Poles say a big YES to our European Union

@BB
#838

That's the gist of it, until partitions it was mostly and easily seen as a nobleman's cause, ignored by most of society since the nobility had the most to say in it. During partitions all Poles felt how it is without ones own country, being ruled by non-Poles.

The more the agenda of a centralized Europe is being pushed artificially, the more backing it loses. Besides a stronger federalization would only serve to maintain an large profesional conventional army, such armies can easily be destroyed by nuclear arnemants. In modern times, drones, intelligence services, special forces and hackers can create far larger consequences and influence faster and cheaper.

What would an army of 500,000 troops help from all of europe if 30 special forces breached a nuclear power plant in France, hacked it. Downloaded all info, then set for it to blow up?

Just imagine it, it's not Napoleonic times any more nor ww1. Frontlines nowadays won't stop an advancing army, only to be a target to be attacked first.

Skirmishes, intelligence, propaganda, public opinion and swift reacting special forces able to reach quickly most of the globe + drones do not require a strong super state, but co-operative research teams and enough funding. For a state budget to increase long term, one needs to increase growth, not reduce it. A large state would rather hinder growth to achievements you so admire cause... China uff iz so big on map.

My question is: and?

Who is that? That 'offer' from Berlin is bad. very bad. If you can't offer anything better then there is nothing to talk about.

How so?

I compare a future USofE with the one federal super state in existence, the USofA! (Build by Europeans at that!)

How do you think would....say.....Iowa....Nevada....or Mississippi hold up all alone against....say....China or Russia? Economically and military?

Think about Alaska....would Russia had gotten it back till now? All alone by itself?

@Bratwurst Boy
Same argument with uno reverse card
How can tiny lil Luxembourg not been eaten yet by big meanie eanie Germany and France?

Try again

Besides, even tho U.S.A is a gigantic state. It's sucess was largely based upon it's largely untouched private sector and public effort to populate and develope it's most barren yet ressourceful regions. Also by not being bombed, conquered and left alone mostly during two world wars let it prosper undisturbingly, it wasn't until the vanity hit america and cockness x100 factor where public spending increased (we can afford it attitude) and less minding of quality (which was a trademark for the U.S products pre1990.) and globalization, transferring production over to China to save money on workers income (which is a tremendous error).

With ever increasing concern over acess to the federal budget (social benefits, pensions etc) the immigration begun to be an issue for those who didn't want competition over said privelieges. So the tide of immigration which helped U.S.A to grow demographically, by increasing amount of tax payers and consumers (more consumers, larger market) became a problem for most americans instead of the understood reason for it's sucess.

European states have tried to immitate it mostly with immigration while having large social benefits, and without thinking about developing rural areas.

When was it last time a european state wanted to begin a city? And how many the last 60 years? It should give you a clue. While China is developing silently everywhere it can, and people are worries about Taiwan... Taiwan is only a prestigious issue for sure for China. And is a nice deflection from everything else

Without the EU it HAD BEEN EATEN by its neighbours....countless times....but now they are all members of the EU...as equals with equal voting rights!

....After the Eighty Years' War, Luxembourg became a part of the Southern Netherlands, which passed to the Austrian line of the Habsburg dynasty in 1713.....

.....

....After occupation by Revolutionary France, the 1815 Treaty of Paris transformed Luxembourg into a Grand Duchy.....

....

...in the following decades, Luxembourg fell further into Germany's sphere of influence, particularly after the creation of a separate ruling house in 1890. It was occupied by Germany from 1914 until 1918 and again from 1940 until 1944.....

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Luxembourg

And now that:

...Since the end of the Second World War, Luxembourg has become one of the world's richest countries, buoyed by a booming financial services sector, political stability, and European integration. ....

That was a bad example for your position, Gruni! :)

Actually all tinies and weaker countries will never have it so good as with the EU....especially those who fear a dominant Germany....without the EU you wouldn't be equals anymore, with the same voting rights, sitting at the same tables...adhering to the same treaties!

Ask Luxembourg! ;)


Where should they do that? There is hardly any barren land in Europe...some would even say it's overpopulated.....maybe if we put more ressources into space exploration...the search for a new Earth to colonize....new ressources and developing of new technologies....also something that we Europeans TOGETHER could do alot better than every country alone for itself....logical, right?

@Bratwurst Boy
Luxembourg is a good example cause E.U is not such a strong superstate yet! Which we both know! And I can retort with it's nice existance before 1914, and 1918-1940 and after 1945.

Somehow I cannot remember it stopped existing, few years of occupation doesn't seem to throw it's legitimacy into such dissarey as you think it has!

Next!

I don't know if you have noticed, but there is a gigantic urbanization going on. With the pandemic, it should have been a bit reduced tho.

The day a country stops developing, is the day it starts decaying. Growth gotta be!

It is the strongest super state we did ever build....

The other alliances were only build to hold the "others" in check, and we both know how that always ended...those "nice" times had been short lived breaks, always gearing up for the next big catastrophe.

As the USofA had been disunified and quarreling once in their history that too led there to war and utter destruction. Only a Union can and did put an end to that!

A Europe without the EU, with all its countries members, will soon also again lead to a sad and bad repetition of well known history....it would be futile to believe otherwise.


A country isn't only developing when it's population grows....or otherwise african or arabic sh*itholes would be far above us by now.

The next proof of superiority and development is the "race to the stars"....there lies our all future! Who wins this will rule!

You haven't build anything as yet. The way you are going about doesn't bode well for the future.

It's an amazing achievement. There are obviously some hard tests coming, however the EU may well emerge stronger.

I wonder if some joint program could be created which would help European countries to fight corruption. For example some EU committee would be able to take controll of police in those countries which want to become EU members and want reduce corruption. Would be permitted to arrest people in those countries after corruption charges. In one word, could we create a European Police?

*nods*

...doesn't mean survived challenges won't change the EU too.

That belorussian scheme trying to blackmail the EU with refugees is a good example, it only will lead to something which had been taboo till now, a "Festung Europa"!

But every "United States" needs that, it's practically a basic requirement....a clearly defined common territory with jointly secured and defended borders!

A common currency.....free trade in the biggest common market in the world....free moving across the continent for goods and people....funds for the weaker regions...common institutions...

That's what super duper Empires of the past tried to achieve....the EU did it, peacefully....for nearly 80 years now!

You've got to be kidding me, either you don't know sh't about the EU, it's advantages and it's disadvantages....or you are just willfully ignorant, and that is never a good advisor to make correct judgements and informed opinions!


Alot of these problems are still part of the souvereignity of each member state....without giving up more of these national rights up to the EU there is no way the EU can do something about it, she just has not the necessary rights and allowances.

It's a long way to go about it, some members will walk the whole nine yard....some will not!

You sure create a lot of hype. I'm talking about nitty-gritty of the real world.
You rather skip that part.
Corrruption one guy done it all by his lonesome. Please.

Europol could be a start. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europol
And Interpol en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpol

Yeah well....Interpol just elected a criminal to lead....a "fox in the henhouse" so to speak.....

....As if to prove the thesis of Applebaum's article, on Nov. 25, 2021 the International Police Criminal Organization, popularly known as INTERPOL, elected Emirati Ministry of the Interior (MOI) General Ahmed Naser al-Raisi as its new president. The media has widely reported General al-Raisi's involvement in human rights abuses and the UAE's role in past exploitation of INTERPOL.....

inkstickmedia.com/the-fox-guarding-the-henhouse/

Building up a real functional Europol would be a worthwile achievement in the light of this!

The main problem for all these common institutions as I see it is the babylonic language chaos in Europe I fear....a problem I don't have a clear cut answer for yet.

I would go with english ffs....as would most Germans....even as german is after english the most widely spoken language now that the Brits are out (36%), but the French are stuck on french (29%) and so are others with theirs like italian (18%)....or spanish (17%)....but a real USofE need besides a common territory, joint borders and shared institutions at least one main language EVERYBODY uses, at least officially!

The French may not need Europol too much, but in countries like Ukraine many educated people would agree to improve their English. And if Europol agents would live in Ukraine and do arests there, they would definitely need to practice Ukrainian.

....it should be definitely "homegrown" people in every Europol base!

The obvious choice but now that we have left your repressive, backward looking German club, that makes things awkward...

....english it would be not necessary because of little England! ;)

English would be needed because of little Ireland and Malta....?

It's the Lingua Franca because of the US....

@Bratwurstboy

Yes and no.
English and French were the.most important languages before America even existed.
All that has happened since America was created is that French has lost it's rellevence.

Don't let these useless clowns in and tell them that they have plenty to do out West. Like stopping the invasion...and catching and expelling those who made it.

@Novichok
Europol are a joke....


The strongest state Gemany ever built.....


They did it peacefully. but it was not The EU that did it, it was Gemany.
And that is the problem with it in a nutshell.
If you can't see that.you must be blind..... Or German.....

But don't feel bad...Leftists made law enforcement a joke everywhere. Here, it's the local cops, the FBI, the Border Protection, the DA's, the Security guys at the malls and hospitals...unarmed and allowed only to call 911 - something a 10-year-old girl can do.

@Novichok

I.was.going to mention the FBI but held back..... They are just as useless as Europol.

Yeah....and before that it was German....and before THAT it was Latin....so what!

I would like to keep English (it's also most easy for Germans since it started out as a germanic dialect)....no interest in learning Mandarin....


Really....as the EU was started Germany just lost WWII, was totally destroyed, still occupied and partitioned....that must have been some magic at work here! ;)

(Or we are really those Übermenschen!!!:)



You prefer we try it with our armies?


Is a unification generally you have a problem with *cough UNITED Kingdom cough Commonwealth cough* or do you just don't like especially Germans doing it? Like winning Football World Championships? :)

Germans are very efficient magicians and have done this many times before :-)


You can't compare Europe to the British Isles.
We are one island with a.long history of unity.
Europe is just too many different countries and cultures to ever be truly united.


You tried it with your armies twice and failed both times.
You will fail again by trying to do it peacefully.


Yeah, stick to football, you are very good at that... World domination?
Nah, Germans are crap at that!

But it didn't start out peacefully for you either, didn't it...not to mention losing big chunks over time...and I heard there is "talk" in Ireland and Scotlang now too...;)

It's like the EU in reverse!


Totally agree....that's why we stopped trying! :)


What is wrong with peaceful unification?

The problem is that it is not unification.
It is Germanisation.....


But you didn't ..... You Germans still want to dominate Europe.
And as history has proven, you will fail again.....