Poland-Russia: never-ending story?

Yes there were 10 times menos nobels in France than the number of szlachta in RP.
But as to revolutionary process, is was similar in RP and in France.
To make RP strong enough to resist three black eagles meant to spend all resource for army, and have really a terrorist regime and blood rivers because many people could oppose to such militarist regime.

I think it is posible to be good Christian in EU ;)

So you are League partisan

Ehhh, history shows that our reforms were good but just to futurous in this part of Europe ...


I dont consider myself as good christian and definately not as League partisan ;) but I think it is possible in Poland, France, UK, to be good Christian

The reforms in paper were good but even RP as independent state was unable to fulfil them. Constitution of 1791 proclaimed the King as Intouchable and Irresponsable but the majority didn't have the respect even towards majestas status.

The liberties were proclaimed but even clergymen didn't have right to live


As well as to be a Jew in Middle Ages, i.e. to live in Ghetto. Post-Christianity rules everythere and some reservations for Christians.

this constitution was accepted in most of all local parlaments so not only some "strange liberals" supported it ... crushing majority wanted it.


Empty churches in EU it is just a choice of its citizens.

I m realy proud of our 3rd May Constitution, what is realy nice Lithueanians this year started to celebrate it together with us. So they see it as good moment in their history :)

I told you only that Quorum didn't exist in Central Sejm. Imagine that all Powiats adopt smth. now. Will it become a law without Parlament adoption?

As to majority. That means nothing if we discuss Truth, not popularity.
The majority of Frencmen were also revolutionary or semirevolutionary in 1789 as well as many Russians in February 1917. At least they weren't sufficiently loyal. That doesn't mean that revolutionary steps were positive.


Make publicity of drugs openly and sell them without restrictions. Convince everybody by TV some 24 hours daily that drug dreams is the best in the life.

Some 90 per cent of the youth may become drug-dependent.
Convince by TV people that everybody should be racist. You won't recognize the society in only a year.
If adulterium is quolified as normal in each film, wery few people will follow 7 testament.
That is the explication.

So I will repeat, the difference betwen rewolutions you mentioned is that in Poland the crushing majority of privilege part of our society wanted this reforms. Our reforms were seen as revolutionary by our neighbours. But when we look on sytem which we had before, we will see that reforms were logical contiunation, and werent seen in our country as a revolution as in France (from absolute rulers to repubic). We didnt have to change everything ...

In Poland you can listen radio Maryja, watch TV Trwam or read "Nasz Dziennik" as well as you can isten TOK FM, watch TVN, read Gazeta Wyborcza. You can chose your vison of world ;) I dont see the reason to force people listen media which I think are good, and forbid others...

Do you really think all the blood rivers run in France because nobels were against reforms (many voted in favor) or that was the transition from absolutism?

The only measures to defend Polish-Lithuanian independence by revolution could carry to mass repressions and militarist rule

I noticed you make a LOT of spelling mistakes. Why don't you consider using a spell-checker (or Firefox which automatically underlines misspelled words).

Sorry. I'll do that

We had had nobel democracy since XVI century. It is different when you reform old system than you change everything. It is different when society have some traditions and other doesnt have them. Look on Polish transformation in '89 look on democracy in Iraq ... In XVIII century those reforms for our citizens werent revolutionary at all ... We shoudnt compare it to French revolution or to 1917 in Russia. Where society decided to change everything ...

According democracy traditions, I think we can talk about Russia. Do you think it is posible to make your country more democratic ?

In Russia the revolution of February was limited by detronement only. The rest wasn't revolution.
In RP all ideas concerning strong state that could resist three black eagles meant only militarist state and mass repressions.
If RP events were only an evolution, why 2 bishops were murdered?

I m realy glad that first time on this forum I have to prove that our reforms werent liberal experiment made by masons and liberals, but just evolution of our quite democratic system (in XVIII century), normaly I have to fight against other stereothypes ... :)


To be honest nobody knows how would this reforms worked after 10 years. What is sure, It was our choice and our neighbours decided to stop it, because they were scared that their own societes would ask for the same ... so they invaded Poland ...

I'll separate two events: Reforms in RP and Rp partitions. Although Russia, Germany and Austria insisted in preventive antirevolutionary nature of the partitions, nobody can be sure no other reasons couldn't be invented if reforms weren't carried out.

I think we are a little bit of topic ;) and I think I described quite well my point of view (according 3rd May Constitution)

So i want to ask you about current situation in Russia, democracy, posible future of our relationships.

I would try

There is no Slavic Russia without close cooperation with Slavic Poland and there is no Slavic Poland without close cooperation with Slavic Russia. So, complete Slavic world wait to see that Poland and Russia work togather and (!) not only on the behalf of Slavs but all progressive humankind. For good of nature, too.

My brothers (Poles and Russians), you must do all what is in your power to support re-union of Christianity

God, save Slavs!

Today is the most favorable period in Russian history of the last 100 years.
Only imagine that Russia has more gas profits than the former Soviet Union in 70 but without arms race, expensive "friends" all over the world and even some 40 per cent of former Soviet population.

That is not forever but everybody knows that now. People aren't primitive, they have experience of gas price fall.
Now all active Russians try to gain more money and to create economic base for future that may be less favorable. A great attention to infantil education in active families is one of the main signs of this period. Children should get ready to live in hi-tech society. Responsable parents who are short of money by different reasons spend nearly everything for babies' education.

School system is divided now into streams and more active and busy children are separated. There is a real democracy between them. Although their parents are from families with different income, no snobbery exists in advanced streams and schools.

That is the reality for some 15-20 per cent of population. The rest is less developed. There are many lumpens and people that depend upon alcohol.

The main challenge now is to teach 15-20 per cent how to resist and establish control over society.
That is the reason why Sarmat idea as well as Victorian British phenomenon are of great utility.

There are some other problems. But they aren't typical with Russia only.
One of the main challenges is the lack of low-cost. Although it is clear that sandwich-panel cottages for USD 17 000 as well as cars for some USD 2500 are quite possible in case of a worldwide initiative to create them, nothing similar to Ford T, Citroen 2 CV or Levittown exist now in the world. Even Nicolas Negroponte's initiative to create a laptop for USD 100 didn't receive an adecuate support by ruling circles all over the world.

That in not only the challenge of Russia. I think there are many potential low-cost consumers in Poland, Romania or Bulgaria. There are many people even in rich states who don't want to pay for an expensive cottage during some 25 years.

As to democracy, much depends in Russia upon a bipartisan political system but for today the opposition lead by Kasianov or Kasparov is a real zoo, not a respectable force.

Relation with the west:
Russia was isolated from the West Europe in 90. Isolation means invulnerability. Russia doesn't depend upon the EU or the USA. The West doesn't propose any new profitable or at least interesting thing. So the relations may be limited.

Relations with Poland:
Poland is EU member. Poland isn't free in its activities. It is limited by EU subordination.
Poland can elaborate new initiatives within the Eu concerning the relations with Russia, but it is not as easy to insist in them as to use right to veto.

As to Polish vetoes, Poles use right to veto in order to stop not significant treaties between Russia and EU that doesn't damage Russian business. It is impossible to make Russia respect Poland in this way.

Russian intellectuals think that in 90 Poland and Baltic states didn't have any choice. They could integrate the West even without any western help if Russia was the object of western attention.

USA and EU chose a different way. They concentrated attention and help in Poland and Baltic states and isolated Russia.

Poland may elaborate some clever initiatives in order to improve EU relations with not Russia only but the whole world as well as to soften world tension.

Today measures are quite obsolete. Mew means are required and Poles are clever enoug to find them.
For example the initiative of international low-cost cottage and vehicle projects. That may permit people all over the world to feel civilization without income increase. Cottages may permit a wide migration tha can prevent many ethnic conflicts without military interference.

but what would NATO then- official world policeman?

Look what happened to Yugoslavia because we had different humanitarian projects inside of non-aligned countries movement. USA/EU/NATO/Germany/Britain/Arabia/Israel... segmented us on many weak Balkan states instead of that what presented Yugoslavia (in any sense).

You know, possible even `elite` of former Soviet Union taken part in bloody dissolution of Yugoslavia because we made many problems to those commies. Of course, our own idiots and economic problems had its part in it but, behind destruction of Yugoslavia are on the first palce foreign interests. Hostile interests, which seek to control resources which are on Slavic soil and key international trade (strategic) routes. Isolation of Russia from warm seas for sure was among priorities.

To underline, having in mind Yugoslav/Serbian example, Poland (any Slavic country) need to be very carefull in manuvering thru European/World politics. Brutal punishment is always an open option.

That's right, she is.
For example, the production of meat is limited by very strict EU sanitarian standards, and not complying with them results in immediate ban of it on whole internal EU market.

Oh dear, why I brought this digression here, I wonder, I wonder :)

What's your problem ? Some countries simply have higher standards.

Some countries have higher leaders than Jaro Koczynski. These leaders know how to provoke Jaro to veto non significant Russia - EU treaties by banning Polish meat import.

A gratuite step because meat is abundant in world market. And East European EU members gain a reputation of scandalists within the EU.

Keep on dreaming, my friend :)
In fact it's exactly the opposite. That is, as long Russia will keep this groundless embargo every anti-russian Polish vetos will be treated in EU maybe not with joy but with full understanding.

Earlier, Polish diplomats often have tied hands, because of the usual accusation of "typical anti-russian Polish diplomacy". But now even the biggest rusophiles have to keep their mouth shut, and, hey - thats really nice! :)

So I'd say: please Mr. Putin, just keep this embargo longer, much longer... while in the meantime more and more people and countries will understand that Russia is not trustworthy partner to do any business.

Everybody already knows that. But what can the West do with Russia? As to Poland... Well, can do everything.

I didn't write Russia has a good reputation. I wrote only that Russia doesn't depend upon its reputation in such grade as Poland

truhlei

So maybe your government should start thinking about business. I think we should find some solutions which would satisfy two sides, for example you stop using trade embargo sa a tool to ingerate inside the EU, and we just give you do business in better atmosphere... It would be quite good for both sides.

I m sure that we can do it in calm way without fireworks ... But there is question if Russia want do do it ...

My opinion is that benefits Russia requires can be given only by EU in general. The main is the right to travel without visa. But as for today it is impossible to reach even Kaliningrad by car without visa. Smth worse than West Berlin status before 1989.

For that benefit many problems can be solved

So you should put this proposal on the table. I m sure Poland would support you in this case. All in all open borhers are better for both sides, trade turists ... our region near Kaliningrad is poor, so it should made chances for both sides, and we understand it. We just right now support Ukrainians and Bielarusians in fight for cheaper visas to EU (we join schengen and other Europeans wants them to pay for it) or even for western parts of those countries there will be no visas... honestly in this case we can make good deal.

I think that Poland support is quite inportant in this case, we have arleady negotiated cheaper visas for Ukrainians, and there will be no visas for Ukrainians and Belarusians who live 50 km from borther (we want to give them more but we still negotiate), so in this issue Poland can give you smoething, (kaininigrad is closer than 50 km from our borther) so citizens of this town could travel throught EU without visas ...

You should react now, because we negociate only to 1st December, at the begining of 2008 there will be no borhers with our EU neigbours, so negotiations have to be closed to this time ...

This proposal is always on the table. And Poland was never the initiator of visa regime as well as Bulgaria, Romania, Cyprus or Slovakia. But it is nor sufficient for EU.

Please pay attention to my low-cost post

Yes but we just right now join schengen, to this moment Ukrainians had visas to our country for free, now old Europe wants to close borthers but we have already negociated something ... It is very important to knock the right door in right time ... We dont see any difference betwen Ukrainians living 50 km form our borther and Russians living 50 km form our borther ... Later you will have to negotiate special agrement with EU, and you will pay much more for it. But it is your choice ...

Money doesn't interest Russians who go abroad (if it is between some 10-30 euro. The main challenge is that a Russian has right to travel without any permission as we travel to Turkish state, Syria, Egypt and soon to Israel.

As to 50 km... Each West European could go to West Berlin through GDR territory, not only those who lived some 50 km from GDR border.

There is the rule: EU opened - Russia dependent.
EU closed - Russia independent.
Why should I pay attention to the opinion of states that give me permition to visit them if there are lots of states I can travel without visa and that don't express their opinion on Russian policy?