Poland-Russia: never-ending story?

re: N Davies [...] is English

- Actually, he is Welsh.

re: but we just want people to read neutral writter. Not German, not Russian, not Polish

- Well, I don't mind 'people' reading Polish historians.

re: Ask ukrainians what do they prefer, EU or union with Russia

- Actually, they seem to prefer 'union with Russia.' And that's very good - like creatures should stick together. Don't forget that at least half Ukraine's population are Russians.

re: All attempts of Poland to present yourself as bridge between Europe and Russia are ridiculous

- So Poland has ever made such attempts? What attempts, when?

Aren't you laughing at your own lame joke?

Ah, so that's what the KGB media talk into the Russkies - that those Polish nobodies dare to aspire to be the bridge between the Holy Matushka and Europe? And as your example shows the result is the Russkies puffing themselves up with hubris and contempt for the 'Palyaki,' right?

:))))))))))

re: Aa I wrote, this work[ Norman Davies's 'God's Playground. A history of Poland' - P.] represents only one, Polish point of view

- And what specifically do you mean by that? Give pertinent quotes. Do you mean that Davies lies? Prove it.

re: As I wrote he [Norman Davies - P.] has wife of polish origine!!!

- And what would this signify? Do you suggest that Davies lies in his books because his wife is Polish? Prove it.
:)

re: At present Russian nation has much higher education level than in poland, due to russian revolution.

- And how do you know that you Russians have allegedly 'much higher educaton level than in Poland'? From your KGB press?

So that's how the KGB tries to justify your 'revolution' - by repeating that the revolution gave the Russians superior education? :)

Hmmmm, did you know, for example, that Russians read Latin American literature in Polish translations, because translating it into Russian was forbidden in the USSR?

Actually, in spite of your supreme Soviet education, you seem to be incredibly ignorant, Konstantin.

But then again we Poles know what the Soviet education was really like, how mentally isolated it made sure to keep you.

actualy they prefere to join west, acording current focus.
what is more they are very postively attituded to Poles ... according to the same focus, and my travels (Lwow is grate)


You know, you are quite simillar to ConstantineK ... or even worst ... ehhh no comment.

I think that people like you exist in every country, and you need each other, you know Ortodox jews needs radical Hamas, ConstantineK needs Puzzer. You need each other to prove your silly theories of the world.

re: actualy they prefere to join west, acording current focus [sic]

- Really? Facts seem to show they have a quite positive attitude towards Germany, which dates back to Nazi times. And, if I know politics, Germans may likely reward them for that, e.g. by accepting them into the EU.

re: what is more they are very postively attituded to Poles

- Really? How? By building UPA memorials, desecrating our cementaries?

re: ... according to the same focus, and my travels (Lwow is grate) [sic]

- I understand that the 'focus' doesn't mention the aforementioned things, and in your travels your own 'focus' was rather selective?

re: You know, you are quite simillar to ConstantineK ... or even worst ... ehhh no comment.

- Please prove I'm 'simillar' to Konstantin, or even worse. Can you?

re: I think that people like you exist in every country, and you need each other [...] ConstantineK needs Puzzer. You need each other to prove your silly theories of the world.

- What do you mean by 'people like you'? Why would you think I need Konstantin? Because I comment on his posts? You do exactly the same. Does it follow you need him and are one of the 'people like you'? So you assert I have some 'silly theories of the world'? Please enlighten me in this matter. What theories? Why would they be silly?

Hmmm, I wonder if you aren't one of the 'Poles' with Soviet education? An eager reader of the Gazeta Wyborcza and such?
:)

Which one do you mean ? Revolution of 1905, February Revolution of 1917 or October Revolution of 1917?


All what I want to say just it's not in the tradition of Christianity to blame somebody in all sins. In the past Poland as Russia, did many deeds which surely insulted not only us but firstly your own name.


Where? Which democratic forces? Do you mean Kasparov? Ha! What do you know about him exept that he is grand master? Do you kno that he is cooperating with neo-bolsheviks to overthrow government, thanks god he hasnt real support in russian society. He lives on the Berezovsky's sop, and so he is really contemptible person!


Thanks no!!! drink this bile and poison yourself !!!


First of all, despite that you are Pole, you have one head, two legs and two hands, as me....I think so....


I read his books and I am finding them rather russophobic, it's enough! I cant say that he is a lier, but he represents facts in such way that his perception becomes clear!


God bless you Lukasz, you are very romantic person, but I am more, more cynical ! I think that all nations have same nature exept some small deviations...So noone has superiority as compered to other.

re: I read his books and I am finding them rather russophobic, it's enough!

- Really? Any specific examples of this alleged 'russophobia'?

re: I cant say that he is a lier

- Well, in this case he can only be truth-speaking.

Even a Russian admits that.

So what are you complaining about, Konstantin?

re: Thanks no!!! drink this bile and poison yourself !!!

- What 'bile' and 'poison'? Any specifc examples? Aren't you projecting on the Poles the Russian 'bile and poison' way of depicting Poland?

hey,calm down you guys. Russia paid a big tribute to Poland recently...using POLONIUM to MURDER a BRITISH CITIZEN on the streets of London,mind you,wasnt the guy who set up the fore runner to the nkvd/kgb a Pole?

******grenade thrown,heads down******

You take out of context a part of my phrase! I said that he misinterpreted real facts and cast them in a false color! History is too fine topic, and it is no need to false the facts, you can just manipulate them.

All this guy wants to do is argue..he does it everybody

Great, another one. Life never gets boring.

my life was boring till I met you :)

Just wait. It'll get better :)

Salty.. one day on a shrimp boat would open ur eyes

famous russian warrior

One idiot shooted a film about poor homeless person, another idiot is laughing about it

As to free media:
I didn't notice any freedom restriction on TV since 90-s. That doesn't mean that TV in Russia is free. That means only that it depended upon oligarchy in 90-s and now upon Government. But now Tv materials correspond common public opinion more than in 90-s - nobody in Russia shall deny that.

I'm sure intellectuals all over the world should abandon TV by its man in the street orientation and choose internet.

No killed journalists in Poland? And what about Italy in 70-s? Less than 50 murdered? Are you sure? There were only criminal terrorism and no separatist armed conflicts. Russia has separatists rebels as well as great money traffic.

Truhlei, as insider from Russia, what you can tell us about possible comments (if any media raport?) of Polish politicians in case with Chechnia situation (for example). I mean, what Russians think that Poles think about situation and, how Polish opinion affect (if?) Russian political scene and ordinary people.

BDW brate, what are current situation on Eastern borders of Slavdom?

Unfortunately there is no respectable opposition in Russia today. Russia requires a liberal doctrine such as was in Great Britain in Victorian period or in Poland-Lithuania in 16-17 centuries, i.e. liberal economics and respect toward morals and majestas. Nothing of the sort in today Russian opposition.

That is the reason why while some 30 per cent of Russians are convinced liberals, "liberal" parties can't gain even 5 per cent at elections. They are considered by Russians as LIBERASTS, a term made in similarity with pederasts.

Calls itself a Democracy but live under Communist rule :)

Chechens are divided into different tribes. In 1996 they became independent de-facto as North Cyprus for example. But such tribal separation didn't permit them to create a de-facto state and centralized administration. Chechen authorities were interested in foreigners and mercenary. Besides that in situation of internal disasters an expansion was required. That was the reason why the attempted Daguestan occupation in 1999. They failed because the majority of Daguestan ethnics formed militias to defend their territory.

Russia had an opportunity to return Chechen terrorists to Chechnya and limit in this way its activities but that was before the elections and a complete victory over terrorism was required. That was the reason of the second Chechen war while the isolation of this region could become more profitable.

It should be stated that the man in the street is quite narrow-minded all over the world. It is quite uneasy for authorities to teach him complicated subjects especially when obscurantist communist opposition in situation of great misery of 90-s used primitive slogans about great victories.


The main challenge of Democracy all over the world today is that traditionally democratic states received it as heritage from previous generations and usually don't know the ways to establish it. Other countries can't use the West as adviser. I for example take more about democratic reforms and theory from British? American and Polish-Lithuanian history, and today western governmental and endowments activities in democratic reforms and human rights stimulation all over the world seem to be a real idiotism that contradicts western past.


The main thing Polish society can do for Russian liberals is to organize the translation of Polish History of 7 volumes into Russian as well as some books on history of 16-17 centuries because Polish-Lithuanian history is unknown in Russia and Golden Age is rejected as failed civilization. The translation of Pasek and Rzewuski books is also required.

But it is doubtful, Poles will do that because there is no sign you are going to reabilitate Sarmatism. Bar confederacy, Enlightment and Romantic ideals are still in vogue in Poland today and Sarmatism is a sinonym of obscurantism.

The model of Political nation is very important for Russia today but it is uneasy to promote it in case when even Polish historians describe it as anarchy.


Yes but you need the permission from EU. And what about your future position and reputation within the EU. EU will soon have to look for explanation why its relations not only with Russia but also with Turkish Republic Middle East etc. are deteriorated.

In Russian case the explanation can be already predicted. In 90-s the West had to concentrate its attention in Russia, to establish more controle and spend more force supporting democratic reforms and the growth of new Russian generation. In this case all states between Russia and the West such as Poland or Baltic countries won't be able to demand more economic aid by the reason of impossibility to protest. They could become democratic and pro western even without a special attention to them while Russia required more assistance.

But the West started isolating Russia and concentrated more attention in Poland and Baltic states. Many analysts predicted that could provoke a Weimar Russia but the West didn't pay attention to that ideas.

Turkish people were also offended because they lost their 40-years place in the queue to integrate EU.
Do you have any doubt new generation of western politicians will accuse previous ruling circles in Russia's isolation?
Do you have any doubt the man in the street in the West will believe that Poland and Baltic states are the main reason why relations with the rest of the world are deteriorated?

Well you will live with those who think so.


I don't know if Russian Saltykow-Szczedryn's novel The history of a town (Glupow town) is translated into Polish. If yes, read it. You wiil notice many similarities. That is an self-ironic novel of 19 century about slavs

you've been talking to yourself for over four hours

Russians know how to be really free. But they have always an extensive way: to leave for the North away from bureaucracy or to the South. Each epoch gave new opportunities for freedom and busibess: the fight for fertil lands in the South in 18 century industrialization in 19 century. Mass migration from opressed by kolhoses villages to cities in 20 centiry. As a result the Irish phenomenon. As in Ireland all active people left for USA and there were few people within the country able to resist British dominium. In Russia people didn't usually resist the strong violence. It was more profitable to leave for place less controlled by authorities

omg, lets just leave the past in the past for goodness sake, i can't believe the amount of times i've talked about Poland etc where the other person talks about History, we are in 2007 not 1947. :)

As to challenges in democratic development Russia is in 1850 now


Politkowska was USA citizen. She received American citizenship in 90. Russians don't trust people of the sort. They have an opportunity to emigrate while we will cope with the consequences of their human rights defense activities.

But nobody was interested in her murder. Only possible Chechen rivals. She defended human rights of Chechens but it occurred that all her protagonists were from some tribes and other tribal leaders were indignated.

Poles will soon learn more about Chechen challenges when the number of Chechen refugees grows. Receive them all please and show us wild Russians how they should be treated.


Nobody seems to understand in the whole world what does anti-missile mean and why it should be installed now when Iran is so away from building efficient missiles.

As to memorial in Tallin, its replacement was also condemned by Jewish Simon Wisiental organization.


Take it easy. There is no Imperialist or Communist idea in Russia today. Only money. That is the reason why Poland doesn't attract Russia today.


What are Poles doing in Iraq today? So long away from their home


Such complex exists but only toward the west bank of Oder. This is the similarity between Russians and Poles


Puzzler do you really think your behavior is quite szlachetny if you call muzyk an intellectual only because he has an opposite opinion. That is not the behavior of a szlachcic


I would say that some 20000 ethnic Russians dissappeared in Chechnya between 1991-1994


Such ideas exist in my head as only suspected. I suspect that RP civilization is exemplar.
The point is that Polish historians falsificate Sarmat history. Away from Poland only their opinion on Sarmat state-looser is known.
A good idea to condemn Polonophobic ideas in Russia or Germany while Polish books on Polish history are full of idiotism


You forgot Red fraction of Kalinowski in 1863

I think both anarchism, and especially terrorism are a little older.

Lukasz wrote:
Think that we suolud be quite pride that when other countries in our part of Europe were definitly leaded by absolute rulers, we evaluated form more or less anarchistic country to one of the most liberal systems in all over the world ... The problem was we were to weak to defend it (we were attacked by Russians, Prussians and Austrians)

The best political system was in Poland-Lithuania in 16-17 centuries.
In 18 century Bar confederacy, Enlightenment and later Romanticism destroyed everything.

As far as I know the Constitution was adopted without quorum. A good beginning for a new democracy. When people started to protest Constitution partisans killed two BUSHOPS. A real clone of French revolution


That's the truth. But that refers to 16-17 centuries. In the late RP Bar confederacy arrtempted dethronement. 1791 also was the beginning of dethronement. No differences with France in 1789.

No locality toward even majestic status


The most liberal RP was earlier. Royal power was limited bur King was untouchable and irresponsible. Rokosz was possible only against royal decision not against himself. There were no dethronements.

Bar confederacy and Enlightenment were two violations of RP system, not the progress.


The main threat for today is moral one. The concept of post-Christianity.


To tell you the truth that was the cultural and ethnic Poland except German and Austrian parts.
Other territories in Russian Empire away from Polish kingdom were from Litva. Poles don't recognize them as Polish now. Poland has border treaties with today Belarus Ukraine and Lithuania.

So the rebel of 1830 was absolutely vane. Its participants murdered not only Russians but also their Polish commanders (more realistic).


Lukasz what do you know about Russia? Eastern part of our state is quite developed. It is Japanese partner.


Abramowicz governs Czjukotka not Kamcztka. Very few people live there. No problems in financing of this region


We accept it. The West will cope with you.
The time when Russians thought about superpower is behind. Money is better.


Russians also prefer Ukraine integration into EU. That will make EU more devil.
The point is that Russia is unable to understand why Ukraine has to pay for gas less than Germany, as it was stated by USA and EU in the late 2005


The mass media in Russia say nearly nothing about Poland. Poland is ignored today. Russians think there are more strong and influent states within the EU.


Pizzler first convince Davies copyright owner to permit the scan of his book and its appearance in Internet. Everybody should have an access to such books. That shouldn't be limited by commercial interest

There might be truth to this, Russia is land of vast spaces, if one didnt like the government and its rule there was always space ito migrate. Thats why aboriginal people of Siberia could maintain their way of life, until communist rule I think ?

Puzzler,
You describe situation as if Poland is among wild animals. Well, I could think in the same manner if I were Pole.
The point is that a good Sarmat approach is not to accuse wild animals, not to write the history of damages (if your neighbors are wild animals they won't understand you). The only way is to look for adequate measures. That was the approach common with all szlachta. To cry and condemn is quite a chlop behavior.

Besides that you condemn Lukasz for his ignorance of Polish History. But where can he get a truth? In the books of popular Polish historians. Some of these booka are edited in Russian. A pure Polonophoby. Only romantics since 1791 are heroes. Anarchy in the past.

Puzzler first clean Polish history. The Sarmat period.


Not only space. New activities also. Since 16 century Russians had many possibilities to change profession or business. Each generation new ways opened. No reasons for intensification.

In Finland peasants had to intensify their own land and fishermen their fishing abilities. Some left for USA. The rest had to resist violence in their own land.


Konstantinek seems to read other Norman Davies books.
Puzzles, I shall repeat: Davies main book should be in Internet. Poles should fight for the internet representation of their history.

Puzzler especially for you.
Two books were edited in Russian during last 3 years.
1. The History of Polish People by Wladyslaw Grabenski in Minsk in 2006. That is a nice book written at the beginning of 20-th century. But it is common view.

2. Historia Polski by Michal Tymowski, Jan Kieniewicz, Jerzy Holzer in Moscow in 2004. This book repeats many stereotypes on RP history and strengthens the opinion that Rp was a looser. The book was edited using financial support of The Institute of Book (Programme of translations) from Poland. As it is written in Russian (при финансовой поддкржке Института Книги - Программы переводов). The have the copyright.

Any questions on Polonophoby within neighbouring states?

Truhlei

I think that it is better to writte it in this topic.

So I see you are really inspirated by sarmats and nowadays by Ligue of Polish Families.

I see Bar confederats, sarmatism or LPR (ligue of ... ) as really strong patiots, but they vison of Poland doesnt stick to mine. I really belive they want to make Poland big and strong, but it is wrong way (in my opinion) and our society thinks the same as I think (LPR has support about 2-5 % ) I know the opinions of EU deputy M Giertych (father R Giertych leader of LPR) from the past, in '91 he wanted us to stick to Russia ... no comment.

Our society just wants to live in EU and all arrguments are just about what we contriubute in, or take form EU.

What about XVIII century, I think that at this time the sarmatism didnt meaned the same as in XVI century. In XVIII century our society decided to change our system and it was right because this direction was proprer to make our country stronger, our society more democratic and people more free ...

Sarmatism is the same for politology as Roman Legislature for Judicial science. The difference is that the importance of Roman law is recognized by the world. As to RP politics, it is falsificated.

As to League, that is quite a marginal movement and very unexperienced, romantic. Nobody should vote in favour of such movements if some better parties exist. Parties that also defend moral but in more efficient and realistic way. I don't see such movements.


These are only words. Facts represent quite a different thing.
1. Constitution in 1791 was adopted in ausence of quorum. A good beginning for free society.
2. Two bishops were killed. Who was able to assure the right to life of other people if traditionally intouchable bishops became victims?
3. A democratic society can't admit secret ideologies. Secrets are possible only to defend State security, business in some cases and privacy. No secret ideology. Polish reformist leaders such as Kosciuszko were masons, i.e. recognized closed ideology.

You wrote about the plans to make RP more democratic and people more free. But there was no difference between France in 1789 and RP in 1791.

Look at the list of Catholic Saints. A great percentage are French martyrs of the late 18-th century. Is that the freedom and democracy?


I don't think there are reasons for economic isolation, customs, borders or portectionism in trade.
The point is that new technologies, economic and trade integration aren't the reasons why people should abandon 10 testaments.
Why should Poland forrow post-Christian concept of today EU states. Why shouldn't oter EU countries follow Polish Christians?
Isn't that the main idea of League?

There is huge difference betwen France and Poland this time, In Poland reforms came form nobels, our nobels decided to resign from some laws, and give more freedom from society. So in Poland the most powerful part of society took iniciative to reform our country. What is more nobels were about 10% of society. In France nobels were about 1% of society, and were against reforms ... So when our neighbours decided to stop reforms in Poland nobels and others (even Peasants) decided to defend our country.

Kosciuszko and peasants during up-rise