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What would Europe look like with Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth today


Ironside 50 | 12,451  
6 Oct 2009 /  #181
since thoose areas was mostly non Polish speakers even though it was Poles there aswell.

Really?How do you know?
Sokrates 8 | 3,345  
6 Oct 2009 /  #182
Because we have census, monastery chronicles etc, the "native" Polish lands were in todays Ukraine and more or less in todays Poland sans Wrocław, the lands to which you refer were Lithuanian or a Lithianian dependency on Belarus and had little to do with Poland.
Ironside 50 | 12,451  
7 Oct 2009 /  #183
Because

I asked Grunwald because in 1772 it was one state and it didn't have much to do with language .......so his argument sucks ....put it together with Warsaw Duchy and its territory, its sucks much more, as at this time it was only 12 years after partitions or if you exclusively treat year 1772 23 years after first partition.

What is "strange" today, was quite obvious then ........if someone doesn't understand it should learn.

becouse doesn't understand first thing about past!
Sokrates 8 | 3,345  
7 Oct 2009 /  #184
Iron, bottom line is Napoleon gave us freedom when everyone else wanted to take it from us, it didnt come free and he didnt do it out of the kindness of his heart but in the end he did it.
slo 1 | 51  
7 Oct 2009 /  #185
[quote]slo:
I assume, Seanus, you have some rights to call Ukrainian state PM in such words.

He's right though, she knows Russia will damage Ukraine on every level if she gains control of it but she still kisses up to Kremlin simply to get political backing.

[/quote] I am not a big fan of Mrs. Tymoshenko simply because of her social populism. But I pay appropriate respect to every democratically elected politician in the World.

[quote]
slo:
This is just ridiculous.

No its not she's a c*cksucker allright, we call it as we see it, if you read these boards you'll find us Poles calling domestic politicians worse, and we're usually right too.

[/quote]

And I wont follow this trend. I don't care about national deviations. I care about a civilized behavior and respect to elected politicians.

Tymoshenko is not pro-Kremlin at all. She is just trying to find way of dealing with those monsters on East North border. It is not easy business. Ask Germans, they failed already.
stevew 2 | 29  
7 Oct 2009 /  #186
But going back to 'what would Europe look like'...

Or rather, what Europe may come to look like now that Poland is recovering.

I believe that Poland is one of the most powerful nations in Europe. But, for now, it is latent power.

A great positive power. Tell me, did the Commonwealth wage wars of aggression? I'd like to know more about this. It seems to me (from my little understanding) that the Commonwealth was not very belligerent, didn't tend to start wars but rather to finish them.

Somehow, I see Poland as if awaking from a terrible dream with the vision of Poland at the heart of a great and prosperous commonwealth as if only yesterday.

When I learned of how Poland was wrecked, virtually hung drawn and quartered it was like someone coming out of a 30 year coma hearing the most terrible news of the brutal rape and murder of his mother some 20 years ago.

So I strangely feel very strongly about this. I have no rational explanation for these feelings.

I feel compelled to ask 'What now? Where will you go, Poland?'

Are you going to stay depressed and downtrodden, wallowing in negativity? To remain virtually a third world country within Europe?

Many Poles I have known certainly seem to feel bafflingly negative about their countrymen declaring all other Poles to be lazy, ignorant thieves.

Its like an inverse nationalism where you seem to hate and distrust one another even more than you hate and distrust the Germans or Russians!

But you are a good people, a great people. And your country, the land, is good. You have excellent connectivity through the continent of Europe to the Baltic. Poland is very well placed, as real estate its fantastic. Why do you think the Germans, Russians and Austro-hungarians lusted after it so? They were virtually slobbering over Poland like a pack of hungry dogs.

I wish I were a Pole, so that I could call myself a nationalist and try to rouse these people to regain their place in the world, a place thats rightfully theirs in a Europe thats finally ready for what they stood for all those centuries ago.

Poland has a huge opportunity and has massive latent energy.

Lets not so much ask 'what would Europe have been like' but rather 'what will Europe be like'.
Sokrates 8 | 3,345  
7 Oct 2009 /  #187
I am not a big fan of Mrs. Tymoshenko simply because of her social populism. But I pay appropriate respect to every democratically elected politician in the World.

I do not, respect has to be earned especially by politicians.

Tymoshenko is not pro-Kremlin at all.

I agree she's not, she's with Kremlin because thats her way to power, like all political wh0res she doesnt have any ideals or ideas driving her, just a desire to stay on top whatever the cost her people will pay.

She is just trying to find way of dealing with those monsters on East North border. It is not easy business. Ask Germans, they failed already.

One way to deal with them would be trying to unite the nation, i cant see anyone in Ukraine trying to do that atm.

I believe that Poland is one of the most powerful nations in Europe. But, for now, it is latent power.

No it is not, we're poor and backwards, we've got many things going for us like an economy thats 50 years ahead of the West in that when socialsm makes Western states grind to a halt we're 50 years before that stage and can learn from their mistakes but Poland as is now is relatively weak.

Rule one to build any sort of power is to realise where you are at stage 1, Poland is geopolitcally poised to become a regional power if circumstances are right and exploited correctly though.
Ironside 50 | 12,451  
7 Oct 2009 /  #188
Iron, bottom line is Napoleon gave us freedom when everyone else wanted to take it from us, it didnt come free and he didnt do it out of the kindness of his heart but in the end he did it.

it dam stupid way of seeing it,no offense
Sokrates 8 | 3,345  
7 Oct 2009 /  #189
Its real, you may like it or not but the fact is no one else wanted independent Poland, it doesnt matter that it was smaller but it was, in fact Napoleon was crucial in preserving hope for independence.
Ironside 50 | 12,451  
7 Oct 2009 /  #190
Thats your opinion.
Be grateful, whatever, phew......people with your mindset have bought F-16

Poland has a huge opportunity and has massive latent energy.

Sure, problem is there was Soviet Union and now EU, there no chance for independent development,

I believe that Poland is one of the most powerful nations in Europe. But, for now, it is latent power.

So do I!
southern 73 | 7,071  
7 Oct 2009 /  #191
Napoleon was crucial in preserving hope for independence.

Napoleon feked you for the next century because he had the idea to bring you to his Moscow campaign.
stevew 2 | 29  
8 Oct 2009 /  #192
Rule one to build any sort of power is to realise where you are at stage 1, Poland is geopolitcally poised to become a regional power if circumstances are right and exploited correctly though.

Thats what I meant by 'Latent'

Its like having water behind a dam; its got latent energy. The water may be stagnating in that lake but when it is properly channeled it can power ten thousand homes and industries.

Thats Poland. Massive latent energy.
Sokrates 8 | 3,345  
8 Oct 2009 /  #193
Thats your opinion.

Thats history, F-16 was the best plane for the price btw, not because it was American but because it was the best quality for the given price.

Napoleon feked you for the next century because he had the idea to bring you to his Moscow campaign.

We were already "feked".
Ironside 50 | 12,451  
11 Oct 2009 /  #194
F-16 was the best plane for the price btw,

Come on .......you must be on another plane of existence and put it mildly you have no ******* clue - clueless about effects of hemlock :D
slo 1 | 51  
11 Oct 2009 /  #195
One way to deal with them would be trying to unite the nation, i cant see anyone in Ukraine trying to do that atm.

Ukraine is united, Sokrates. Don't tell it to Russiаns, they would be upset - so much money for propaganda of "divided Ukraine". In fact Ukraine is more united than many other democratic countries. A bipolar division pattern exist only at 2004 presidential election map (of course bipolar - there was two candidates). Parliament elections 2007 got different patterns and so on. If you say that Poland "is breathing the same air all around country" I'll be very surprised as Poland is a big country too. The issue is only that Ukraine is informationaly weak facing huge propaganda machine from its East-North... Ukrainian democracy need better presentation inside and outside the country. You can help not repeating the propaganda myths.
abunchanoise - | 1  
12 Oct 2009 /  #196
As I understand the things it was very much the Poland's idea to give away from federation and go to national state destiny somewhere declared in Riga 1921 when Pilsudski idea of revival of the federation of many nations was defeated by Grabski's and Dmowski's visions of Poland.

Poland as a cultural environment as such never welcomed other cultures to be present there.
It exercise it's power of being more Western culture on it's East territories sometimes to extreme.

Polish culture always was treated like something of the better value that all other Commonwealth cultures were. This was exactly what broke The P-L-U Commonwealth from inside. Crisis of value. Some artificial stance that it was the realm of multicultural and multilingual people helps very little as well as the treating "new born" nations as equal in international arena after 1991.

Too little too late.

I certainly which to see Europe with entity envisioned by Lithuanian gentry somewhere in beginning of 19th or 20th century, where many cultures and religions are treated as equal.

Unfortunately, reality is something different.
OP szczeciniak 4 | 92  
18 Nov 2009 /  #197
could poland have or be in sub domain of eu with its own sub domain army system?(sub nato).
commonwealth of free states?
Babinich 1 | 454  
18 Nov 2009 /  #199
Certainly not free. Ireland is the only country in the EU to hold a referendum on the treaty, as required by their constitution. Every other member state can ratify the treaty by a vote in their national parliament. As such, we hold responsibility for supporting or rejecting the treaty on behalf of about 490 million Europeans who do not have the option to vote.
OP szczeciniak 4 | 92  
18 Nov 2009 /  #200
And the EU is....what????

I DONT THINK SO its free (re: constitution of th eu?)
the question is? this! is it passable ?for poland to have or be in sub--eu and nato!!
with cluster of country(free countries) like Greece and Romania, Ukraine and Giorgia, baltic states and even biala Russia(? mark )

any country please sight in !!! the list is open.
Ironside 50 | 12,451  
18 Nov 2009 /  #201
Polish culture always was treated like something of the better value that all other Commonwealth cultures were.

No, wrong, its so wrong that you can't be wrong more!
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 11,838  
18 Nov 2009 /  #202
Certainly not free.

Ridiculous!

Tell me more about the dictatorship of the EU? Vanishing of people over night? Gulags for critics? One-party ruling with their own media?

Maybe you should rethink what Freedom and Dictatorships means actually...
Mr Grunwald 33 | 2,236  
19 Nov 2009 /  #203
Vanishing of people over night? Gulags for critics? One-party ruling with their own media?

That's just free press

You can have a dictatorship with a free press. It's just with a dictator who doesn't care of what the media writes, and has his own press. :)
Seanus 15 | 19,670  
19 Nov 2009 /  #204
Gulags for critics and gulasz for the hungry :) A dictatorship with a free press for the dictator, yes. Putin virtually had a monopoly over press content when he was leader (he's still de facto leader, not de jure).
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 11,838  
19 Nov 2009 /  #205
You can have a dictatorship with a free press.

Well...when we have a free press, functioning democracies with lotsa parties from every spectrum, regular votings, no gulags nor secret services against critics, traveling freely between our countries....I think I can live with that kind of a dictatorship! :):):) Go EU!!!
OP szczeciniak 4 | 92  
30 Nov 2009 /  #206
Poland, Lithuania, Ukraine to Form Military Brigade
would it last in today times?
krakowpost.com/article/1710
Sokrates 8 | 3,345  
30 Nov 2009 /  #207
Why not? Its a peacekeeping brigade the only about 35% size of a regular army brigade, apparently Poland is providing all the modern-ish equipment while the Ukrainians and Lithuanians provide 800~ troops.

But 1500 dudes running around in Africa gunning down nyggers is hardly a return to Commonwealth times.

Lithuanians hate us for the whole deal with Zeligowski, Ukrainians want to like us but still remember how we were kicking them around and then there's the whole UPA thing.
OP szczeciniak 4 | 92  
2 Dec 2009 /  #208
It is to be made up of about 4,500 troops and headquartered in the eastern Polish city of Lublin.
it will not be a battalion anymore, but upgrage to A brigade!!!
The typical NATO standard brigade consists of approximately 4,000 to 5,000 troops.
what would come next?
Mr Grunwald 33 | 2,236  
2 Dec 2009 /  #209
Poland, Lithuania, Ukraine to Form Military Brigade

Awesome!

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