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Poland-Russia: never-ending story?


Henry R - | 18  
16 Feb 2008 /  #1,231
Southern, could you please tell me what wrong are freaky Russians doing trying to control their natural resourses? Why do western countries, mainly the U.S. and Britain, have developed a habit of thinking that commanding and prejudiced tone is appropriate with nations to access their possessions or to meddle in their internal affairs? Yes, Russia is not a democracy. Not yet. That'll take some time in a big country as Russia especially to change the mentality. But it will never go to its previous Stalinist state. That's for sure. And why don't you give Russia a break? So far, none of you has shown good intentions towards Russia. Some of you have said:"What good has Russia done to the world?". Well, I am not going to answer that, but let me pose the same question with the subject and the object reversed. Since the dawn of its existence, more than a thousand years now, who hasn't tried to invade Russia, subdue its people, and claim its land? You name it! Ever since we are forced to live a militarized life, always on the lookout for the next invasion. Nowadays, it's the U.S. who wants a piece of us. As I said, we haven't seen any good intentions from you, "benefactors". Could anyone tell me, why even after the demise of the Soviet Union in the 1990 the U.S. kept evading ratification of some key treaties unilaterally, spending ever-increasing amounts of bucks on the military development, deployment of forces here and there, advancing NATO eastward, closer to Russian borders, recently culminating that with a defense shield project? Who is cheating now?

As for Poles, nobody said that Russia has problems with Poland being part of the E.C., developing good trade relationships, or simply being friends with U.S. or any country else. And that's propostrous to say that Russia envies or is jealous of Poland because of that. As a matter of fact, Russia couldn't care less for that. I can assert with ease that we Russians have never wanted to be like Poles or be in their shoes when it comes to playing political roles. But when a country, be it Zimbabwe, Poland, Vatican, or otherwise shows clear signs of hostility such as the missile shield issue which is obviously directed against us, then yes, we have a very big problem with that, and we are going to react accordingly. That's natural; you cannot blame us for that. Now, I am stating this in simplest terms. Any questions?

So much said and even more unsaid.
matthias 3 | 429  
17 Feb 2008 /  #1,232
Controlling your resources is different then using your resources to control others and that's clearly what Russia is doing..

Give Russia a break, they are getting a break..... that anybody is even dealing with them is generous enough...

Poor Russia being invaded, are you serious.... majority of times Russia has been doing the invading... and not only invading but the slaughtering.... Russia has mostly if not always been the aggressor in its history and not the victim...

why has Nato been expanding?? hmmm could it be that Russia is not trustworthy... what has Russia to fear, Nato would never attack Russia first... Nato is an organization for defence not attack...same goes for the shield. what now are you denying countries the right to build their defences.

you don't see the US or Poland complaining that Russia is building anti missle systems.. why? actually better question is why is Russia complaning?

hostility? you must not know the definition of that word.... what's hostile saying your going to build a system just in case missles are shot at you or were going to aim our nuclear missles at you...

good try, trying to pass off Russia as a victim...however its clear Russia is sour about losing the Cold war and is trying to regain their status as a superpower.... good luck, its never going to happen..
Foreigner4 12 | 1,768  
17 Feb 2008 /  #1,233
Well, I am not going to answer that, but let me pose the same question with the subject and the object reversed.

good question Harry, i am constantly amazed at the self-loving patriots from all over that are always able to accuse but never turn an introspective eye towards their own countries.
matthias 3 | 429  
17 Feb 2008 /  #1,234
foreignor,

why don't you try listening to your own advice...practice what you preach...

as I recall I don't remember any other country orchestrating a cyber attack, threatening countries with nukes, using oil to control countries, poisoning its former agents on another countries soil.. etc.... shall I continue?

Silly Russians Trix are for Kids....
Foreigner4 12 | 1,768  
17 Feb 2008 /  #1,235
as I recall I don't remember any other country orchestrating a cyber attack, threatening countries with nukes, using oil to control countries, poisoning its former agents on another countries soil.. etc.... shall I continue?

please don't as your incessantly craptastic retorts are by and large unread, i.e. i stopped reading most of your half-witted replies loooong ago. No one is claiming Russia to be an angel and i most certainly can't ethically support the activities you've mentioned but on this issue Harry brought up a valid point which you have avoided and stayed true to the descripton i proffered above your latest garbage.

Enjoy your Trix kiddo.
Henry R - | 18  
17 Feb 2008 /  #1,236
First, we are not asking from anyone to deal with us.

Second, I am not trying to dispose of Russian guilt towards Poland. Yes, in the general context of history Russia has commited crimes and should apologize for them. I can understand your saying that most of the times Russia has been on the offensive, because it is true, only from your perspective: Russia has taken part in most of the partitionings of Poland. I must admit Russia has gone off the far end with Poles, that shouldn't have happened. But after what? Who was aggressive enough to start up a fight first? Take a guess. Or was it that poor, peacefull Poles aimlessly wandering in the woods in 1600s, got lost in the process, all of a sudden found themselves near the walls of old Moscow, asked the Russians for directions back to Poland, but the stupid Russians refused to cooperate, so ended up being slaughtered and their homes robbed and burned down? Huh? Or is it not mentioned in your history books? We know you people. We know your "Wojska Polska" very well. Was it Pan Kazimir in the lead? Poles had slaughtered enough of us to designate them as occupants and enemies that should be treated as such ever since. Too bad, we ignorant, uncivilized peasants/barbarians didn't understand your noble ideas of building an expanded Poland from sea to sea from north to south and extending to the far reaches of Siberia in the east, practically the whole of Russia. Of course, the tsar has been to be replaced with his Polish counterpart, the Pan or whatever. Now we would be so gullible as not to call this an attempt to occupy Russia, provided you haven't lost the battle and were driven off? Or such Polish ambitious plans are not in your books? You just can't forgive yourselves that failure, for it all was so feasible, and nowadays Russia, as we know it, would have been Poland as we will not know it, because it will never going to happen, Matthias, not even with the U.S. on your side, not even in your wildest dreams. All what is left for Poland to do, is to take revenge through helping others to render Russia weak and helpless. Well, if that has become the purpose of your existence, then good luck with that. You may succeed to some extent but will ultimately fail. Take your sweet revenge while you can, because, contrary to your belief, Russia, be it not in near future, WILL BE A SUPERPOWER whether you or your masters like it or not. Not such impediments that we've overcome. Seen worse days. So thanks for your luck.

Third, if you look at Russian history more closely, you will find out that most of the time Russians were defending their own homeland from invasions posed by (not in chronological order) the Germans (the German tribes or whatever they were called), the Polish intervention, the Tatars and Mongols, the Swedes, the Turks, the British incursion, the French, the Germans again, the Japanese, and the Chinese. Did I leave someone out? And now the Americans are drooling over us. Ain't gonna happen.

Fourth, I think I can sleep well now and have sweet dreams, for I am sure to know that NATO/U.S. is trustworthy and will never attack first like it didn't threaten througout the Cold War period to attack us, like it didn't attack first Korea, Vietnam, Iraq in the First Gulf War, Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq for the alleged weapons of mass destruction, and now possibly Iran? How could I think that NATO/US could not be trusted? Whatever is wrong with me? Thank you, that was insightful. Now I know. NATO=Defense!

Last, I do not think that the U.S. will install the missiles and just smile at them. They are trying their best for these missiles to serve their intented purpose, and this is only the first step to their defense shield. They will install other components in other places if haven't already done so. It is obvious, they are preparing for a possible war with Russia. Nuclear deterrance, ever heard of it? Once they are certain that their shield is capable of shooting down all and that nothing escapes, they'll strike. Maybe not now, maybe after 20, 50, 100 years, but this will happen if we don't wake up and do something about it.
paczka 1 | 63  
17 Feb 2008 /  #1,237
Poor Russia being invaded, are you serious.... majority of times Russia has been doing the invading... and not only invading but the slaughtering.... Russia has mostly if not always been the aggressor in its history and not the victim...

Of course!!! Russia invaved Lithuanians back in 1200-ies, Monglia around the same time, Poland in 1612, Sweden in 1690-ies, French in 1812, Turks in 1860-ies, Japan in 1905, German again in 1916 and 1945, Chekosclovakia in 1918...

as I recall I don't remember any other country orchestrating a cyber attack, threatening countries with nukes, using oil to control countries, poisoning its former agents on another countries soil.. etc.... shall I continue?

Other coutries dont threat others... They just DO it, yes?
Henry R - | 18  
17 Feb 2008 /  #1,238
Yes, a long queue of freeloaders, so that I totally forgot about the Czechs. Spasibo 4to napomnili, paczka. A pro Litovtsev, pr9mo taki i ne znal, ili beznadejno zabyl.
southern 75 | 7,096  
17 Feb 2008 /  #1,239
And Americans in 1918-1919.
matthias 3 | 429  
17 Feb 2008 /  #1,240
After all paszka said, don't ask to give Russia a break, it must earn it and show its willing to work with the international community to solve problems and not create them...

Poles occupied Russia 400 years ago, Russia occupied Poland and all of eastern Europe 25 years ago, theirs is a difference..... Poland hasn't been a threat to Russia for 400 years and still Russia feels the need to be the agressor...

Please feel free to tell me the mistakes Poland has committed in the last 20 years.. I have tons for Russia....

You seem to agree that Russia made mistakes and so what....... nothing is being done to change that from happening again....

Russia is no where near its status as in the Cold war.. if you can accept your declined status then we can all move on....

Btw no one denies what mistakes Russia has made under Putin, yet he enjoys huge support..... obviously Russia is not sorry for its behavior so don't play it off like you are...

also America is preparing itself in case Russia decides to attack... America would never attack Russia first.... not so sure about Russia.... their acting very childish lately...
paczka 1 | 63  
17 Feb 2008 /  #1,241
Poles occupied Russia 400 years ago, Russia occupied Poland and all of eastern Europe 25 years ago, theirs is a difference..... Poland hasn't been a threat to Russia for 400 years and still Russia feels the need to be the agressor...

Please feel free to tell me the mistakes Poland has committed in the last 20 years.. I have tons for Russia....

Personally, I dont see any difference between 400 and 25 years old issues. They look damn same to me! Polish just try to forget about the old tensions, because if Russia starts to demand compansation and exuses for everything been done to it, majority of invaders will be deep in debts.

And I dont really see any major mistake done by either Russia or Poland. Some inner mistakes - maybe, but no global ones.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161  
17 Feb 2008 /  #1,242
Of course!!! Russia invaved Lithuanians back in 1200-ies, Monglia around the same time, Poland in 1612, Sweden in 1690-ies, French in 1812, Turks in 1860-ies, Japan in 1905, German again in 1916 and 1945, Chekosclovakia in 1918...

Bad Russia, bad...
EbonyandBathory 5 | 249  
17 Feb 2008 /  #1,243
Poland and Russia will always share animosity. It has been this way for thousands of years. It is the nature of the two countries. Poland's simple desire to control its own destiny and Russia's simple desire to expand and grow. When Poland was stronger than Russia (Muscovy) it was Poland's complacency and Russia's ambition that turned the tides. Russia will always want more. There is nothing particularly wrong with that, but when you own a prime piece of real estate the way Poland does, she should be prepared to rub elbows with her eastern neighbor.
matthias 3 | 429  
17 Feb 2008 /  #1,244
Paszka You don't see the difference.... lol I can see a difference of 375 years.... by the way Polands invasion of Russia saved you from Ivan the terrible... Where's the thank you.

Poland is not the only country in Europe who has problems with Russia... I can name dozens..

No major mistakes by Poland, however I can name major mistakes by Russia..which I already did....
Henry R - | 18  
17 Feb 2008 /  #1,245
Poland and Russia will always share animosity. It has been this way for thousands of years.

Thousands of years??!! lol.

Russia will always want more. There is nothing particularly wrong with that...

I and more than half of this globe know a very particular nation who always wants more, who can never get enough, and this being so, there is something abnormal about that.

Russia will always want more. There is nothing particularly wrong with that, but when you own a prime piece of real estate the way Poland does, she should be prepared to rub elbows with her eastern neighbor.

A typical way of fueling hostility among nations to realize one's own goals and interests. Way to go!

What should Russia do to show that it is not seeking confrontation or occupation and yet is capable of defending itself?
Lukasz 49 | 1,746  
18 Feb 2008 /  #1,246
Europe must speak with one voice to Russia
Financial Times, 18.02.2008

ft.onet.pl/0,6252,europe_must_speak_with_one_voice_to_russia,artykul_ft.html

Russia is the largest and one of the most important of the European Union’s neighbours. The challenge is for the EU to work out a common policy on how to handle its neighbour – and to implement it consistently. The new Lisbon treaty speaks of the EU’s responsibility to maintain the cohesion of its external operations, but only within the scope of the community’s responsibility.

The faster all EU countries understand that a common voice in the EU’s foreign policy is important, the better the relations of respective member states and the EU as a whole with our largest eastern neighbour will be.

Ozi Dan 26 | 569  
18 Feb 2008 /  #1,247
Henry, you're a scary man. Your grasp of history is, with respect, pretty weak.

The key element that you forget to mention in your critique of Poland's purported territorial grab of Muscovite land is, notwithstanding it's a myth, that Muscovy was at that stage a backwater and the land you lump in as being Russian was far from it.

Your allusion to the Polish occupation of the Kremlin as precipitating Russia's need to defend itself is just silly. YOu forget Muscovy's desires and incursions on Polish territory, to which culminated in Poland merely teaching Muscovy a lesson. The only thing Poland did that was wrong was not bringing Muscovy fully to heel.

I'll go out on a limb here and say the world would be a lot better place if it was Poland that secured hegemony over the area rather than Muscovy - think about that.
ConstantineK 26 | 1,259  
18 Feb 2008 /  #1,248
Your allusion to the Polish occupation of the Kremlin as precipitating Russia's need to defend itself is just silly. YOu forget Muscovy's desires and incursions on Polish territory, to which culminated in Poland merely teaching Muscovy a lesson. The only thing Poland did that was wrong was not bringing Muscovy fully to heel.

It's amazing!!! Poles always feel so proud about this campaign in 1612, actually campaign in which they had suffered total repulse!!! Just imagine, brave polish troops were defeated by a militia consisted of peasants, cossacs and shop-keepers!!! Russia in this moment hadn't even a slight forms of regular army or even cavallry, which Poland had! Which lesson did you mean?

Uhh, I forgot another source of Polish pride, "miracle on Visla". Sure it was a real miracle. Another pattern when brave polish army hardly defended itself from the same peasant Read Army, and only with aid of western ally. Is it a proud? Think not so!
isthatu 3 | 1,164  
18 Feb 2008 /  #1,249
the British incursion, the French,

Yes,invited in by the whites to fight the reds.....learn some history mate,and stop with the self pity,gawd,anyone would think you were Polish ;)
celinski 31 | 1,258  
18 Feb 2008 /  #1,250
Now we see peasants. lol I see military uniforms on both sides, and by the way where is this "west" ally you see?

Ammends to be made.



The Communist Party has not withdrawn a resolution it adopted at its
2005 convention, which describes Putin's "Bonapartist, bureaucratic
regime" as being "hostile to the people." Nevertheless, in private
the president, who has reintroduced the Soviet national anthem, is on
first-name terms with the head of the Communist Party.

spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,536060,00.html
isthatu 3 | 1,164  
18 Feb 2008 /  #1,251
who has reintroduced the Soviet national anthem

With completly new words,so,moot point.
celinski 31 | 1,258  
18 Feb 2008 /  #1,252
gawd,anyone would think you were Polish ;)

Guess we can't all be perfect like the British snobs. lol
isthatu 3 | 1,164  
18 Feb 2008 /  #1,253
Well,we did win the lottery of life I suppose ;)
paczka 1 | 63  
18 Feb 2008 /  #1,254
by the way Polands invasion of Russia saved you from Ivan the terrible...

Everyone except Russians call him terrible, when in fact he was one of the greatest tsars in russian history.
matthias 3 | 429  
18 Feb 2008 /  #1,255
Why am I not surprised...

Anyways its irrelevant, post 1123 answers your conclusion that Poland was the aggressor in the 1600s
EbonyandBathory 5 | 249  
18 Feb 2008 /  #1,256
Henry wrote: What should Russia do to show that it is not seeking confrontation or occupation and yet is capable of defending itself?

Everyone knows Russia is capable of defending itself. No one questions that. The problem is that Russia does seek confrontation or makes confrontation out of thin air when no threats have been lobbed it's way. You alluded to Russia being like America in this way and you are exactly right. America recently (last 35) pretends like it must be the world's policeman and that every slight is a threat to its security, and it is one of the reasons the USA has suffered in World popularity lately. America has too often stuck it's big nose in other peoples business. But Russia has ALWAYS been this way. Making up threats that aren't there.
JuliePotocka 5 | 188  
18 Feb 2008 /  #1,257
Actually, America has continued its policy - not begun. And, it isn't of public consent in the states, to start a war over nothing but ghosts and shadows. Just the bureaucrats, who thought they could manipulate the situation.

But then, I feel America and the othes abandoned Poland to Russia, so I suppose what I say doesn't matter.
Henry R - | 18  
18 Feb 2008 /  #1,258
That is atrocious, monstrous, despicable, shameful, and deeply regretful. I can not take any pride in that. Not that I can see or know about. Nonetheless, I mentioned that Russia's guilt towards Poland is evident, to an extent for the suppresions that took place with the partitions of Poland in 1772, 1793, 1795, and 1832, and to a greatly larger extent for the Katyn' in 1939-1940. Russia must apologize for that atrocity – officially.
JuliePotocka 5 | 188  
18 Feb 2008 /  #1,259
I concur with Henry. Only then, can the healing officially begin.
ConstantineK 26 | 1,259  
19 Feb 2008 /  #1,260
uniforms on both sides

Uniform means nothing. They were not on the parad. Main thing is military education, which Red Army was devoided in cotrast to Polish Army which consisted of expirienced wariors, not peasant as in RA

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