Polish in vitro treatment fully refundable - bonkers!

- can I quote you? ;)))
Well said. Exactly - the Church threatens to use their "nukes" - the excomunication. Then if they say it, then they should be ready to be called their bluff! Otherwise that's pathetic and lame.

You never heard of St Augustine's 'just war'? Should Poles have set idly by like sheep and let themselves be overrun by the Heil Hitler krauts like the corwardly Czechs and Frogs? The war on terrorism is a war against evil -- something ever decent human beign should support.

What terrorism? Are you insane? Have you actually seen any act of terrorism? All that is either in Asia or North Am (USA) and rarely in Europe (wonder why?) and especially doesn't happen in Poland


No. but defending your country is patriotism etc. and has little or nothing to do with religion, so....?

It's a quite funny thing, but for some 123 years the Poles were called "bandits" and "terrorists". Now we are invading other people's country.

Btw - St Augustin meant a defensive war as a "just one".

Tell that to the Brits and Spanish who lost loved ones in thsoe terrorsit attacks.

"Being excommunicated", this sounds so very Torquemada. In which century do these frocks live?
I do not think the Polish episcopate has to teach anybody a moral lesson. They employ former SB guys to rob the country from its hospitals and schools. Getting "back" property at rock bottom rates and sell it to the highest bidder. Files of priests spying for the commies are not available or denied.

They were too coward to condemn the religious nazis on Krakowskie P. They are not able to suppress Radio Marija. They cannot silence the fascist mouthpiece "Nasz Dziennik".

They instruct people how to vote.

In Vitro during all these years has allowed thousands of normal people in civilized countries to get their children wish fullfilled. People who were not able to get children by another way. How cruel you have to be to be blind to this?

But we are talking about an institution which allowed child-molesting by its frocks during generations. Why should we be surprised? What do they know about normal family life?

I just read something today about this in vitro controversy in P-Land. Much like the abortion debate, both sides seem to go too far here. The RCC wants to ban it completely while the Far Left wants to make it available to everyone and even have the state pay for the procedure.

The article also said this:


Sounds like all the Polish girl abortions are hurting Poland's population (as discussed in that other thread).

But bringing children into single parent homes would lead to other expensive costs to society.
So making in vitro available only to married couples seems reasonable. And as it is no "right", peeps should have to pay for it themselves.

I think most normal people see it like this - people should pay for it themselves, but it shouldn't be banned. I just hope that this is what eventually happens (same as now) - I don't think Poland can afford it, but it certainly shouldn't be banned on the account of the aforementioned spoiled old men.


I actually think they should call their bluff - the RCC isn't going to risk making an enemy out of the ruling party, are they? I suspect this whole thing is just another example of the internal battle for control within the Polish Catholic Church - you can see from the way that they dropped the mention of excommunication from the final communique.

I'm afraid the reality is that the ruling party is not going to risk making an enemy out of the RCC. It's too big a political force, and it'd be bad for elections and publicity...

it feels like Poland makes one step forward and two steps back.
refundable in vitro?? hell no!!!! you go to jail for two years!!

My draft law on in vitro is reasonably Catholic - says Jarosław Gowin . According to the minister of justice , most doctors favor its solution in this case. Gowin also admits that his political heart beats on the right. - If skręciłaby platform to the left , it is obvious that for politicians like me there would be no place in it - says the program " each side " .

In 2016, after taking over the rule of Poland, PiS rightists interminably suspended the state refundation of the
in-vitro programme .

The new democratic coalition is going to reintroduce it as soon as possible.

Some speakers in the new Parl said:

- Today we are giving back to Poles the right to the happiness that is a child. Restoring financing for in vitro from the state budget is the first decision of the democratic majority, she noted.

- On October 15, the time for controlling the consciences of Polish women and men ended in Poland - she added.

How cruel you have to be, how cruel the authorities have to be to deprive you of the greatest happiness that can be in life - for family, for parents, for having children. The civic project ends the cruelty that occurred immediately after the takeover of power (by his predecessors - ed.) - said Kosiniak-Kamysz. - What did you really have in you to make, in December 2015, right after taking over (power), one of the first decisions to block your happiness and having children? - he added, turning to PiS politicians.

Deputy Speaker of the Sejm Monika Wielichowska (KO) pointed out that "when PiS, by the decision of Minister Konstanty Radziwiłł, closed the financing of the in vitro program from the state budget, the world collapsed on thousands of people of reproductive age." - Women's world collapsed because they lost the chance to be a mother, parents' world collapsed because they lost the chance to have the desired parenthood - she added.

- What did taking away the in vitro refund mean? It meant that those in power humiliated the poor. They humiliated those families who did not have money for a private procedure that costs a lot, a procedure that is difficult, often painful, and requires sacrifices. And you started stigmatizing those who couldn't afford it. You deprived poorer Polish families of the right to happiness and to have a child, because even the richer ones often had to go into debt and take out a loan just to have a child, she noted.

She then turned to the politicians of the ruling camp. -I look at you, PiS politicians, and I wonder if you are not ashamed. Aren't you ashamed that you hurt people and took away the happiness of families? - she asked. - For eight years you have pursued a policy of contempt towards children conceived using in vitro fertilization, their parents and their families - she added.

I think in-vitro should be legal but.....given that a non-negligible part of the population has ethical problems with in-vitro I'm not totally on board with making them fund it through their taxes. Being a parent is a negative right not an affirmative right.

Well, if at the same time you scream how people should have more kids...

I'm not screaming that and I have nothing against in-vitro and think it should be legal, but it's not cheap and I'm not crazy about making people who do have a problem with it pay for it through taxes.

Healthcare and the family is a worthy expenditure for any society as a whole.

I meant the government.


How about people who oppose vaccines? Should we stop vaccination programs for kids?

Spot on.

Some people oppose speed limits. Yet no sane person would say that speed limits shouldn't apply to them or that part of their taxes shouldn't go towards enforcing them.

I do however understand the point that simply wanting to be a parent doesn't mean you have to be one.

Thankfully that issue was neve one I had to deal with. I had a coworker in UK that needed invitro. They couldn't get it for free because her husband had a kid from previous relationship. So they spend all their savings on it instead of getting a mortgage. They are still renting but have 2 twin daughters.

Cost per dose is very small and I'm against compulsory vaccination as well (the mrna disasters have firmed that up for me... totally ineffective and actually harmful to young adults and yet relentlessly pushed).

But the scale is much bigger. Why should people that don't believe in vaccines should pay for them?

I'm just trying to show, that if we start looking that way there is many things people may not like/want. And let:s not go into 'I won't use that so why my taxes should fund it'

Cause I'm trying to be nice to the religious and vaccine hesitancy is not religious based while those opposed to in-vitro are mostly opposed on religious grounds...

Yes, but being fair requires us to question other cases of state financing,. e.g. RC religion classes in Polish schools. There is a growing number of people who consider it a waste of their taxes. :):):):

Lena was right - if we dig into a few dozen issues funded by the state, we will always find supporters and opponents. It is impossible to get them meet in the middle of the road, especially in Poland.

That is why peoples/nations invented democracy to control such controvercies. :):):) In 2016 the majority voted the in vitro programme out.. Now, the new majority is going to vote it back in.

And we have a perfect balance in nature!! Isn`t it wonderful???? :):):)

Should not be funded by the government the parents that want that can pay for it.

In vitro is different because of the price... and the fact that no one is obligated to help the infertile become parents (a bit harsh in black and white, but....)


It's not healthcare... and I'd be more on board if it were being pushed as a way of increasing Poland's bad demographics rather than just sticking it to PiS (I'm mostly in favor of sticking it to PiS but I do have some limits).

No, it isn`t. Such technical trifles as price don`t matter at all. We are talking about a general rule - either we accept that the state can fund some programmes or not. If it is accepted that RC religion classes are sponsored by the state, then in vitro has to be, too.


Why are you so cruel on infertile people?? They are already miserable enough while you are heaping more stresses on them. It is really inhumane. Stop playing attention sicker like Novi now. :):):)

Me? I'm okay with in vitro, and if private charities want to kick in and help them financially, then great!

I don't see a need for the state to pay for expensive elective treatments.

Yes and this is right to do.

All healthcare and medical issues are a matter for all of society; ability to pay and good deeds from charities should never be a defining factor.

That`s a little short sighted of you. If there are more kids, your pension will be higher coz they will finance it as it is in Poland. :):) Think ahead of your current life and time. :):)


Paradoxically, rightists refuse to do the right things. AmaSSing.

It's best if the state finances abortion and in vitro. Perhaps we should ban abortion and introduce forced adoption instead of in vitro fertilization. 🤔

President Duda signed the latest legislation of the new Parliament bringing back the state funding for in vitro.
Amasing!
Respect.