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What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today


Ironside 51 | 12,467  
19 Sep 2009 /  #61
Edge of various Russian principalities for example, Lithuania, Poland etc.

Exactly my point!

It could, but the fact that it first appears in a Kievan Chronicle done by a Rusin implies its not.

????
Look above and think:p

There's a point at which you just have to let go, Ukrainians despite all the evil the UPA did are the victims just as much as we're, they're also a strategic country for Poland .

We should worry about our stability not about others ........
This is not only about one town, it is about land.
Anyway I'm not proposing war. Just a clear record what's what's!
Sokrates 8 | 3,345  
19 Sep 2009 /  #62
Anyway I'm not proposing war. Just a clear record what's what's!

Well short of a war the only thing we can (and did) do is to acknowledge Lwów as Ukrainian regardless who's was it in the past.
Ironside 51 | 12,467  
19 Sep 2009 /  #63
Today, as for the future ........
Sokrates 8 | 3,345  
19 Sep 2009 /  #64
And what? Get a city with a huge Ukrainian minority displeased with their situation? What are you going to do with them then? Genocide them all? Did we become Russians or Germans all of a sudden?

Face it, both of us would like to have Lwów back where it belongs which is in Poland but there's no feasible way to get it back that wouldnt bite us in the ass immidiately and generations afterwards.
slo 1 | 52  
19 Sep 2009 /  #65
It originally meant "borderland" or "friontier" its origin is unknown but definitely not Polish

Rather it meant seen in 12-th century's book that local people played with old Ukrainian and Slavic world "kraine" - "country". Makes sense now?

slo:
Just respect sovereignty of Ukraine.

What do you mean?

I mean you are free to claim origin of any name, but not land this name being called :-)

Lwów is not Ukraine is Polish town, and sure as hell we should got it back.

Yes, Ironside, I mean exactly this. I am happy that Polish government obviously does not represent your point of view. It would be a way to nowhere.

Germany tried it, learn from their failiures.

Nothing to add on this clear statement. Again, Poland got a modern government which doesn't mean all people are modern thinking. It is Ok, as soon as majority in Polish elite respect Ukraine Ukrainian ppl to pay back with great respect of Poland.

End of discussion on Ukrainian sovereignty. Out of topic. And out of sense.

We better concentrate on joining "old Polish towns" as Lviv/Lwow, Kyiv/Kijow to EU. Than there wont be borders between such close nations as Polish and Ukrainian and you can work in European Lviv on your historic projects with no work visa.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,116  
19 Sep 2009 /  #66
Well short of a war the only thing we can (and did) do is to acknowledge Lwów as Ukrainian regardless who's was it in the past.

And the sensible thing would be for Poles to do as what Germans did with Wroclaw - buy everything in sight!

Funny thing is, to me, Lwów feels far more Austrian than Polish..
Sokrates 8 | 3,345  
19 Sep 2009 /  #67
And the sensible thing would be for Poles to do as what Germans did with Wroclaw - buy everything in sight!

I'm lost as to what did Germans "buy out" in Wroclaw?

Funny thing is, to me, Lwów feels far more Austrian than Polish..

It was in Austria for about 100 years, it was in Poland for over 400, more than 90% of historical sites in Lwów were built by Poles or under the Polish goverment, much of Polish cultural and civilisational achievement was centered around Lwów.

Saying that Lwów feels Austrian to a Pole would be like telling a German that Berlin feels more Chineese than German. Its hard to find a more Polish city outside of Kraków, Poznań and Warsaw.
slo 1 | 52  
20 Sep 2009 /  #68
Its hard to find a more Polish city outside of Kraków, Poznań and Warsaw.

May be in historical narration my friend, but not in common sense. There is hundreds of stories like that, but we live in real world. And in this real world dealing with real challenges even talking about converting Lviv back to Polish town is destructive and has no future.
Ironside 51 | 12,467  
20 Sep 2009 /  #69
And what? Get a city with a huge Ukrainian minority displeased with their situation? What are you going to do with them then? Genocide them all?

Send them to country which nationality they claim - send them to Ukraine.

Rather it meant seen in 12-th century's book that local people played with old Ukrainian and Slavic world "kraine" - "country". Makes sense now?

Well, if you take an assumption that they played with words in 12th century in book - maybe.
As I said before to find out origin of the name is clearly impossible, and in long run it doesn't matter.

We better concentrate on joining "old Polish towns" as Lviv/Lwow, Kyiv/Kijow to EU.

Nobody claim Kiev or area although many Poles used to live there before1914.
Kijów is Ukrainian town, no doubts about it.

We are talking about Polish lands like Lwów and area which before the WWII belonged to Poland.
I know that Ukraine in 1918 claimed this lands as they own - but had no grunts for such a claim.It was settled between Poland and Ukraine, today's border is made by Stalin, these are borders of Soviet Union and Soviet Poland.

You talk about respect, give as back our land and we are settled.

Ukrainian sovereignty

I'm all for independent Ukraine but I don't want to sacrifice our land for it, is that strange?

Germany tried it, learn from their failiures.

If you say so.
Never the less I don't see connection here.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 11,715  
20 Sep 2009 /  #70
Never the less I don't see connection here.

Na ja....to make things short....we wanted land back we thought which belongs to us (without much of the people there of course) and ended up much smaller than before.

Serbia is a much more recent example..
Why do you think Poland would be any different?

Better help Ukraine finding their feet, then lobby for them for membership, then Poles and Ukrainians can settle/resettle where they want....current borders losing their importance!
Sokrates 8 | 3,345  
20 Sep 2009 /  #71
May be in historical narration my friend

Absolutely, Lwów is a Ukrainian city right now and the vast majority of Poles came to accept it, it is a part of our heritage and history but its your land now.

Send them to country which nationality they claim - send them to Ukraine.

And then what? Our population is shrinking you know, the housing problem will be gone in a few years, if you send 3-5 milion Poles to inhabit that region our economy and infrastructure will suffer country-wide due to not enough hands to work on it.

We are talking about Polish lands like Lwów and area which before the WWII belonged to Poland.

Yes they did, can we get them back without screwing ourselves in long term? No we cant. Besides i daresay bordering only Germany is much better than bordering Russia AND Germany, especially since Germany grew up, Russia did not.

I'm all for independent Ukraine but I don't want to sacrifice our land for it, is that strange?

You want to antagonize possibly the most important Polish ally for a city thats useless to us outside of sentimental value, we are slowly getting richer and more influential, in 10=20 years we'll pull Ukraine into EU and then every Pole who wants can go and live in Lwów without war, expulsions and all the things your reasoning brings.

today's border is made by Stalin

And he wanted reactions like yours, he planned for people like you, reasoning like this is what caused Poland to fall initially and then caused both world wars.

If you say so.
Never the less I don't see connection here.

What BB said, short term gain with a future long term or even permanent loss attached.

Ukraine is important to us, friendly Ukraine. We can establish cordial relations with Germans and the West (in time) but we need true friends (or as close as it comes in diplomacy) poor fractured and hostile Ukraine is not worth getting one city thats not of strategic or economic importance and sentimental value is not enough to f*ck ourselves up for generations to come.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,116  
20 Sep 2009 /  #72
Saying that Lwów feels Austrian to a Pole would be like telling a German that Berlin feels more Chineese than German. Its hard to find a more Polish city outside of Kraków, Poznań and Warsaw.

That's purely from my perspective. For example, Shevchenko Prospekt comes across as being very very Austrian - I don't see the Polish influence at all there. Even the Rynok looks like something straight out of the 'how to design a square by A. Germanic Architect' - it just doesn't feel or look Polish at all. Even the streets around the Opera feel much more Germanic than Polish.

To be honest, Poland should be looking at their own border proceedures before complaining about Lwów being in Ukraine. If they worked to try and bring the formalities down, then that part of Ukraine would open up considerably for Poland - but who wants to visit Ukraine when every single person working for the Polish Customs wants to search absolutely everyone coming back across the border?
slo 1 | 52  
20 Sep 2009 /  #73
Better help Ukraine finding their feet, then lobby for them for membership, then Poles and Ukrainians can settle/resettle where they want....current borders losing their importance!

Bravo Bratwurst Boy!

in 10=20 years we'll pull Ukraine into EU and then every Pole who wants can go and live in Lwów without war, expulsions and all the things your reasoning brings.

Bravo Sokrates!!

That's exactly what I said. If some one is in love to Lviv/Lwow and Polish culture in it is a beautiful feeling. Join Lviv and Ukraine to EU, move there and settle your Polish projects there. Claiming changes of state belonging of this city it is a stupid and destructive way. Sorry for saying that, Ironside. I am just tired of those failures with thousands of victims, refuges, terrorism, etc. I stop discussion here on the subject. It is not only off topic, it is against the topic about our commonwealth.
Seanus 15 | 19,672  
20 Sep 2009 /  #74
Territory changes hands and is often contested. Poles are still very much welcome to cities like Lwów, Wilno and Kowno (Lvov, Vilnius and Kaunas). Commonwealth? Just another label.

The big future issue will be Ukraine's potential future accession to the EU and, perhaps, NATO. If Poland is too instrumental in that process, Russia will have sth to say about it.
Sokrates 8 | 3,345  
20 Sep 2009 /  #75
I don't see the Polish influence at all there

The question is do you know what the Polish architecture is? Because you might look at it and think its German or Austrian.

Even the streets around the Opera feel much more Germanic than Polish.

Opera itself for example is built by Poles, Polish artists and sculptors worked on it, it was designed by a Pole, Zygmunt Gorgolewski.

The towns centre can feel Germanic because it was built almost 700 years ago by Kazimierz wielki (polish king) according to Magdeburgian layout, the gothic town hall has been built by Poles as well.

Some of the examples of Polish architecture in Lwów:

-

As you can see Polish architecture is not one unbroken continous style, especially between 15-17 centuries during Polish golden age several architectonic schools basing on Italian, German, and their Polonised versions were present, as well as Polish baroq and influences by the Eastern architecture but almost all of Lwów historic landmarks(including the town centre, town hall, main railway station and lwów university) were built by Poles.

In fact because Lwów was preserved so well its apart from Kraków and Gdańsk one of the best kept examples of Polish architecture.

The big future issue will be Ukraine's potential future accession to the EU and, perhaps, NATO. If Poland is too instrumental in that process, Russia will have sth to say about it.

Russia will soon enough be limited by its economy, Poland will not so i'd say we can safely excersize what leverage we have in helping Ukraine join the EU.

To be honest, Poland should be looking at their own border proceedures before complaining about Lwów being in Ukraine

No one is complaining, Ironside is the odd egg in the basket really, the vast majority of Poles and the goverment came to accept Lwów as Ukrainian and there's no intention to change it, we have a soft spot and think of it as "our" city because it used to be one of our heartland areas for the better part of a thousand years but it doesnt lead to any kind of revisionism on our part, its Ukrainian now and thats that.
Ironside 51 | 12,467  
20 Sep 2009 /  #76
we wanted land back we thought which belongs to us

Your case is different because the land you wanted was in your state (Prussia ) because of your criminal attempt to destroy ancient Kingdom.
You were not right historical or otherwise to your claim.

and the vast majority of Poles came to accept it,

lambs after Soviet brainwash.

And then what?

Oh! This is a question for other thread or many threads.
Why Polish population is shrinking, why polish industry is discriminated against by "polish" government? And many others! Ask Seanus.

No we cant.

Today. There is always another day:P

daresay bordering only Germany is much better

Doesn't matter who is your neighbour as long as you are stronger.
If you are weak, having border with Monaco wont help you:P

You want to antagonize possibly the most important Polish ally

Please!!!!
That ally is not able to settle its internal issues and after 20 years of independents is divided into three distinctive parts.
They are not able face Wolyn massacre and in Lwów they are making obstacles for Poles , not to say about historic buildings is the town which are close to become ruins.

And what about restoration for owners of land and houses ?
The best ally would have settled those issues long time ago.

And he wanted reactions like yours,

What reaction?
We are discussing not acting!
I never thought I'll say something like that:) but you sound as typical Pole(when it comes to politics at last), for you talking is an action in itself.

Ukraine is important to us, friendly Ukraine.

In politics there only business there no friends.
You are the one deluding yourself about friendly that or this.
Everyone is friendly as long as you don't want anything from them:P

Sorry for saying that,

No problem.

he big future issue will be Ukraine's potential future accession to the EU and, perhaps, NATO. If Poland is too instrumental in that process, Russia will have sth to say about it.

Russia is acting already.
Sokrates 8 | 3,345  
20 Sep 2009 /  #77
Your case is different because the land you wanted was in your state (Prussia ) because of your criminal attempt to destroy ancient Kingdom.

Morality aside the consequences we could suffer would be analogous.

lambs after Soviet brainwash.

I'm starting to think you're a hardcore right winger like UPR or something.

Ask Seanus.

Seanus is shytless about the situation in Poland or Eastern Europe, i like the guy but he's a typical westerner in his thinking which means his opinions about Eastern Europe are pretty much worthless.

That ally is not able to settle its internal issues and after 20 years of independents is divided into three distinctive parts.
They are not able face Wolyn massacre and in Lwów they are making obstacles for Poles , not to say about historic buildings is the town which are close to become ruins.
And what about restoration for owners of land and houses ?
The best ally would have settled those issues long time ago.

All true but you have to remember that unlike Poland they dont have the luxury of 1000 years cultural and civilizational backbone to oppose corruption, their nation was shaped by soviet mentality, instead of looking down on them we need to help them get out of this hopeless situation.

In politics there only business there no friends.

Tell that to Hungary.

Russia is acting already.

On a limited timeframe, their economy is winding down at a speed that makes collapse within 10 years realistic.
Ironside 51 | 12,467  
20 Sep 2009 /  #78
Morality aside the consequences we could suffer would be analogous.

Could ...that good word.

I'm starting to think you're a hardcore right winger like UPR or something

I afraid that for me you will have to invent new scale as labels doesn't do me justice.

All true but you have to remember that unlike Poland they dont have the luxury of 1000 years cultural and civilizational backbone to oppose corruption, their nation was shaped by soviet mentality, instead of looking down on them we need to help them get out of this hopeless situation.

The best way to help is treat them as adults not cripples.

Tell that to Hungary.

There is always exception.:)

their economy is winding down at a speed that makes collapse within 10 years realistic.

As they have nuclear weapons its not likely.
Seanus 15 | 19,672  
20 Sep 2009 /  #79
What opinions would they be, Sokrates?
Sokrates 8 | 3,345  
20 Sep 2009 /  #80
The best way to help is treat them as adults not cripples.

And we're doing that, we can solve many issues in the future but with a mature healthy Ukraine, right now this state is not healthy and having it fall back into the Russian sphere of influence or turn into a third world dump serves nobody, least of all Poland.

There is always exception.:)

Maybe maybe not, personally i think sincerity and honesty IF accompanied by keen awareness of the situation you're in is a good thing in diplomacy, its not present in European or American diplomatic history which is why so many bad things happened in our history.

As they have nuclear weapons its not likely.

Whats not likely? Russian economy is failing on its face, how are they going to pay for strategic bombers, subs or missile maintenance if they wont be able to afford such basics as adequate food transport, electricty etc.

No money = no army = no leverage. Already the only reason why world is talking to Russia is because of their natural resources.
Seanus 15 | 19,672  
20 Sep 2009 /  #81
I'm waiting, Sokrates.
Ironside 51 | 12,467  
20 Sep 2009 /  #82
And we're doing that,

Think so?:)

we can solve many issues in the future but with a mature healthy Ukraine,

And you want to wait for Ukraine to mature?
They will never mature if we wont treat them as mature....they will learn that with Poland they don't have to make an effort.

Whats not likely?

World will help them as they have nuclear weapons, world will not allow Russia to collapse as it could be dangerous.
Well, in short, your prediction is possible but not probable.
Sokrates 8 | 3,345  
20 Sep 2009 /  #83
What opinions would they be, Sokrates?

Of the latest, how the shield situation resolved itself in a good way for Poland.

And you want to wait for Ukraine to mature?

No if we wait for them to mature they not only wont but they'll fall back into Russian sphere of influence and get taken apart, we need to actively help them.

Later when they're standing on their own we can sort out UPA and other things, Lwów can be sorted without taking it from them, the Poles who love Lwów will be able to eventually go, live there, invest money to make life better for themselves and the local inhabitants.

they will learn that with Poland they don't have to make an effort.

There is that risk yes, but i'm not proposing we bend over whenever its convenient for Ukraine, all i'm saying is that we need to, for the moment treat Ukraine as a rather fragile creature it is, using their weakness to take what was once ours is going to bite us in the future when Ukraine would inevitably got annexed or became a Russian protectorate and our buffer zone would go f*ck itself.

rld will help them as they have nuclear weapons, world will not allow Russia to collapse as it could be dangerous.

The world will have its own problems, what you're seeing now is not a temporary crisis but a downward pattern that will continue untill the West is unable to throw money even at domestic issues, let alone help Russia.

Well, in short, your prediction is possible but not probable.

Its not mine, i draw conclusions from articles worldwide
Seanus 15 | 19,672  
20 Sep 2009 /  #84
Why would you want to antagonise Russia? Do you even know the range of those Iranian missiles? I'll tell you if you don't. I can safely tell you that they couldn't even reach Poland. It is France and Germany that have piled the pressure on Iran. They don't have such elaborate designs, I wonder why not ;) ;)

Now, where are those shyt opinions I have? ;)
Sokrates 8 | 3,345  
20 Sep 2009 /  #85
Why would you want to antagonise Russia?

You need to phrase this question differently, how can we avoid antagonizing Russia whist keeping our national interest at heart.

Do you even know the range of those Iranian missiles?

It was never about Iran, it was from the start a political game with Russia to actually gain Iranian support, right now i'm starting to think US had it planned towards this conclusion from the beginning.

Now, where are those shyt opinions I have? ;)

You think it was about Iran, USA is looking to warm up its relations with Russia (for reasons yet unknown but i'm sure its a part of a bigger picture) i believe they used the missiles and their eventual backing down as a carrot.

Having those installations here in Poland would ceirtanly antagonize Russia but having US withdraw in such a way will ensure Russia it can safely engage in a political and economic offensive against Poland without US as much as lifting a finger so what USA did was incredibly disadvantegous to Poland, bordering on hostile.
Seanus 15 | 19,672  
20 Sep 2009 /  #86
And the national interest is in this case....?

The US planned it alright. Why are you only beginning to think this?

I don't think it was about Iran, that was the pretext and phony excuse. What you must remember is restitution. Was the relationship between the US and Russia really that great before the whole shield idea?

I agree with you on the last point. It's like Poland signing to NATO, showing their intent, and then having it rescinded. Much of the fault lies with Tusk and Sikorski. Nobody was pointing a gun at their head to sign it. If they couldn't see that it was a bogus deal, that's just blindness.
scrappleton - | 829  
20 Sep 2009 /  #87
Having those installations here in Poland would ceirtanly antagonize Russia but having US withdraw in such a way will ensure Russia it can safely engage in a political and economic offensive against Poland without US as much as lifting a finger so what USA did was incredibly disadvantegous to Poland, bordering on hostile.

You bring that "hostility" to us and you see what it gets you.

You are a peasant, pure and simple. There is no reasoning with a buffoon like you. The Russians don't want Poland anyway. Ukraine is what they want. You are so worried about the Russians you need to rely on the EUROPEANS to help you for once. Okay? Not North Americans. If something happens we will send you 2500 of our finest. Just like the Europeans have givens us: Mechanics, secretaries.. sitting in the rear - clear from any danger. We will grill out and drink beer as our "allies" have done. (This excludes the British who've at least engaged the enemy.)

Poland made this deal with one of the worst American presidents in history. Even he had to be them to accept the terms. It is not feasible at this time to implement such a thing. There is no ulterior motive beyond that. No sleeping with the Russians.

Try and comprehend that.
Seanus 15 | 19,672  
20 Sep 2009 /  #88
Obama is now proposing land and sea receptors as part of a comprehensive defence system. He is not jumping into anything, though.
Sokrates 8 | 3,345  
20 Sep 2009 /  #89
And the national interest is in this case....?

Remain a sovereign nation with the least possible Russian influence on our economy or politics.

Also viewing Russia as any sort of rational state capable of rational actions (which you do Sean) is at this point wrong.

Russians don't want Poland anyway. Ukraine is what they want.

Actually they want both but for now its only Ukraine that they realistically can have, no point.

You are so worried about the Russians you need to rely on the EUROPEANS to help you for once. Okay? Not North Americans.

I agree absolutely, in fact i believe that we should cut all alliance ties with America and keep our relations only on business like level.

There is no ulterior motive beyond that.

There's always ulterior motives, especially when a superpower like US feels threatened by EU.

You are a peasant, pure and simple.

My family were peasants, would you like to see our ancestral home? We owned an entire village actually, my ancestors were attending Viennese and Warsaw theatres when your people were living in log houses hunting bears and wiping with leaves :)))
Seanus 15 | 19,672  
20 Sep 2009 /  #90
First point, Sokrates, Costa Vs ENEL 1964. Does that mean anything to you?

Second point, Rockefeller and his kind have plans to whittle away national sovereignty and let's just say that he has power and influence. Many academic lectures have been given on the area.

Where did I say that the Russians were rational? Firing missiles from Kalingrad at the shield would have been childish, not rational. Even more so given the American guarantees (hmm) and the fact that they were to be allowed inspectors to be stationed there.

Naivety, Sokrates? I think it is you who doesn't understand the situation. They can have Ukraine, what are you going on about? Even the noises of having Ukraine in the EU and NATO are producing heated discussions. They can't have anything without a serious price.

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