Litwa history).

Many Polish public servants receive good salaries for Polish propaganda abroad but detailed Polish history isn't translated yet in the leading languages.
Everybody in the world hates RP history or loves it in some perverted forms: Many heroes bad political system.
Grzegorz, Imagine some similar is with Russia. Russia has sins but few people abroad know them (although we don't keep silence - you don't want to listen). And deficiencies you think the main sometimes are only the consecuencies as Soviet soldiers in Poland - they didn't have another way, everything started 30 years earlier. Why? By lack of democracy, poverty? Before 1917 there was a huge economic and political progress and Russia was winning a war.

I'm sure you weren't told about the reasons of communist victory.

re: As for "state" it was genocidal towards russians mainly.

- True. But it was predominantly Russians who committed all those atrocities against their own countrymen, weren't they?

You weren't invaded by another country, another people.

We were.

Hm, I wrote that I should never forgive the Russians, but as I speak to you, Russian guys, my adversity melts out, wehether I want it or not. :)

Maybe that's the way to get rid of adversity - talk to each other, even brutally and hatefully, let go the stuff inside?

By the way, the folks of Russian origin I encountered in America were never hostile towards me as a Pole. Especially one person was like a family member to me. But he was born in America and knew nothing about the bitter stuff between our nations.