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Unfulfilled promises by PiS


Ironside 51 | 11,510
30 Sep 2021 #241
So?

I got his measure.

No, weirdo.

Am I a weirdo? No, it's on you it was you who would rather bend backwoods and weave like a weed than being straightforward and say - hey I don't buy it - just because.

Don't abuse the reader's sanity by making up poor excuses.
mafketis 29 | 9,976
30 Sep 2021 #242
Wałęsa said publicly he invited Kaczyński to bring a husband

The funny thing is, Wałęsa 'apologized' for that by saying the time/place he said it was inconsiderate or something like that...... but he never said it wasn't true... I often thought that LW was smarter than he got credit for and there was often (not always, but often) a kind of method to his madness... I realized early on he would say dumb, illogical things to distract everyone (so they start discussing the dumb thing he said rather than the topic he was distracting attention from...

talk radio, where more latitude is allowed

I'm guessing this is... interpreted by someone. If it were in black and white PiS would mention it everyday on every radio and tv station... except that maybe they think domestic abuse is no big deal so they don't realize what a bombshell that would be (if it were true, which I doubt).
amiga500 2 | 922
30 Sep 2021 #243
they don't realize what a bombshell that would be

what bombshell>? he is not in the game and has no influence. the man is a embarrassing relic who has already been accused of being an informant and traitor from official documents and a multitude of colleagues and historians spanning decades. smacking his wife around is really a footnote compared to his other crimes.
Ziemowit 13 | 4,493
30 Sep 2021 #244
If it were in black and white PiS would mention it everyday on every radio and tv station

This is damn true!

LW was smarter than he got credit for and there was often (not always, but often) a kind of method to his madness...

Indeed, but his opponents aren't usually that smart to get it.
gumishu 11 | 5,761
30 Sep 2021 #245
a kind of method to his madness...

a method to boast and promote himself - yes, indeed
mafketis 29 | 9,976
30 Sep 2021 #246
what bombshell>?

See PiS supporters think domestic abuse is not really a big deal...

a method to boast and promote himself - yes, indeed

He was willing to take a tremendous amount of public ridicule to achieve his aims - love him or hate him or just be kind of 'meh' about him... few have that kind of dedication.

accused of being an informant and traitor from official documents

Many of the fossils who were around in the PRL and still alive denigrate Wałęsa to try to make their own insignificance (or apathy or compliance) during the PRL more palatable to themselves... and will go to weird measures like putting total faith in some PRL record-keeping (though they dismiss the PRL records that indicate that it was the secret service that spread the informant rumors to create tension among members of the dissident movement). It's called cognitive dissonance.
gumishu 11 | 5,761
30 Sep 2021 #247
of public ridicule to achieve his aims -

yes, his aims to gain power, promote himself and boast around the world
Ironside 51 | 11,510
30 Sep 2021 #248
It's called cognitive dissonance.

Must be very acute in your case. As there are books and documents on the issue, Nobody questions facts. Nobody is suing.

omestic abuse is not a big deal...

Is not a matter for the gov to meddle in. Look at the mess in the US that all those goodies two she's all those let's make a difference type caused.
Lenka 3 | 2,735
30 Sep 2021 #249
Is not a matter for the gov to meddle in.

Excuse me? Are you seriously telling me government shouldn't have any system in place to protect people from abusive spouses and parents?
jon357 67 | 17,553
30 Sep 2021 #250
Are you seriously telling

He did say exactly that once before when commenting an a well-publicised child abuse case. Apparently "parents always know best".
Oathbreaker 3 | 434
30 Sep 2021 #251
@Lenka
There should be a system in place, but not by The government cause they can abuse it towards their political opponents!

Government solutions should be last resort, not main objective to strive for. Otherwise people will think the government is responsible for everything!

I am strongly against any form of child robbery which uses abuse as a pretext
Lenka 3 | 2,735
30 Sep 2021 #252
There should be a system in place, but not by The government

How is it any different than any other form of crime? If someone beaten me up on the street I could call the police. I don't see why it shouldn't work the same just because I'm married to the abuser? Or I am his/her kid?

And what system do you have in mind?
Oathbreaker 3 | 434
30 Sep 2021 #253
@Lenka
I think you misunderstand me...
There is a difference between police being called in solve a domestic dispute, straż miejska being called in and a department of child abuse being called in. What kind of jurisdiction they have and who they answer to! Soon by advocating for further interferance it can lead to an example of: PiS abducting kids from families of the opposition with such pretexts in a fully legal manner and backed by the majority.

I just wouldn't want that to happen, it's parents main responsibility, then further parts of the family, neighbours and community and not after that should the civil service be brought in.

Only situations where police/straż miejska should intervene is when the law is being evidently broken (fear for your own life/children and/or irresponsible amounts of drugs/alcohol involded which puts rest of family at risk)

Problem is that in most families that would need that kind of help, wouldn't call the police
amiga500 2 | 922
1 Oct 2021 #254
Many of the fossils who were around in the PRL and still alive denigrate Wałęsa to try to make their own insignificance

Anna Walentynowicz said Walesa was a traitor in his dealings in the 70s and 80s. History will judge her as the true spirit of solidarity and standing up to communism. Are you going to call her insignificant you filthy post communist booster? ? Walesa just lost a three year court case and has to apologise to the historian who wrote a book about him being a SB informant. And he has to leave that apology on his social media for 30 days.

Sometimes it takes time to find out some historical details and put two and two together like his old friends who he betrayed did and came forward. You know how it took you a few years to link how the faucets in your house were mysteriously leaking every couple of days to your wife being banged by half the polish plumbers union? Same principle.
mafketis 29 | 9,976
1 Oct 2021 #255
Anna Walentynowicz said Walesa was a traitor in his dealings in the 70s and 80s

Since you (AFAIK) have never lived in Poland you might not realize how weirdly she went off the rails.... I admired her a lot early on, but by 2000 she was starting to lose it.

I remember discussing one article with a couple of Polish people in which she claimed that PRL records about spread rumors of Wałęsa working with the SB to sow disagreement and claimed that Wałęsa should be shot in the head (dostać w czapę)....

A very sad decline of a once heroic figure (also true of Wałęsa in many ways).
Ziemowit 13 | 4,493
1 Oct 2021 #256
Are you seriously telling me government shouldn't have any system in place to protect people from abusive spouses and parents?

That's what the rightards typically think.
amiga500 2 | 922
1 Oct 2021 #257
she claimed that PRL records about spread rumors of Wałęsa working with the SB to sow disagreement

Can you rephrase that so it makes sense?

and claimed that Wałęsa should be shot in the head

Thats exactly what should happen to traitors who betray their friends in a revolutionary movement, especially during martial law.
mafketis 29 | 9,976
1 Oct 2021 #258
Can you rephrase that so it makes sense?

she was told about/shown PRL files that discuss how to sow dissent among Solidarity members by leaking rumors about Wałęsa being a tajny współpracownik... she didn't want to know....

Thats exactly what should happen to traitors

you wanna pull the trigger?
amiga500 2 | 922
1 Oct 2021 #259
she was told about/shown PRL files

By who? Michnik? where are these files? I have never heard of them. Instead we have the bolek teczka that walesa brought down the Olszewski government to stop being unveiled. If they were fake you think he would be the first to release them. A multitude of ex comrades and friends who claim he was a traitor, his actions in always simping to the communist government and calling off strikes against the majority of solidarity, leszek millers leaked comments that the navy dropped him off at the gdansk strike, a multitude of historians documenting evidence that he was a traitor, his ignoring the workers 84-89 and then being put forward by the communist authorities as the 'head' of solidarity, his actions in 92 in opposing NATO and wanting the Russian bases to be free trade zones under Russian sovereignty. Additional documentation confirming the Bolek files released by Kiszczaks widow last few years. A court telling walesa to apologise to the historian who wrote a book about his traitorous activity. It's important to note he was under military intelligence auspice and not SB which is why there is no documentation to his treason in the 80s. As Biden would say Come on man!

I forgot to mention his pathetic grovelling nature to jaruzelski which was captured on camera , getting drunk with the communists during the round table, etc etc. When he was interviewed by SB in the 79 or 80, he haughtily told the agents I will convey this approach to where it needs to go. Many historians think he was referring to Military Intelligence as he was their agent.

And even if some dept in SB had that stated aim about Walesa, they would not have known he had been transferred to the military. And who held the power in poland during and post marital law, definitely not the civil intelligence side, look how SB agents took the fall for the murder of Popiełuszko.
Ziemowit 13 | 4,493
1 Oct 2021 #260
Bolek ... Wałęsa ... Kiszczak ... all this is the thing of the past these days in Poland and no one, even the guys from PiS, cares tbh. A few people still have an obsession about this and you are one of them, amiga500.

Time flows, but you don't flow along with it. Sad!
amiga500 2 | 922
1 Oct 2021 #261
no one, even the guys from PiS, cares tbh.

Hey dimwit, the government just put up a monument to Olszewski and had a big ceremony. You may want to forget what side your family were on and their betrayal of poland but some of us who are interested in modern history as it shapes the present. Yes PiS is also changing the present for the better much to you and other post communists impotent fury. long may it last.

@ziemowit
Tell us how did your family could afford to send you to england to study and pay for your room and board during communist times? Could it be they are part of the communist elite in those times of which you are now telling us ' it's old news, no one cares forget about it! ' Talk about a vested interest!
jon357 67 | 17,553
1 Oct 2021 #262
Bolek ... Wałęsa ... Kiszczak ......... no one, even the guys from PiS, cares tbh

Exactly.

They rarely moan about Moczar in the same way, do they. Must be something they liked about him.

england to study

In the part of England where I'm from, there was a lot of toing and froing between the WWII Polish diaspora and family/friends in Poland itself. I suspect very few of the people involved were in any sense Communist.
amiga500 2 | 922
1 Oct 2021 #263
They rarely moan about Moczar in the same way

There is a big difference between 1956-1968 and 1981-1992. Are you capable of making an educated guess why one would be fresher in the memory?

there was a lot of toing and froing between the WWII Polish diaspora and family/friends in Poland itself.

Stop trying to cover for your fellow commie, ziemo himself wrote that the family where he was boarding at, to study at university in england, were strangers.

Exactly.

So we have gone from it's all lies to who cares? lolzo.
I must say, for someone who is interested in history, and ziemo too for that matter. your attitude of disinterst is very curious,as it only is in relation to one paticular period regarding one paticular ideology. If someone were to bring up the historical crimes and betrayals of the british empire or christianity one would not be able to shut you up. hypocrisy much?
jon357 67 | 17,553
1 Oct 2021 #264
There is a big difference between 1956-1968 and 1981-1992

For someone your age, born after 1992 and from Australia, it's probably all abstract. Basically, what you know, is what you've read. Online of course. For those were alive during both the time periods you tried to mention, it isn't abstract; it is their lived reality. Ziemo was alive during part of the first period and all of the second. As was I, albeit several hundred miles away.

And of course you had to ask Dr Google who Moczar was.

Then again, a hallmark of PiSuarzy and their supporters is that they obsess over the past. At least Jaro actually remembers it.
amiga500 2 | 922
1 Oct 2021 #265
And of course you had to ask Dr Google who Moczar was.

Actually I didn't , and I'm a lot older than you think. I was born during the winter of a hundred years in poland. Hey you can google that! So jog on chippy tits.
jon357 67 | 17,553
1 Oct 2021 #266
Hey you can google that

No need to, and yes, you're still quite young.

I'm a lot older than you think.

Me too, though someone (with decent eyesight) said the other day that I look 35. He was maybe trying to be polite though.

So jog on chippy tits.

You're learning. I liked that one. There's hope for you yet.

About toing and froing between Poland and other countries, there was a lot more than you think. Certainly plenty of foreigners in Warsaw. I once got talking to an old man originally from England who'd been in Poland since the 50s and never been back, not even during Stan Wojenny.
amiga500 2 | 922
1 Oct 2021 #267
you're still quite young,

why thank you, though i take it you are only 5-15 years older? which is also quite young ;) i look forward to living my 40s in a carefree and responsible manner. There is always strelecz and friends who have OD to look to as an example of what not to do.

to an old man originally from England who'd been in Poland

Of course due to the cost of living that was quite possible, but unless one was granted refugee status or was given a visa by the goverment as a academic or highly educated worker, was pretty hard to survive in the west emigrating from a communist country.
jon357 67 | 17,553
1 Oct 2021 #268
Worth remembering that when people made visits to family (more common than you might think) I doubt they were expected to pay for very much. There was an especially large amount of toing and froing by clergy, academics and entertainers. A lady I know here visited my city for a month in the early 60s with a student theatre group she was in.
amiga500 2 | 922
1 Oct 2021 #269
i take it you are only 5-15 years older?

You didn't respond, is it 15-25 years then? ;) If someone says you look 35 and they are being polite it's usually 10-15 years.
jon357 67 | 17,553
1 Oct 2021 #270
Off topic (and top secret too), however of course the core demographic of PiS voters are the rural elderly.


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