Return PolishForums LIVE
  PolishForums Archive :
Archives - 2005-2009 / History  % width 1341

Poland-Russia: never-ending story?


matthias 3 | 429  
8 Mar 2008 /  #1291
A decent relationship yes, a good relationship no. Move on? More like pretend that the situation is not as bad as it is and just ignore it. IMO it would be counter-productive not to discuss it.

Sorry if it pisses you of but its just another point of view

In the end your right, but not very constructive.
janekb - | 57  
1 May 2008 /  #1292
Since participants here are mostly Americans, you were fed antirussian propaganda for generations. You are basking in conquering USSR and not realizing that it does not exist anymore.

Neither Poland nor Russia are not moving, we are neighbors and destined to live as such. It would be beneficial for both countries to be friends. Poles are tired of being heroes or Chrystusem Narodow (Christ of all nations).

Stop playing warlike video games and watching John Wayne movies. You guys are not famous for heroism or self sacrifice yourself.
ConstantineK 26 | 1389  
1 May 2008 /  #1293
Paszka You don't see the difference.... lol I can see a difference of 375 years.... by the way Polands invasion of Russia saved you from Ivan the terrible... Where's the thank you.

Very strange... but I always thought that it had been almost 15 years between death of Ioann IV and Polish invasion.....
southern 73 | 7071  
1 May 2008 /  #1294
almost 15 years between death of Ioann IV and Polish invasion.....

Yes,but his spirit continued to rule.
celinski 31 | 1258  
1 May 2008 /  #1295
Pland-Russia is a never ending story

Well lets see Germany has paid for what they did in WW2, No if Russia takes responsability, accountability, compensation to the victims a trusting relationship can start, built on respect this time. Until this happens guess we'll be typing.
Sasha 2 | 1083  
1 May 2008 /  #1296
Well lets see Germany has paid for what they did in WW2, No if Russia takes responsability, accountability, compensation to the victims a trusting relationship can start

What do you mean? How do you compare fascist Germany and Communist Russia? What victims do you mean? Millions of Russians left to rot in camps or ousted (the "kulaks")? My family suffered from communists as well but my view on that is like let bygones be bygones. We actully even have a law which allow you to get compensation for bygone crimes (I'm not sure if it works though). So you're welcome to ask for indemnity. BTW do you ask "banderovci" for compensation as they made wreathes around trees out of murdered polish, russian and ukranian kids which they later called "alley (road to) of genuine Ukraine"? If not then it's reasonable to ask for it right now since there're lots of their followers in the West part of Ukraine at nowadays unlike to Russia where it's harder to find any obvious follower of stalin's concepts... They made up "sovereign democracy" instead... which can be even more harmful though. We'll see. Hope my People will be sensible enough to replace our current regime in the nearest future.
southern 73 | 7071  
1 May 2008 /  #1297
Well lets see Germany has paid for what they did in WW2

Germany has paid.Ha,ha,ha,ha.What exactly have they paid and who has paid more?West or East Germany?
lesser 4 | 1311  
1 May 2008 /  #1298
Millions of Russians left to rot in camps or ousted (the "kulaks")? My family suffered from communists as well but my view on that is like let bygones be bygones. We actully even have a law which allow you to get compensation for bygone crimes (I'm not sure if it works though).

This is true but still Russia is the political heir of the SU. Similarly current Polish state is the political heir of People's Republic of Poland and must pay debts from this period.

In Poland influential groups enforce policy I would call "Forgive the Germans, don't mention about Ukrainians and attack Russian government". This is linked with future shape of Europe that those people would wish to see. While Russian government additionally causing many reasons to give them opportunity to such attacks and using skillfully such situation in domestic policy in Russia.

Hope my People will be sensible enough to replace our current regime in the nearest future.

May I ask what you would want to see instead of the current regime?
celinski 31 | 1258  
1 May 2008 /  #1299
my view on that is like let bygones be bygones. We actully even have a law which allow you to get compensation for bygone crimes (I'm not sure if it works though).

EU has requested "Russia" pay for compensation. Why should Poland have to pay for Stalin's crimes to the Polish families "Stalin" attacked and killed, removed from estates and sent to Siberia to slave until death. The only reason some got out was "Soviets" were attacked by "Nazi's" otherwise they were to be slaved to death. What about the families of "Katyn" victim's of "Stalin", and yes even "Russian" family members, that is any that had next of kin live to tell.

No, "Soviets" were not our allies, they used Polish when they needed help. All the while waiting to take over Poland. As they did in the end.
lesser 4 | 1311  
1 May 2008 /  #1300
EU has requested "Russia" pay for compensation.

Could you provide a link to this story?
celinski 31 | 1258  
1 May 2008 /  #1301
euobserver.com/9/26021

also see:

Should Russia pay compensation claims for the families "Stalin" removed?
lesser 4 | 1311  
1 May 2008 /  #1302
So there is no common stance and those who openly admit to be leftist are not keen at all to touch this topic.

Russia should pay, also to its own citizens.
Sasha 2 | 1083  
1 May 2008 /  #1303
May I ask what you would want to see instead of the current regime?

Sure. :) I may express my view on that yet I'm not sure you find my answer irrefragable. Nevertheless...
I don't generally care how Government call the system they build. Whether it's democracy in the US or totalitarism in Russia will always be polysemantic and questionable issues. And these are not the points. The points are that the law should work the same way for everybody regardless of his (her) wealth and political preference, there should be a good mechanism to fight against corruption, government shouldn't rally people round theories of hatred to other countries in the absence of self-improvement ideas, there should be free press and pluralism. These are the main problems of our current power. if we got rid of them, I'd probably be ok with the government.
lesser 4 | 1311  
2 May 2008 /  #1304
there should be a good mechanism to fight against corruption

OK, I understand your point. Just in this one case I would like to point out that there is no such reasonable "mechanism". If you want reduce corruption you must reduce state interventionism and what follow bureaucracy. Other way does not exist and as you can imagine politicians are not willing to reduce its own competences.
southern 73 | 7071  
2 May 2008 /  #1305
Should Russia pay compensation claims for the families "Stalin" removed?

Russia was winner in the war.Winners do not pay compensations.Did you see US or UK paying compensations to victims of bombardments in german cities or US paying compensations to Japanese in Nagashaki and Hiroshima?
lesser 4 | 1311  
2 May 2008 /  #1306
Russia was winner in the war.Winners do not pay compensations

The SU won the war against which country?
southern 73 | 7071  
2 May 2008 /  #1307
Against Germany,Austria,Italy,Hungary,Finland,Croatia,Romania,Bulgaria.And Japan at the end.
Sasha 2 | 1083  
2 May 2008 /  #1308
rp.pl/artykul/125944.html

It's hard to believe the Poles when they claim that the Katyn massacre or expulsion comes to them only for the truth , not about politics, as in relations with Ukraine unequivocally renounce the truth in the name of politics

This year marks the 65th anniversary of the massacre of Poles, Jews , Czechs and Ukrainians made ​​in Volhynia by Ukrainian nationalists. Strictly speaking , it is the anniversary of the height of the murder , which occurred in the summer months of 1943. The systematic extermination of the population of Volyn had already begun in 1942 and continued until the seizure of land by the Red Army in 1944.


Nice article I think... These are guys (OUN-UPA, banderovci) who you really need to demand compensation from, don't you? Do you think polish government intentionally justifies UPA's crimes shifting all the blame to Russia for political reason(s)?

Please let me know your opinion dear friends.

Lesser, maybe that's close to what you mentioned by "influential groups".
celinski 31 | 1258  
2 May 2008 /  #1309
Do you think polish government intentionally justifies UPA's crimes shifting all the blame to Russia for political reason(s)?

Poland has also met with Ukraine and asked for them to say they are sorry. We are still waiting.

GENOCIDE COMMITTED BY UKRAINIAN NATIONALISTS
ON THE POLISH POPULATION OF VOLHYNIA
DURING WORLD WAR II (1939-1945)

kresy.pl/wolyn/english.htm
Oscypek - | 107  
2 May 2008 /  #1310
Since participants here are mostly Americans, you were fed antirussian propaganda for generations. You are basking in conquering USSR and not realizing that it does not exist anymore.

Your post shows a great deal of ignorance. Have you ever been to the US?
lesser 4 | 1311  
3 May 2008 /  #1311
Against Germany,Austria,Italy,Hungary,Finland,Croatia,Romania,Bulgaria.And Japan at the end.

If so, they can pay compensation to Polish citizens robbed by Soviet policy.

Do you think polish government intentionally justifies UPA's crimes shifting all the blame to Russia for political reason(s)?

They are not shifting blame for Russia. They simply never raise the question of UPA crimes and often raise the question of Soviet crimes. Also this is not exactly the government fully responsible but some influential media outlets.

Those people that I mentioned are former Trotskytes turned to euro-socialism. Although these days their political representation is marginal (PD party) but they still control large part of media outlets (Agora media group). While every party that wants to achieve something in democracy must try to live in peace with greater part of journalists. Thus Polish governments are often pushed by those people toward such policy. They will never stop to attack Russia till your country wont become euro-socialist. There is no nationalism behind their motivation at all.
Borrka 37 | 593  
3 May 2008 /  #1312
Guys, enlighten me pls.
How does Volhynia slaughter make any excuse to Russian criminals ?

I'm all ear.
lesser 4 | 1311  
3 May 2008 /  #1313
How does Volhynia slaughter make any excuse to Russian criminals ?

This is not an excuse. I simply point out that all these complains from Polish side are out of proportion. If you compare this with Ukraine when UPA seems to be worshiped in th west. This proofs dishonesty of mainstream media outlets. Ukraine is willing to join euro-socialism camp so they can get away without criticism. (Note that I still did not wrote how I personally think Polish policy should look like, just describe current events )
Borrka 37 | 593  
3 May 2008 /  #1314
"out of proportion ?"

With all respect to the victims we are speaking about some 100 - 150 thousands killed by UPA and probable 10 times more murdered, starved out, tortured to the death by Russians.

But it's not all.
Today, support for UPA (UNA/UNSO) rather does not exceed 1% in the polls.
On the contrary, Russian president who was a prominent member of the KGB enjoys 60 - 80% support..
southern 73 | 7071  
3 May 2008 /  #1315
If so, they can pay compensation to Polish citizens robbed by Soviet policy.

?Poles were considered to be winners in the war.You should ask for compensations by the defeated forces.Did Americans or Britsih pay compensations to French for the bombardment of France during Normandy operations or between 1940-1944?Did they pay compensations to Italy which was another winner?This the war.Defeated pay compensations to winners.Ask Germans to pay you for the destruction of Warsaw.

How does Volhynia slaughter make any excuse to Russian criminals ?

Because the russian criminals slaughetered the butchers of UPA in Volhynia.Till now the tension is between red army soldiers and UPA soldiers.They hit each other when they meet.(The West waits for the rest of them to die in order some progress to be made).
Borrka 37 | 593  
3 May 2008 /  #1316
What's your point ?
Russians slaughetered Polish partisans as well.
lesser 4 | 1311  
3 May 2008 /  #1317
The Germans are another problem not related to this case. If Soviets caused harm to Polish citizens then the latter should be compensated. Americans freed France and thus eventual compensations for incidental damage was pushed to French government. Soviet harm was intentional, this is simple criminal case.
Sasha 2 | 1083  
3 May 2008 /  #1318
They simply never raise the question of UPA crimes and often raise the question of Soviet crimes.

Who's right then? Celinski said above that question had been raised up already.
In case you're right lesser it's even worse I believe. Because this makes new questions emerge. WHO has perished Poles in Volhynia?

and the answer in the lack of information will be like that:

How does Volhynia slaughter make any excuse to Russian criminals ?

At that point I would call them "Russian"... the ones who perfomed that crimes were russian-spoken only...

Today, support for UPA (UNA/UNSO) rather does not exceed 1% in the polls.

Where did you get these fugures and have you been to Ukraine? They look good only for Eastern Ukraine, if you mean Western Ukraine or Ukraine on the whole those figures are out of place. BTW didn't you know that current ukranian president openly encouraged UPA's veteran's because "they have always fought for "nezalezhnost" (independence) of Velika Ukraina"?
southern 73 | 7071  
3 May 2008 /  #1319
that current ukranian president openly encouraged UPA's veteran's because "they have always fought for "nezalezhnost" (independence) of Velika Ukraina"?

They gave them pensions for their patriotic attitude during the war.Former red army soldiers who are also given pensions were outraged and the two groups collided violently in Kiev.

Bandera is very popular in western Ukraine.Many streets in Lvov are called Bandera street.
janekb - | 57  
3 May 2008 /  #1320
Dear Oscypek:
"Your post shows a great deal of ignorance. Have you ever been to the US?"
Yes, I been to the US several times. Beautiful country, a lots of empty spaces, friendly (a bit simplistic), very hard working population. If you live there, you should notice that I gave the US population more credit that it deserves. Most Americans do not know where Russia is and know that Poland is a part of Russia. Ask any of your American friends and you would be surprised.

Good question for well educated Americans is where the following quote comes from: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need(s)", most will answer American Constitution.

Archives - 2005-2009 / History / Poland-Russia: never-ending story?Archived