What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today

Well thinking about Poland slavism isn't much of a thing. to be Polish is much more important then to be slavish think of a Russian for example.

Just becaouse somebody speaks a language similar to another DOESN'T MEAN that they have to have any further connection with each other!!!

A brother doesn't have to talk the same language to be an other fellas brother!
More of the same ideas (brotherhood?) some languages allmost forces one to think specificlly but still can choose something else!

Just becaouse Czechs and Poles seem to have similar language doesn't mean they have to love each other!!! If it was so then it wouldn't been any conflicts among native speakers!!!

One has stance others have a different stance across everything!
If everything was blank white and everything started from the beginning and everyone had the same language it would still be conflicts and dividing. Also new languages would errupt!

While looking at historical friendship and so on is an other matter.

Really? I'm not so sure....do you have a source?
Mine says: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_Europe


....and can you count Russia in on your side?

Sorry but no, Polish constitution was a direct reason behind such swift invasion, a country bordering three absolute monarchies suddenly comes up with a democratic constitution that stands against everything a lone tyrant represents.

Poland had to go because it got weak but it had to go quickly because it was becoming democratic, Europe was definitely not ready for Poland.


Everything depends on how you approach it, you can have national identity without force feeding others with it via armed invasion, to be a patriot doesnt always mean to be a nationalist.


Both Russia and Germany were already dysfunctional nations but thats not the most important issue, the most important issue is that they were absolute monarchies, if you're a king you dont want your subjects getting funny ideas from this country just across the corner.


Without Russia thats about 90 milion, with Russia (just the European part) thats over a quarter of a bilion people.

Yeah...that's what I thought, hence my question...

Numbers do not power make says Israel.

You see Austria, Praussen & Russia as Europe
I like to see GB, France, Germany, Poland, Denmark and Turkey for instance beeing Europe
I can't remember they going into anything against Democracy? (except for GB somehow)

They were representative of European monarchies, France had more luck with its revolution because unlike Poland it had Napoleon, Poland had a weak and cowardly king Stanislaw August.

Paradoxally while France changed a king to an emperor Poland was at the time the only country in the world (outside of US) grasping true democracy.

What is good in having emperor ?
As for true democracy is something of an oxymoron ....


don't provoke me ......

Allmost anything is good about except for Napoleon!
We have the streets numerical today thanks to him ^^

Who?
Its invention of Austria-Hungarian empire.

Vive le roi

As true as it gets then.


In French situation? Everything, royals had him for an upstart peasant but he was more bearable then the rule of the people so France was not pressured as much as it could be and it was able to gather resources to fight more efficiently then if it was democratic.

Well thanks to him all of Europe now a days have it! He spread it!

He done nothing for Poland.
He was like USA government, welcome our soldiers and money but give us ****.
His vision it was an EU under French and his rule - second face of the French revolution.

as for street numbers I could do without them ......

Nope, he did not create the Duchy of Warsaw, he did not allow Poles to live in a free country, he did not restore Polish liberties and freedom.

********.

Now lets say it otherwise, Napoleon was a greedy little fvck and he never did anything for Poland that he didnt see benefit him in turn but he DID do a lot for Poland, saying that a guy who gave us back part of our country did nothing when everyone else wanted us off the map is nuts.


No he was not, USA is prejudiced and abusive against Polish citizens and exploits Poland giving nothing in return, he exploited Poland but he gave us LOTS in return, like a free country to live in.


Would you prefer to be ruled by Germans who wanted to wipe out our culture? Russians who back then were almost as backwards as nowdays? Regardless of his vision he gave us a free country, even if only for few years and even if he didnt do it from the kindness of his heart it was worth it, if only because we could sing our national anthem and teach our kids who they are.

He created Duchy - exactly!
He destroyed Prussia and Austria and then he created Duchy - look at the map(12 years after partition).
If he had created Duchy out of all territories taken by Prussia and Austria we could said that he did something for Poland. As it was he give to Poles under French supervision pitiful spread of land and expected soldiers and money(which he got it).

By the way he was using freely Polish soldiers to safe French as in Santo Domingo for example.

Poles who were dealing with him wasn't at all blinded by him, your view is echo of Romanticism and later generation of Poles which were viewing Napoleon as an idol.


So was he:D


No I would prefer o rule the Germans and that selfish bastard didn't give us opportunity because of prejudice and misjudged calculations.


Russian are not backward - Russians are Russians!

Oh please! Newsflash, Germans, Russians and Austrians decided there wont be any Poland, at all, ever.

And then comes a guy and gives us a chunk of our land back and hope for more and you say he did nothing?




You call that a pitifull spread of land? Thats almost 2/3rd of pre-partition Poland!

He gave us back some of our home when we had none, he gave us freedom and dignity back and asked to fight our opressors for him, yes he did it for himself but saying he did nothing when he did so much is absolute rubbish and a blatant lie.


So you're saying that a guy who said "give me 100k Poles and i'll conquer the world" or "a 100 Poles are worth a 1000 in battle" was prejudiced? What are you some covert Russian communist or was your father in UB propaganda office?


What was misjudged? If he won against Russia and he was close we'd have our country back in time.

If .....?:D maybe ....but he lost.


Neither! I'm Stalin himself .....see even the name is the same :D


He was politician as well, do you care to look for more what he said on different occasions?
Its means exactly nothing!


Duchy in 1807 in 1809 we win with Austria and took some land back.


We made a deal and we paid dire price for it but he fail to deliver, so yes it fair to say that he did nothing for Poland.

You are like a dog grateful for any scrap of attention.:P


2/3 ? look again 1772?


what do you mean?
cryptic:D

Some would approve and some wouldn't as some are pro those countries and some aren't.

I think that approval of others is no needed or seek after ....

Sean notice that the two countries who wouldnt aprove of Polish Commonwealth are Germany and Russia, both of these countries are problem children of Europe and responsible for developing some of the most horrid inhuman ways of life in human history.

If Poland retained its power none of these states would be present in a form or shape that would allow for both world wars or communism, Poland in its golden period (roughly from 1400 to 1640) was an exceptionally tolerant state and and poised to become the seat and centre of European power if she could survive and prosper, by today we might have had an EU that occured naturally rather then through treaties.

As for Russia and Germany? Historically whats good for Russia and Germany is not good for Europe, both of these countries proved largely unable to make succesfull long term political decisions.

Russia more so, Sokrates. What we must remember is that, although rather swiftly disbanded, the CIS was seen by the Russians as their baby. They have never really let go of those Baltic states. As for Ukraine, losing her would be a catastrophe for them but Timoshenko is a co*k-sucker, she'll remain on board with the Russians.

I sure hope you have some photographic or video evidence of this...

I'll apply under the Freedom of Information Act. It's bound to be around somewhere ;)

I assume, Seanus, you have some rights to call Ukrainian state PM in such words. Nothing to say how civilized you are after all. This is just ridiculous. I am not sure if I can report it to Moderator of this forum, but I'll try.

Go ahead and try. We hear about civil war and I see what it does. I'd rather be uncivilised if that's the case. It's about time that the people were heard and politicians stopped ruining lives.

I apologise for the name calling, I don't want to offend Ukrainian nationals who like her. I like and respect your country. I just feel that she is far too opportunistic but feel free to discuss and paint your picture of her. You are Ukrainian so will be better informed than I. Imparting and disseminating info is what the forum is all about.

Nice anthem btw!

He's right though, she knows Russia will damage Ukraine on every level if she gains control of it but she still kisses up to Kremlin simply to get political backing.


No its not she's a c*cksucker allright, we call it as we see it, if you read these boards you'll find us Poles calling domestic politicians worse, and we're usually right too.


Sean many of ths Ukrainians are living 60 years ago so chances are many of them are not as well informed, Orange revolution was not as one sided as it might seem, a large chunk of the nation (though a minority) actually believes partnership with Russia might benefit them.


Untill we get 'em back, then its back Poland uber alles again.

He said of Poland... Not Poland-Lithuania don't mix things. makes you look like an uber nationalist! (wich is really wierd since thoose areas was mostly non Polish speakers even though it was Poles there aswell.

"Poland uber alles again"
Just one word for you: Rota

Rota:)

and 1772 ?
You mix things up.
Care to explain yourself?


Good!

I don't like politicians who curry too much favour by being smarmy but that's the nature of the beast.

It'll be interesting to hear slo's perspective.