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Poles say a big YES to our European Union


KorkiTaczer - | 62
11 May 2020 #361
Well what we have here, a little old boys' club... And still none of you numnuts can explain why 'a big YES to our European Union' doesn't help our beloved opposition...although clown No. 1 suggests something else...

The big supporters now seem embarrassed

It's possible to be appalled by PiS but not to have any love for PO

You two are quite funny and complete each other.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
11 May 2020 #362
not just harp on about things that happened 10 years ago

They basically get their orders daily from Nowogrodzka, and they're told to go out and disseminate that message on the wider internet. It's quite pathetic, especially when you see posters such as the one above who can't explain why the election wasn't held.

PiS are clearly terrified that Duda is going to lose, and with the opinion polls now showing that Duda will struggle to win in the 2nd round, I wouldn't be surprised if they call a state of emergency in the coming weeks simply to delay the inevitable.
Spike31 3 | 1,610
11 May 2020 #363
I wonder how that would come to pass....

Well, think about Brexit. It wasn't a thing just 5 years ago and then it happened. Or a refugee crisis. The first major one happened just 5 years ago and it created serious political divisions within the EU: Western EU vs Central EU and also North vs South. And now Karlsruhe ruling...

Each blow adds to the erosion of a structure. It won't be just one event that will end the EU as we know it but rather a series of consecutive events. The one ending the EU may not be even a major one
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
11 May 2020 #364
It wasn't a thing just 5 years ago and then it happened.

That's simply not true. Brexit was the end of a process that started in 1975, including situations such as the Maastricht Rebels where the treaty in question barely got through parliament.

And you do realise that if the EU ends, Poland will be plunged into an even worse crisis than now? Do you really think a new German-dominated New-EU bloc made up of the richest members are going to be anything but ruthless in their negotiations?
Spike31 3 | 1,610
11 May 2020 #365
treaty in question barely got through parliament

And this time it barely didn't got through and led to Brexit. Barely makes a world of a difference

Well, the current EU is German dominated so the next iteration of federalists EU would be also, so not much of a difference here. Yet, more and more member states want a Europe of nations and not a federation. Even Germany has opted for it with the latest Karlsruhe ruling. I think that the process of erosion and deconstruction of the EU could be steered in desired direction of voluntary economic cooperation between nation states of Europe.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
11 May 2020 #366
The one ending the EU may not be even a major one

Yeah....but how exactly?

In a union consisting of 27 so widely different members there will always be discussions and disagreements...but I don't see the end of it.

Maybe the end of the EURO as it is now (and the EURO has definitely serveral flaws which need a make over)....but the EURO isn't the EU and otherwise the EU is like the UEFA or the IOC or even the European Broadcasting Union (think Eurovision Song Contest)....everybody grumbles and gripes about, but being part of it is better than being out of it (even after getting zero points for all your hard work and money, heh:).

Sure there may be this country or another which will leave for one political reason or another but I really don't see the whole of the EU "end" as you seem to wish, especially as the queue of interested new members is still much longer. I might maybe believe it when I see UEFA or the IOC getting razed to the ground.

But even when that happens...countries will sit together afterwards and build another UEFA or EU, this time better than before...they will at least try!

There are really very few countries who don't need nor want unions to support each other...most of them you don't want to have in your union either!

I think that the process of erosion and deconstruction of the EU could be steered in desired direction of voluntary economic cooperation between nation states of Europe.

That's what the EU is for! :)
KorkiTaczer - | 62
11 May 2020 #367
They basically get their orders daily

I sure hope that you are just a 'useful idiot' and not some lunatic paid by Brejza or yet another 'spin-doctor' like Kamiński. It would be the worst thing they've ever spent taxpayers money on...

PiS are clearly terrified that Duda is going to lose

Sure, against Hołownia... You are clueless as always. I begin to think that you are actually paid by PiS to make the rest of you lot look like a bunch of freak-ass mokeys :P
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
11 May 2020 #368
I sure hope that you are

Ah yes, yet again accusing others of being what you are yourself. Tell us, which state-owned company does Father work for? You can tell us what your quota is - after all, it's hardly a secret that the whole family is supposed to contribute so that Father can show off at Party meetings.

Well, the current EU is German dominated

Nowhere near as much as it would be under a new EU with a focus on wealthy northern members. Poland has nothing to gain from such a scenario and everything to lose, not least because surrounding countries would want nothing to do with a scenario in which Poland dictates things. You've also forgotten that for countries such as Estonia and Croatia, they have no desire to break up the EU or go it alone.

The choice for Poland in such a scenario would be to either accept the rules of the New EU (which would be massively in favour of the wealthier nations) or to go it alone. The UK has at least London and a huge amount of dirty cash, what does Poland have?

I think that the process of erosion and deconstruction of the EU could be steered in

Until you tell the farmers in Eastern Poland that they will no longer get subsidies, but instead, they'll be expected to compete on the open market. Any government proposing to go down this route would face an electoral bloc of around 3m people, perhaps more.

It's also worth looking beyond the headlines regarding the Karlsruhe judgement. What's actually happened is that the ECB now has to justify its actions, and has three months to do so. Germans are masters of realpolitik, and a solution will be found.
Spike31 3 | 1,610
11 May 2020 #369
together afterwards and build another UEFA or EU, this time better than before

That's what I'm counting on. Once this left-leaning, economically ineffective and simply put politically oppressive organization disintegrate we can build a decentralized Europe of nations and not centrally powered organization - with appetite for becoming a federation - operated by neo-marxist generation '68

surrounding countries would want nothing to do with a scenario in which Poland dictates things

You cannot imagine cooperation without dictating the others what to do. You are truly a child of the EU.

Poland is the biggest and strongest member of Visegrad Four group yet is not dictating other member states what to do. Same goes for 3 Seas Innitiative
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
11 May 2020 #370
Once this left-leaning, economically ineffective and simply put politically oppressive organization

The EU is none of those things, but I suppose it's caused by a lack of understanding that it's been dominated by Christian Democrats since the founding. It's easy to throw around terms like "neo-marxist" when you have little understanding of how and why the EU came about.

As is clear, Poland is free to leave. It seems that the vast majority prefer membership though, regardless of other rhetoric.

Poland is the biggest and strongest member of Visegrad Four group yet is not dictating other member states what to do.

Poland already tried once. Poland backed off as soon as the Slovaks and Czechs made it clear that Poland didn't speak for them, nor did they agree with Poland's views on the EU. As for TSI, it's nothing but a talking shop of minor importance. Come back when the TSI countries actually agree to put up the cash for something more than a once-yearly summit.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
11 May 2020 #371
we can build a decentralized Europe of nations

Poland can try to help to build this federation right now (like Germany is preferring a decentralized federation to a centralist super state).

There is no guarantee that the newly build EU will be to your tastes either! Because it's build on compromises, all (okay without the left and right extremists) political leanings need to find a common ground.

When you always stomp with your feet and threaten to leave when things don't go your way you won't be happy in any union whatsoever...

Your best course of action would be to take what you already have (a firm seat at the same table with everybody else) and try to make the EU work for you! You won't get a better chance to do that than from the inside.
Spike31 3 | 1,610
11 May 2020 #372
@BratwurstBoy, that's what you think. Poland doesn't have to accept status quo and be content with suboptimal results.

The new possibilities, which we don't even know about yet, will open in the future. Just like it did with refugee crisis and Brexit. Poland needs to stand firmly by its goal of Europe of nations and the right tools and allies will show up to deliver it. Think about it as a baner under which the other like minded states and groups will gather under.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
11 May 2020 #373
Poland doesn't have to accept status quo and be content with suboptimal results.

No, of course not! Poland could leave and lose the whole power it gets from having the same voting power like...say...Germany or France. I very much doubt Poland would be as influential outside of the EU as inside...

And for the "suboptimal results" only Poland is responsible for them. And frankly, if you can't make it in the EU you won't make it anywhere!

But it is as even you admit...you need a union of some kind to have any form of influence. But your vision of a union is fully compatible with your own political leaning and ideas and values (and only yours) and hence is a dead birth. Also in this new union you will be forced to make compromises...and it isn't set in stone that Poland will be it's top dog either.

This new union of yours only smells of roses because it's a fantasy...the actual existing EU on the other hand is the dirty nitty real smelly thing...it won't get any better!
Torq 32 | 2,999
11 May 2020 #374
I very much doubt Poland would be as influential outside of the EU as inside...

In fragmented Europe Poland's position would be rather bad...

Europe of Nations

...not as bad as Hungary's, but still.
Spike31 3 | 1,610
11 May 2020 #375
And frankly, if you can't make it in the EU you won't make it anywhere!

That's why I want Poland outside of the EU structures because I firmly believe that our country can flourish in a competitive open and global market of free exchange of goods and services.

Something which could not be said about many "old" EU countries which will struggle outside of socialist structures of the EU and addicted to donations and handouts, devilish tools of social engineering.

And that's why I believe it will be much easier to destroy the EU and build a new organization than to refom the current EU.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
11 May 2020 #376
That's why I want Poland outside of the EU structures because I firmly believe that our country can flourish in a competitive open and global market of free exchange of goods and services.

Okay....I believe you. You want the best for Poland! That's a totally worthy goal...

In the end Poles have to decide about that...not me!

But you should stop wanting to destroy the whole EU in the process...because for alot of countries the membership in the EU is the best for their nations. Wanting to destroy it for so many others only to better your own nation is sh'itty and you should not expect any sympathy for that!

Anyhow I believe the EU is to big to fail....it is in need of reforms and probably always will, but these also can only be made with the tempo the many disagreeing members allow.

Because it's NOT a dictatorial super state with a strong (german) Führer!
Spike31 3 | 1,610
11 May 2020 #377
Let's be honest here. The "EU core" is hostile to Poland for various reasons: no to "refugees", conservative values held by the nation, "wrong" political choices and allies etc. The "core" attacks Poland even now when we are still a full member of the organization with the right of veto. It's safe to assume that those political hostilities would not end once Poland leave the EU but will even increase in volume.

I see the act of destroying the EU in its current form as a simple act of geopolitical self-defense.
OP jon357 63 | 15,214
11 May 2020 #378
The "EU core" is hostile to Poland for various reasons

That's roughly the opposite of the truth.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
11 May 2020 #379
I see the act of destroying the EU in its current form as a simple act of geopolitical self-defense.

What self-defense? The fight against the billions of EU funds and the access to the biggest world market with a gazillion of potential customers for polish products?

The brave resistance against the refugees Poland had been forced to take? How many by now?

And how is your alliance building with other conservative EU members coming along? You would need them anyhow after the EU is dead and gone....
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
11 May 2020 #380
And how is your alliance building with other conservative EU members coming along?

Badly.

Poland is marginalised in the current EU and has no real allies. Hungary doesn't count, unless you accept Russian interference.
Spike31 3 | 1,610
11 May 2020 #381
The fight against the billions of EU funds

The EU funds are a tool of social engeering on a large scale. And it is not a "free money" like many people tend to believe since Poland paid a hefty price by enforcing the EU regulations which has led to closing down many companies or ever the whole industries - like sugar refineries. It has also led to deindustrialization of many regions of Poland and imposed a hefty tax on Polish energy industry which is based on coal.

So for each project that was completed with the EU funding there's another one which couldn't be created because of the EU regulations.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
11 May 2020 #382
Poland is marginalised in the current EU and has no real allies

....it could even be said that Poland fully integrated in the EU (also the contrary to what Spike wants) would be much more successful in building alliances, in furthering their causes...playing the diplomatic high game of back rubs (when I rub your back you will rub mine)...networking, influencing...

Meaning Poland could develop into a power player, becoming part of the "core" itself, now that Britain left a gap.

The reasons Spike wants the EU destroyed for for would vanish...Poland could make the EU work for it....but only as fully committed and smart member.

Hmmm....what an interesting conundrum! :)

It has also led to deindustrialization of many regions of Poland and imposed a hefty tax on Polish energy industry which is based on coal.

Now that was a bad example....

There is deindustrialization because of the globalization (jobs and firms leave for cheaper places) and because of modernization (phasing out of coal) and happened everywhere.

Alot of EU funds go into these regions hit worst because of this "Strukturwandel" (structural change), as we Germans call it...just think about the once famous german steel and coal region, the Ruhr Area.

These regions have to rebuild itself now that their main industries are gone, that's happening everywhere.

What in the hell makes you think Poland would master these difficult changes better without the billions of EU funds???
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
11 May 2020 #383
since Poland paid a hefty price by enforcing the EU regulations

The same regulations that allow Polish companies to compete on the open market?

Poland received far more than it has paid to the EU, as witnessed by the economic stagnation of the 1990's followed by the boom from 2004 onwards.

which has led to closing down many companies

Spike, do you realise how many of those companies worked? They were funded by local/provincial/national governments, often as a money pit. They were often dreadful workplaces, with rampant cronyism depending on who the paymaster was. Why are you supporting such businesses as an alleged free marketeer?

Meaning Poland could develop into a power player, becoming part of the "core" itself, now that Britain left a gap.

That was where Poland was headed until PiS won. With Brexit, there's a huge gap for Poland to slide nicely into as a core member, but it looks like that role will go to the Dutch instead. Brawo, PiS!
Tacitus 2 | 1,130
11 May 2020 #384
Poland is marginalised in the current EU and has no real allies.

As you and others have noted, this is not because of the EU, and not even because of Poland, but because of the current government in Warsaw. Poland under PO was on its' way to becoming a key player in the EU. Poland is generally well disposed for becoming a hugely important player in the EU, its geographic position and economic strength make it the obvious choise of leading the Eastern European bloc inside the EU. The EU is in fact well suited for Poland's interests, since it generally strengthens smaller and medium sized member states over large ones like France and Germany (large ones are ofc still more influential than others, but less so then they would be under normal circumstances).

But since the EU is based upon solidarity and cooperation, if one refuses to abide by those principles, he will end up marginalised because he refuses to play by the rules. Which is what PiS is doing. By pointlessly antagonizing the other European countries (Germany by pointless reparation demands, Southern Europe by refusing to take even a symbolic amount of refugees), Poland has wasted its' potential.

Nobody can blame the EU when it is Poland who is prioritizing domestic over foreign policies.
Spike31 3 | 1,610
11 May 2020 #385
There is deindustrialization because of the globalization

Oh really, then how come Germany is the second goods exporter in the world and its economy relies mostly on industrial power? No, it was deindustrialized to eliminate the potential future competition and also to transfer that extra labour force to produce components for German automotive industry. Same thing has happened in Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary.

Germany wanted to transfer Central European economies from potentially competitive to complimentary to German industrial complex. It's the same old Prussian plan for mitteleuropa.

The current Polish government, with alll its flaws, saw that and opted for Anglo-Saxon transatlantic cooperation which will counter-balance German econo-political influence in Poland. The right-wing Konfederacja will take things even further in the future...

Spike, do you realise how many of those companies worked?

Yes, many were obsolete and beyond saving yet there were some, like sugar refineries, that were profitable and doing well after the year 1989. They were killed by a political decision, not by the market, and now many of them are shut down or belong to foreign (German) companies.

Why are you supporting such businesses as an alleged free marketeer?

You can stop with those tactics cause I've mentioned on many occassion here on this forum that I'm a national capitalist who believes - no "believe" is a wrong word here - who is certain that money does have nationality.

And under national capitalism key industries like military, energy and other strategic industries should be controlled by Polish private owners and Polish private companies.
Crow 139 | 8,566
11 May 2020 #386
Poles say a big YES to our European Union

Poles say a big NO to vermin European Union
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
11 May 2020 #387
Oh really, then how come Germany is the second goods exporter in the world and its economy relies mostly on industrial power?

You forget East Germany and the freeze of decades behind the Iron Curtain...we all met the modern world in 1989 and found out our industries weren't competitive anymore...you can't blame the EU for that!

And China is overtaking Germany with their cheap mass production...Germany too lost alot of jobs and companies to cheap and cheaper Asia. The famous german automobile industry took heavy blows in the recent years...add to hat the phasing out of fossiles and the structural changes had already be enormous and will continue to do so...also for Germany. Our future as industrial powerhouse is in no way secured or granted!

We all have to reinvent ourselves...the EU isn't to blame for any of it, but it can help!
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
12 May 2020 #388
It's the same old Prussian plan for mitteleuropa.

PS: Instead to live in the past and fearing the resurgence of old Prussia you should really look further to the East for the new danger.

And now tell me, who would stand a better chance against this chinese communist economic juggernaut? A European Union? Or Poland alone (or Germany alone for that matter)?
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,550
12 May 2020 #389
Poland alone since it would not be constrained by the EUs diktats and can do whatever it pleases.
Tacitus 2 | 1,130
12 May 2020 #390
Instead of imaginary diktats from Bruessels it would be subject of very real ones from Russia, China and the USA.


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