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What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today


szczeciniak 4 | 92  
9 Sep 2009 /  #1
abstract : 500 years past and ?
what would europe be like?
what would commonwealth morph into today?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446  
9 Sep 2009 /  #2
That's an itneresting question. I believe the Commonwealth would probably not have survived the Versailles Treaty just as Austro-Hungary didn't. On the other hand, imperial Russia morphed into the USSR including all the tsars' conquests probably becuase of its remoteness from Western Europe's main seats of power.

The constituent parts of the Commonwealth (Lithuanians, Latvians, Belarussians, Urkainians) had begun clamourign for sovereignty and independence already back in the 19th century. The break-up of Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia have also underscored the unlikelhood nad unviability of mutli-ethnic states.

But...in history, culture and poltics most anything is possible, so who knows???? Maybe someday....??
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 10,711  
9 Sep 2009 /  #3
You assume 500 years polish commonwealth would had mattered nothing in the powerstructure of Europe and there would still had WW1 as we know it and subsequently a treaty of Versailles...I don't think so.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
9 Sep 2009 /  #4
I believe the Commonwealth would probably not have survived the Versailles Treaty just as Austro-Hungary didn't.

If the Commonwealth never got into the crisis of 1700-72 it basically means that there would be no Germany, Austria or Russia in the shape and situation that caused WW1.

In fact if we played our cards right back then the whole Europe would be MUCH better off.

Russia would become much more civilized by principle of our influence since our ties with it were stronger and more in depth than their later ties with Western Europe.

Branderburgia would never get our lands, never turn into Prussia and in effect WW1 (and consequently WW2) would never happen.

Versaiiles treaty in which Germans demanded the lands the've taken from Poland in the first place would be perceived as a joke and while Poznań would still be in Poland sadly i'd be living in Germany now (Wrocław).

The constituent parts of the Commonwealth (Lithuanians, Latvians, Belarussians, Urkainians) had begun clamourign for sovereignty and independence already back in the 19th century.

Untill the partitions Poland was an exceptionally succesfull multicultural state (mainly because all cultures barring Jews were European) if someone finally got his brains together and started treating the Ukrainians with dignity, offer them a fair slice of pie no one would ever want to leave.

The only reason our eastern provinces rebelled is because we treated them like sh*t so instrad of a stable frontier we got 200 years of constant mess.

The break-up of Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia have also underscored the unlikelhood nad unviability of mutli-ethnic states.

There would be no Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia in the first place.

All in all Germany not being able to excersize its darker part of nature (and being unified under Austria it might even never sprout imperialistic or nazi tendencies) against a stronger neighbour would be much more enjoyable to live with, no world wars would happen, Russia might even grow up to be a normal country and since powerfull Poland would have a much easier job at putting down communism the revolution was also unlikely.

Napoleon is a bit tricky, he might or might not take over Poland since the guy was an absolute god of war but if the Commonwealth would be succesfull all the way to the 19th century then he wouldnt be able to hold on to it and neighbours wouldnt be able to exploit such a temporary collapse.

All in all Europe would probably be much better off, it might even pull off an EU much easier since Poland was historically much more benevolent a power than Germany, no negative sentiments or historical luggage would be there, Poland was also the earliest democracy so that would have spread.

We, the Europe would be much much better off if Commonwealth never fell, there would be less wars, more cash and less bad memories to block integration, we might even be much closer to an European superstate by now.

But we f*cked ourselves so there, thinking what might have been only gets me bloody depressed.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 10,711  
9 Sep 2009 /  #5
We, the Europe would be much much better off if Commonwealth never fell, there would be less wars,

Now that is your assumption only....why should your construct more peacy then all the other european tries???

If the Commonwealth never got into the crisis of 1700-72 it basically means that there would be no Germany, Austria or Russia in the shape and situation that caused WW1.

Unreasonable assumptions Sokrates.
If there is a reason for the development of national consciousness and fights for independence than it's the feeling of being opressed by foreigners...

Germany's unification was born during the wars of liberation against napoleonic france.
Polish uprising were against prussian Germany and so on.
Why do you think a polish hegemony would keep all the other peoples under their thumb forever???

All in all Germany not being able to excersize its darker part of nature

Oh pleeeaaaaase.....
That is a no way when you really want to go into politics Sokrates, leave your f*ucking mystics out of it!

When you think of Poland as some kind of a "lightbringer" against the russian "barbarians" or the "dark soul" of the Germans you are a nutcase!

Sorry if that is news to you but Poland or Russia or Germany or any other european country are not that different...

The Polish commonwealth would and had their ups and downs as any other regime...and came to an end like any other else too!
Take your blinkers off...
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
9 Sep 2009 /  #6
Now that is your assumption only....why should your construct more peacy then all the other european tries???

Absolutely, there's nothing but assumptions in a thread like that. As for why? We werent really interested in expanding into Germany, despite your claims of German power back then if unified Commonwealth really had any expansionist plans for Germany in 15th-17th century it would act, Poland was interested in seeding its culture in the Eest and untill we started wearing our asses higher than our noses we were quite succesfull.

Russia unified over wars with Sweden and if we assume Poland reformed and stayed strong Sweden will get spanked long before it sees the Russian border so unless Commonwealth initiates a major world war there wont be one.

If there is a reason for the development of national consciousness and fights for independence than it's the feeling of being opressed by foreigners...

Absulutely which is why i said that "if someone got a brain" and offered far reaching autonomy to eastern minorities.

Germany's unification was born during the wars of liberation against napoleonic france.

Nope, German national identity was born then, unification was done by military/diplomatic means by Prussia, while unification would still happen who did it defined its nature, Prussian Germany was a militaristic state bound for conflict, Austrian Germany would be quite different.

For one Austrian Germany would be oriented for expansion in the Balkans and Italy as easier grounds and natural fields of interaction for Austria which would mean an eventuall clash with Poland or France is far less likely.

That is a no way when you really want to go into politics Sokrates, leave your f*ucking mystics out of it!

2 World Wars say i'm right, if you want to get into specifics, raising an entire nation in a militaristic fashion in which its unable to cope with defeat constitutes this darker nature, nothing mystical about it, historical and cultural heritage if you will.

When you think of Poland as some kind of a "lightbringer" against the russian "barbarians"

Newscast to you, Russia is barbaric, the goverment belittles and exploits its own people and they still follow it, we could go on.

The fact is Poland was civilizationally superior to Russia untill the 18th century when it became a craphole of the universe, our interactions with Russia before and after our invasions of it were always much more in depth on the cultural level and we could potentially excert a much greater positive influence over it, especially that it would be our business to have a good neighbour.

Sorry if that is news to you but Poland or Russia or Germany or any other european country are not that different...

Really? Then why did Poland fell and Germany rose to power? Why USA is the superpower while Czech republic is a meaningless little state? Countries and nations are different, their potentians are different which is why their history is different.

The Polish commonwealth would and had their ups and downs as any other regime...and came to an end like any other else too!

Probably yes but the topic assumes it never fell which means we have to rule out several mistakes like opressing Ukrainians or creating a veto institution and given how hugely succesfull it was when it was still well ruled its likely the Commonwealth would transform into some other form of multinational state and thats a step away from an EU.

Today after 300 years since Germany ascended in Europe no one trusts anyone and you literally have to buy countries into EU, thats not a good legacy at all, graduall cultural and economic assimilation would be much better and Poland was much more capable in that aspect (untill we f*cked up that is).

thats a step away from an EU.

A step in the direction of a EU that is.
Mr Grunwald 31 | 2,084  
9 Sep 2009 /  #7
Why do you think a polish hegemony would keep all the other peoples under their thumb forever???

First of all they wanted to get into Poland (Not saying any Poles protested tho)
Read about it! When Kievan Rus fell it asked Polands king to get her lands. Afterall the noblemen of Grand Duchy had more right then the noblemen of the crown...

Only thing that were positive for Poland is that it was culturely dominating...
Also it didn't have any conflict with lithuania wich was very important!
Not until Russia became one it was a big minus.

IFs are allways interessting
When i think about it Napoleon wouldn't enter Poland-Lithuania-Ukraine at that time if that state handled Russia to embargo on GB (reason why he invaded Russia)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
9 Sep 2009 /  #8
When i think about it Napoleon wouldn't enter Poland-Lithuania-Ukraine at that time if that state handled Russia to embargo on GB (reason why he invaded Russia)

Napoleon was a great commander but a pathetic politician, every powerfull state would have to fall and Europe be his, if Poland remained a power into the 19th century he would sooner or later attack it, also embargoing Russia at Napoleons behest would be stupid, antagonizing close neighbours in the interestes of a geographically distant power is never a bright idea.

Not until Russia became one it was a big minus.

Russia was more or less unified in 15th century and it didnt matter, Russia would remain a culturally and economically backwater state if not for Peter the Great and Peters reforms were shaped by Sweden, he was a man hard to defeat but easy to influence, if Poland would remain strong he'd be the ideal reformator of Russia into what benefitted both Russians and us.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 10,711  
9 Sep 2009 /  #9
Newscast to you, Russia is barbaric, the goverment belittles and exploits its own people and they still follow it, we could go on.

Russia isn't "barbaric"...no people is "barbaric", the government sucks more often than not but the people are more or less the same all over the world.

2 World Wars say i'm right,

Well...than you should point your mystics to France, Great Britain and especially Austria also.
Germany started because it wanted to honor it's treaty to Austria....what a "dark thing" to do!
But WWI had absolutely nothing to do with some "dark soul" but with a tough re-shuffle of hard political facts.

The polish commonwealth would had taken part in some re-shuffling too if they had been asked/been in existence...nothing to do with some "soul"-thingy.

And WWII was the continuation of some unfinished business from WW1.

historical and cultural heritage if you will.

Actually you try to point 12 years of madness to heritage of 2000 years...YOU MUST BE KIDDING!

What about the military heritages of exploitations, war and conquests of GB or France or Spain or any other Imperium??? I can't hear you talking about those "dark souls".

I bet if Poland would had bordered France you would talk today about the "dark soul" of the french people because Poland would had suffered not the Germans but the French...

There is no "dark soul"...just power politics and in the case of a successful polish commonwealth you would had shown your "dark soul" to the world too...

To assume otherwise is ridiculous!

I can't take you seriously if you are talking like that Sokrates, sorry! :):):)

Why USA is the superpower while Czech republic is a meaningless little state? Countries and nations are different, their potentians are different which is why their history is different.

It's a bit like a card game...reshuffling - they are given out to all, some get good cards, some get bad - then the poker starts.

Some are more successful than others...but then cards are mixed anew...another round.

The US became a superpower after Europe killed practically itself and took itself out of the game.
Before that it was quite isolationist and not really a number.
Today's Czechia was once a big number in the middle ages...under another name...
Germany has already several ups and downs behind her....so what!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
9 Sep 2009 /  #10
Well...than you should point your mystics to France, Great Britain and especially Austria also.

To a point yes but none of these conflicts were so expensive to European progress as those started by Prussian Germany.

Russia isn't "barbaric"...no people is "barbaric", the government sucks more often than not but the people are more or less the same all over the world.

Singular people yes but people are different when in groups and individually, individually there's not much difference between you and me but as German and as a Pole we carry different customs traditions and outlooks on life.

In Russia you need to add very very low political and social awareness of an average citizen, its not because Russia is Russian but because they chose a certain path of development which would be different and possibly more positive with the Commonwealth still around.

Germany started because it wanted to honor it's treaty to Austria....what a "dark thing" to do!

Thats an excuse not a reason, Germany fought wars because it wanted to grow at the expense of others, there's nothing special about it, Rome did it, US does it, all imperialist countries do it but in Europe where there's so many different people so close together it doesnt work, no matter how strong or wealthy or resourcefull you are if you try to dominate Europe by force of arms you will fail, and you did.

The polish commonwealth would had taken part in some re-shuffling to if they had been asked/been in existence...nothing to do with some "soul"-thingy.

Stop with the soul and mysticism, i'm using historical facts here, Germany wanted an empire and needed stuff it could only get via war, Poland to a certain point in history was getting the same thing in a completely peacefull manner, and people were happy to oblige us too!

After a while we started to turn this cultural sharing into exploitation and thats when the trouble begun.

And WWII was the continuation of some unfinished business from WW1.

To be more specific it was the continuation of the dysfunctional nation Prussia created, people who just couldnt cope with defeat, but with Commonwealth WW1 itself would be unlikely so there would be no WW2 as well.

Actually you try to point 12 years of madness to heritage of 2000 years...YOU MUST BE KIDDING!

12 Years of madness? The madness started with the partitioning of Poland and then just got bigger, people could write off Poland since it was far away and did not influence their lives directly and just let Prussia grow and grow and eventually fail, but like all militaristic states Prussian Germany would go out with a bang.

What about the military heritages of exploitations, war and conquests of GB or France or Spain or any other Imperium??? I can't hear you talking about those "dark souls".

Completely different scenarios, you brought ethnicity and culture to the business in a much greater degree.

I can't take you seriously if you are talking like that Sokrates, sorry! :):):)

You cant take me seriously because you're a German chauvinist and everything that threatens your picture of a proud powerfull Germany you will reject immidiately but nobody is perfect so i'll live with you not threating me seriously :)

The US became a superpower after Europe killed practically itself and took itself out of the game.
Before that it was quite isolationist and not really a number.

And Europe killed itself directly because there was Germany and Russia in a shape they were, if the Commonwealth was there as a strong healthy state neither Germany nor Russia would even enter such a nasty state of affairs since its the absence of Poland that triggered such interactions.

Today's Czechia was once a big number in the middle ages...

But its not anymore, why? We're all the same as nations and states after all :)))

Germany has already several ups and downs behind her....so what!

And you're dying out, afraid of self assertion after what you did in WW2 and slowly declining into a permanent secondary role untill taken over by Turks.

Wait sorry its a temporary setback and you're going to have your "up" again, in 30 years when half of your nation is 50 years old and your border cities are settled by French and Poles.
TheOther 5 | 3,691  
9 Sep 2009 /  #11
Today after 300 years since Germany ascended in Europe no one trusts anyone

And this assumption is based on what? Poland (or Polish politicians, I should say) having a trust problem doesn't mean that everyone else has the same issue.

and you literally have to buy countries into EU

For example? You really believe that the EU couldn't wait for Poland and all the other Eastern Europeans (that was on purpose... <g>) to join?

and your border cities are settled by French and Poles

And the Polish birth rate is what, once again?
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 10,711  
9 Sep 2009 /  #12
To a point yes but none of these conflicts were so expensive to European progress as those started by Prussian Germany.

Prussian Germany was longer best buddy with GB than the other way around.
Prussian Germany helped free Europe from Napoleon, it was Prussians before Vienna too...get a grip on your anti Prussia bias man!

And you're dying out, afraid of self assertion after what you did in WW2 and slowly declining into a permanent secondary role untill taken over by Turks.

Wonder what this "dark soul" will do now....
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
9 Sep 2009 /  #13
And this assumption is based on what? Poland (or Polish politicians, I should say) having a trust problem doesn't mean that everyone else has the same issue.

French-Italian disputes. Brits attempting to retain a "balance" Sweden and nordic countries blocking the pipeline even more than Poland?

For example? You really believe that the EU couldn't wait for Poland and all the other Eastern Europeans (that was on purpose... <g>) to join?

Yep, EU without Eastern Europe wouldnt work on principle of the countries falling into the Russia sphere of influence which creates a whooping pile of transit problems, Germany becoming a friontier, Russia being able to dictate a whole lot more than it is.

Not to mention if Poland didnt join EU it would by now be a complete total US bytch, US has no business in a European superstate so it would invest heavily here which in short term would be good for us,long term it would be bad for Europe.

And the Polish birth rate is what, once again?

Rising again. Our population will decrease by 3-5 milion into 2040s only to rise as of 2008 we're again having a positive birth rate.
efi24.com/info?itemId=76322&id=PL&rob=Dodatni-przyrost-naturalny-w-2008-r.&j=pl

At the same time German situation is absolutely catastrophic, Germany will experience the sharpest drop in population and rise in aged citizens in the whole world.

indexmundi.com/germany/birth_rate.html

More importantly a lions share of births in Germany belongs to the Turkish minority which grows explosively.

At the same time German economy will suffer because of the aging of citizens which allows for less money to buy themselves young immigrants or give financial priveliges to young families which only worsens the problem.

Prussian Germany was longer best buddy with GB than the other way around.

You should know best that no one was buddies with GB when it was a power, ever. There were just people who knew they were its bytch and those who didnt know it.

Prussian Germany helped free Europe from Napoleon, it was Prussians before Vienna too...get a grip on your anti Prussia bias man!

If it wasnt for Russian winter everyone would be French property untill Napo bought it from old age, if you're referring to the Landwehrs and remnants of the Prussian army that fought at Leipzing and waterloo then you were a contributor but by far not the most important or even crucial one.

As for Vienna, you helped yes but if it wasnt for Poles you'd be more toast than a French soldier who starts a war without a white flag.

There's no need for you to mention the wars where Prussians were just an unimportant helper, French-Prussian war and both WWs prove that Prussians created a powerfull war machine and i'm impressed by it, its just that they sucked as a nation.

Whats the point of having an awesome army if you cant handle peace?
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 10,711  
9 Sep 2009 /  #14
Well...it's going down the drain anyhow....with Germany becoming turkish now....so..who cares...

*takes helmet*
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
9 Sep 2009 /  #15
If it makes you better we do, we didnt want Turks for neighbours in 1683 and we dont really want them now, off for a beer i go, cheers:)
TheOther 5 | 3,691  
9 Sep 2009 /  #17
French-Italian disputes. Brits attempting to retain a "balance" Sweden and nordic countries blocking the pipeline even more than Poland

They don't fight wars with each other anymore - big improvement.

Germany becoming a friontier, Russia being able to dictate a whole lot more than it is.

West Germany was a frontier state for a long time after WW2, remember?

the Turkish minority which grows explosively

Poland is part of the EU now. You don't mind if the Germans send you a few million Turkish people over, do you?
Crow 148 | 9,290  
9 Sep 2009 /  #18
what would europe look like with Polish–Lithuanian-ukrainian Commonwealth today

few aspects

1. Yugoslavia would be restored as confederal unit of Commonwealth and this time it would include Bulgaria

2. Germany would be dissoluted

3. Lusatia and complete eastern Germany would be part of Poland

4. Scottland, Wales and Ireland would be considered as part of Slavija and would be part of Commonwealth

5. Hungary would be part of Commonwealth

5. Turkey would be dissoluted

6. Moldova would be region in Ukraine

7. Romania would be dissoluted

8. Austria would be dissoluted

9. Albania would be dissoluted

10. England would be sub-region of Ireland

11. Czeska would be part of Commonwealth

12. Slovakia would be part of Commonwealth

13. Byelorussia would be part of Commonwealth

14. Letonia and Estonia would be part of Commonwealth
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
9 Sep 2009 /  #19
West Germany was a frontier state for a long time after WW2, remember?

Because they had no choice, the moment they could they transferred this role to Poland and if our politicians had some brain they'd do it with Ukraine.

Poland is part of the EU now. You don't mind if the Germans send you a few million Turkish people over, do you?

I mind, a lot. I've been to Germany as a tourist its a beatifull country and you can tell where Turks are living by contrast. If Germans want to do that to themselves its their business i'm not going to have my country become a dump after it actually recovered from being one.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 10,711  
9 Sep 2009 /  #20
If Germans want to do that to themselves its their business i'm not going to have my country become a dump after it actually recovered from being one.

Hey! I so don't want that!!!
Crow 148 | 9,290  
9 Sep 2009 /  #21
its the price of your anti-Slavic alliance with islamists
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 10,711  
9 Sep 2009 /  #22
Say...aren't the Turks also some proto-Slavs???
You take them!
Crow 148 | 9,290  
9 Sep 2009 /  #23
Say...aren't the Turks also some proto-Slavs???

no.

You take them!

no thank you. They are your allays and friends
rock - | 460  
9 Sep 2009 /  #24
Germany is not our friend.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 10,711  
9 Sep 2009 /  #25
Genau!
Turks are deep inside pure Slavs, right? Right!

You are just turki..turkozi...turkoza...turkozized...poor sods...
Mr Grunwald 31 | 2,084  
9 Sep 2009 /  #26
And the Polish birth rate is what, once again?

immigration rate I say :P

Genau!
Turks are deep inside pure Slavs, right? Right!

Didn't you BB say that Poles were Germanized slavs ro something? If that will catch up we will become brothers! (in arms, every Deutsche officier Dream) <--- Or doy uo contradict my statement? (having an bad opinion of Polish troops!)
TheOther 5 | 3,691  
9 Sep 2009 /  #27
Because they had no choice

What I meant is that Germans have the experience to be a front state.

the moment they could they transferred this role to Poland

I told you you are in the EU now... :)

you can tell where Turks are living by contrast

I'm afraid, that's correct in many cases.

i'm not going to have my country become a dump

You have no choice. There are probably millions of muslims who hold an EU passport. They can live and work where they want. Again: welcome to the European Union.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 10,711  
9 Sep 2009 /  #28
There are millions upon millions of muslims who hold a EU passport.

We should really do something about that....
ShawnH 8 | 1,507  
9 Sep 2009 /  #29
Lets start a petition!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346  
9 Sep 2009 /  #30
What I meant is that Germans have the experience to be a front state.

So? You claimed that EU doesnt need Eastern States, i gave you at least two very good reasons, transit and strategic location, there's also economic exchange and potentialy US or Russia becoming their pimp.

I told you you are in the EU now... :)

And that means we're supposed to bend over whenever asked? I know we're not the largest of the wealthiest country in Europe but thank god we're also not the stupidest one.

You have no choice.

What do you mean i have no choice? I'm a citizen i pay taxes, if i want to raise hell i'm entitled to whether i'll be succesfull or not is another matter.

If there's ever open talks about letting in Muslims i'll f*ck political correctness with a rough stick and start an awareness campaign on what a focking dump these people create wherever they go.

They can live and work where they want.

Want a bet? There's enough ways we can procedurally make it hard for them to come here without aggravating other EU countries.

welcome to the European Union.

European Union, give me a German, British or any other European any time, we've had loads of them in the past without problems, i just dont want muslims.

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