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Poland's post-election political scene


delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
16 May 2016 #2,011
The conservative traditions and customs stay with people that they were raised with, even if they've stopped going to church - that's what matters.

Not really. The Church has always been considerably behind people's attitudes - for instance, young Poles in the early 1980's loved JPII, but they almost completely ignored his teachings on sexual morality.
AdrianK9 6 | 369
16 May 2016 #2,012
So I listen to a Polish radio station quite often - 92.7FM. It's a mix of talk, music, etc. during the weekdays. On Saturdays, they play more dance and techno music. The radio station's demographic is immigrant Poles.

On Sundays however this station turns into English and is called Democracy Now which is an LGBT station. Yesterday when I got into my car, the station was preset to 92.7 and the hosts were discussing the tranny bathroom issue. Since I like to hear both sides of the argument, I continue to listen to them.They made a few points:

1) We shouldn't live in a society where a person with a condition (medical condition?) should be ashamed.
2) It's not a big deal - everyone goes to the bathroom
3) More than likely, a person has already shared a bathroom with an LGBT person with nothing happening at some point in their lives.

I can understand that. However, they fail to point out a few things.

1. 99%+ of society isn't LGBT. The American Psychiatric Association deems that transexualism is a mental illness. If a person is dead set on using the bathroom with the gender they identify with, they should at the very least have the proper medical paperwork that states that individual truly feels like a man/woman. This would reduce incidents of perverts simply thinking 'well I'll use the girls bathroom today' because they feel like it and think they might get a peep show out of it. This isn't the case though - Obama just announced that across the US, a student can use any bathroom that he/she chooses regardless of birth certificate - fine, but then at least have medical paperwork proving that this person has this identity crisis.

2. Exactly - it isn't a big deal. So why are trannies making it a big deal? Throughout history, people have been going to men's or women's bathroom according to their sex - why is it suddenly in the past 2 years that now there's an issue on whether a man has to go to a man's bathroom and vice versa?

If it isn't such a big deal, then you would go to whatever bathroom corresponds to the gender you were born with.

3. True. I'm sure at some point in my life I've shared a bathroom with an LGBT person and not even known about and nothing came out of it. However, that doesn't excuse the 5 cases where individuals took advantage of this stupid policy and used it for perverted means like filming in changing rooms, a rape in a bathroom, etc. Also, it doesn't mean that young children should have to go to a bathroom and see someone dressed in drag and have to be confused at what's going on.

In Poland it's very similar - only thankfully unlike the US the scale is more tipped in the conservatives' favor. Even if a person is a twice a year churchgoing Catholic in Poland, chances are they still hold anti gay marraige and anti non-white immigration sentiments according to the polls i have posted.

There is a small group of very very liberal Poles who want gay marriage, gay adoption, a bunch of Muslims and other non white immigrants to come in, and Poland to be a multicultural liberal society like western Europe or the US. However, most Poles do not want a Poland like this - and that doesn't change much whether PiS or PO is in charge. People were just as islamaphobic with PO as with PiS - maybe a bit more so now but they still were very anti Muslim migrant even during PO.
jon357 66 | 17,068
16 May 2016 #2,013
These non church-going Polish youth though aren't picking up LGBT banners instead and demonstrating for gay marriage.

Strange you've mentioned that issue. It is only one of many areas in which PiS are getting things wrong. The collapsing economy, the interference with the constitutional system and worsening relations with friendly states are more significant.

And people both old and young are staying away from religion in Poland in droves - it seems the conservative, traditionalist and nationalistic paradigm in Poland appeals less and less.
Ironside 50 | 10,939
16 May 2016 #2,014
Certainly, but as reported in the linked story the priest acts with no detectable compassion or Christian (or human!) feelings. A very poor example, he sets.

Thank you for your concern. I think you should rise that issue in your parish and maybe talk it over with your priest. I wasn't aware that you are so deeply religious, active and caring Catholic. People like you're needed!

a whole generation who feel hostile to the church

Hmm what that sound? Wait is something dripping on a flat surface? jon are you salivating on you keyboard?
AdrianK9 6 | 369
16 May 2016 #2,015
And people both old and young are staying away from religion in Poland in droves.

According to the CIA Factbook, as of 2015 - Catholic 87.2% (includes Roman Catholic 86.9% and Greek Catholic, Armenian Catholic, and Byzantine-Slavic Catholic .3%)

You're making statements again that are totally different from reality. The vast majority of Poles identify as Roman Catholic. Perhaps all generations in modern day Poland are going to church less and less, but that doesn't mean that they no identify as Catholic or switched to atheist/agnosticism like in Czechy where 30%+ of the population is athiest. The Catholic church is not as strong as it use to be in Poland but it still nonetheless has a huge influence on politics and other aspects of Poland. Poles of all generations may not follow Catholic doctrines like no sex before marriage, go to church less and less frequently, etc. but nonetheless identify as Catholic.

it seems the conservative, traditionalist and nationalistic paradigm in Poland appeals less and less.

Quite the opposite - if anything these paradigms are growing. If Poles didn't want a conservative, traditionalist, nationalist government then they wouldn't have elected PiS. Poland is one of more homogeneous conservative and xenophobic countries in the EU - most Poles do not care for increasing diversity in their own country, we don't want a multi kulti society like France or England.

Due to the migrant crisis and the Islamic terrorists in western Europe, Poles have become more conservative, traditionalist and especially nationalistic. Poles welcomed the EU and the west with open arms in the 90's and 2000's after communism because they wanted Poland's economy to grow and become competitive globally. The EU gave Poland billions of dollars so of course they wanted to be on good terms. However, Poland essentially traded away political power in this arrangement. Poles embraced the free market approach to economics of democratic systems. However, they did not wish to change their customs and alter their gay marriage laws and be forced to accept migrants. Poland, along with the rest of the Visegard 4, is resisting the EU forcing them to take migrants. Even PO fought against taking in migrants until Brussels put so much pressure on them (I'm guessing they threatened to cut Poland's funding) that they eventually agreed to a few thousand. Even the more far right groups have become way more popular because they are very vocal with opposing Muslim migrants coming into Poland. The average Pole wants nothing to do with the Muslim migrants - according to one CBOS poll, only about 20% of people support taking in refugees, regardless of origin while according to the University of Warsaw's study - 70% of Poles do not want non-whites living in their country. The conservative, traditionalist, and nationalist paradigm is far stronger and more popular than the western liberal paradigm - gay marriage, open immigration, atheism, etc. A Chechen family even reported how its impossible for her to put the children in school since the schools refuse to take them.

The only thing that has changed where the Poles weren't conservative, xenophobic, nationalistic, etc. is the fact that the majority of Poles accepted and welcome the Ukrainians - whether they were economic migrants just trying to make a bit of money in Poland or the refugees from the east. Aside from that, Poland and the majority of Poles are pretty conservative and Catholic. They may not be far right nationalists, but patriotism and love for one's country, religion, language and traditions. These are things that Poles kept alive even under partitions and foreign rule. Bog, Honor, Ojczyzna is what the majority of Poles believe in - that has not gone down and if anything has increased.
Harry
16 May 2016 #2,016
The vast majority of Poles identify as Roman Catholic.

Yes, but the vast majority of them don't bother doing the very minimum required from the faithful by the Roman Catholic church.

BTW, I didn't bother reading further into your post than that quote. And neither did anybody else.
Wulkan - | 3,250
16 May 2016 #2,017
BTW, I didn't bother reading further into your post than that quote

Or you did but didn't have any argument so lets just pretend you didn't read it.
AdrianK9 6 | 369
16 May 2016 #2,018
vast majority of them don't bother doing the very minimum required from the faithful by the Roman Catholic church.

That does not change that they still identify as Catholic.... there are plenty of trannies that don't bother doing the very minimum to change their gender yet I don't see you giving them flak for 'identifying with another gender' or 'not doing the very minimum'

What exactly is the 'very minimum required? Who decides it? There's no scale in the Roman Catholic church, this isn't scientology. You're not a beginner Catholic, an advanced Catholic - you are either Catholic or you're not it's simple. The minimum requirement of being Catholic would be baptism to most adherents of the faith. Typically, once you're baptized you enter the Roman Catholic church.

The vast majority of Poles are Roman Catholics no matter how you look at it though - whether they go to church or not. Millions of Poles won't go to church for 5 months in a row but you can bet they'll celebrate Wigilia even if they're pretty secular. Would you consider those people as not meeting the minimum requirements?

Whether you take a 90% survery from one source, 80% from another, 70% from a third - all of them are going to show you that the majority of people in Poland are Roman Catholic.

According to the Ministry of Foreigns Affairs of the Republic of Poland, 95% of Poles belong to the Roman Catholic Church - a survey based the number of adherents on the number of infants baptized. Most Catholics would say that the minimum is believing that Jesus is the Son of God, believing in God, believing that Mary was a virgin, and other things written in the Nicene Creed. I would argue those beliefs are the bare minimum - nowhere does it say in the Nicene Creed that you have to go to church every Sunday. Formally, baptism is what makes you a Catholic. A study by the Catholic Church revealed that from 2003 to 2014 mass attendance has declined by 2 million people and that around 40% of the population attend Church regularly - a very high number considering how lifestyle has now revolved around electronics and such - not going to church. However, during that time period over 2 million left Poland for Germany, UK, US, etc.

I am not arguing that Church attendance hasn't gone down - it certainly has. Nonetheless, the vast majority of people in Poland identify as Roman Catholic - that is their faith. According to this study (page 212) - there's 33.39 million baptized as of 2011 - stat.gov.pl/cps/rde/xbcr/gus/RS_rocznik_statystyczny_rp_2012.pdf

This is a 900 page article that describes in detail Polish society 5-6 years ago in every aspect - demographics, costs of living, labor force details, pollution, everything you can think of. If you read through this you will see that Poland is a very homogeneous society - most of the people that live in Poland are Roman Catholic Poles - and they're by far the vast majority.... not 55% or something but rather 80-90%+ Even Belarus is more diverse than Poland in terms of demographics and religion.

The Roman Catholic church, although their power has declined, is still nonetheless extremely important and powerful. For example, 50,000 showed up to see and hear Fr. Miedlak's anti-Islam speech...

Here's an except from his speech:

"Leftist and Islamic aggression aimed at everything Christian and national makes us very afraid. ... But we're also afraid that our fear will turn into hatred. And we, as Christians, cannot let this happen. That's why we, the Christians, want dialogue. But no one wants to talk to us, instead..."

So true...
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
16 May 2016 #2,019
Fr. Miedlak

Why are you quoting someone who is in such deep trouble with the Church that he's received a public warning to shut his mouth or else?

He's certainly not representative of the RCC in the slightest. He's very much on the fringe of the RCC, and many of his colleagues in Wrocław hate his guts for the damage that he did to them.

As for the numbers of Catholics, those of us living in Poland know the reality - that a lot of it is merely based on peer pressure, for instance, the young couple that go to Church simply to keep Babcia quiet even though they do nothing else. Nothing different to how Spain and Ireland were in the 1970's.
AdrianK9 6 | 369
16 May 2016 #2,020
I am pointing out that a Catholic priest drew such a large crowd... whether it's Miedlak or JPII - the point is the Church is very influential in Poland because most Poles identify as Roman Catholic. Yes, it's power declined but nonetheless they remain one of the more influential (perhaps the most influential in many respects) institution in Poland.

Yes, many priests are upset that he says things like that because the church's official stance is to be united with the refugees and help them out. However, most Poles do not agree with this and they don't want migrants in Poland.

One can be against a church doctrine and still identify as a Catholic - in fact, most do. 100% of Catholics do not follow 100% of what the church says. If so, then there'd never be a pregnancy outside of marraige.
dolnoslask 6 | 3,541
16 May 2016 #2,021
Christians are afraid today with good reason, there are those who will slaughter us for practicing our faith,

There are also many other minorities who are being persecuted and killed because of their beliefs and lifestyle choices.

But when we stand against those who preach and practice murder upon to us we are called racists.
chlopek2
16 May 2016 #2,022
1)Oil
2)Arms
3)Narcotics

These are the top three hard cash generators. To make Oil cheap regions have to be our own i.e. our territory (the West) or if there are in the rest of the world, those regions must be destabilised in order for us (the West) to exploit them to the maximum.

A) destroy the country through war, ideally civil war (sell everyone our weapons). Liberate said country by bombing it back to the stone age.

B) offer destroyed country/region 'Development Aid", to employ our (the West) companies to rebuild infrastructure, destroyed region/country has to sell their oil to us on our terms and use said monies to pay us (the West) to rebuild their countries/region.

C) Encourage the supply and development of opium, cocaine and illegal synthetic labs in the most poor regions, this serves
Four key purposes>
1. Destabilise country/region, hinder economic development, terrorise native population.
2.Produce vasts amount of hard currency, which neccesitates laundering and spending, a pool of dirty cash to pay for dirty wars.
3. In our own domestic markets, the drug supply helps, destabilise our proletariat from mobilising, creates vast amount of employmet for 'respectable people' i.e prisons, police, courts, social services etc etc etc.

4.A tool to destabilise other countries. Both Russia and Iran are suffering an epidemic wave of Heroin abuse, from the fields of Afghanistan, which we (the West) oversee.

Once the indigenous populations are decimated, displaced, disorientated make them 'Thanks Us', for saving them and force our Ikea one size fits all Western Liberalism which trumps all other value systems and let the subdued, defeated proletariat hold 'Free elections' in New Democratic societies, wear Gap, eat McDonalds, watch UK premier league football and have mobile phones, Get connected. Hook these countries into the international trade systems and business as usual, exploit them to the maximum.

So given the above, all currency movements are manipulated. Currency is a tool.

More importantly how does this Theory encompass Poland. Well Poland was one of those countries Liberated with the fall of the Soviet Union, rebuilt with our the West money in collaboration with elements of the previous administrations and their Network, with fresh blood from the peoples movements who had "overthrown" the previous Communist Overlords.

Replaced with American, German, French, Russian, British and other Western Nation's businesses in the driving seat.

This in indisputable.

P.O represent this interest group, it extols their "shared" Western cultural values, with a hint of Polishness and Church.
P.O wanna and have fully signed up to the Wests party and excelled, a prize Uncle Tom and those in society who have joined the band wagon and or emigrated and integrated represent in general that part of Polish society which just wants an easy life and is cool with Western liberalism and the general star of affairs.

P.I.S on the other hand, are hard line Nationalist Catholics, for whom Poland is a Christ Among Nations, whose identity is born out of sufferance, it is the true Proletariat Intelligencia and espouse a very socialist themed economic system and culturally and religiously devoted to the Hard right elements in the National Catholic Church. They are idealists with a vision of resurrecting like the messiah to lead the fight against their Holy enemies the Protestant Germans, Islamic Turks and Arabs and the Russian Orthodox Slavs.
Harry
16 May 2016 #2,023
you did but didn't have any argument so lets just pretend you didn't read it.

Why bother reading further than the first few lines when one can shoot a post down with just those lines? Oh, sorry, I forgot you're never able to shoot down any of my posts.

there are plenty of trannies that don't bother doing the very minimum to change their gender yet I don't see you giving them flak for 'identifying with another gender' or 'not doing the very minimum'

Read more: you'll see I gave one of your fellow Americans plenty of flak for hiding so deep in the wardrobe he's getting bummed by Aslan.

What exactly is the 'very minimum required? Who decides it?

Those would be referred to as the Precepts of the Catholic Church and they are decided by the Roman Catholic church. They are the six minimums the RCC requires of the faithful and the first of them is: You shall attend Mass on Sundays and on holy days of obligation.

The vast majority of Poles are Roman Catholics no matter how you look at it though - whether they go to church or not.

They can claim to be Zulus if they want to, won't change the fact they don't meet the requirements for being a Zulu any more than they meet the requirements for being a Roman Catholic.

BTW, I didn't bother reading any further in your post. Maybe you should think about hiding the factual and intellectual failures in the last 75% of your posts?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
16 May 2016 #2,024
both old and young are staying away

But Poles in general are staying away from the pervert-gender ideology in droves and thank God for that! The average Poles correctly regards sexual deviants as either harmless crackpots or potentially danerous predators. Whetehr or not you, Biedroń, Grodzka and a handful of other weirdos wish that weren't the case.
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
16 May 2016 #2,025
I didn't bother reading any further in your post.

I enjoy the topic paragraph at the END of Adrian's posts :) I too don't bother with the rest.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
16 May 2016 #2,026
a whole generation who feel hostile to the church

Wishful thinking! Ever try doing a reconnaissance run of churches on Sunday? It may be an eye-opening experience. And not in the countryside but in Warsaw, Kraków. Poznań, Lublin, etc.

don't bother doing the very minimum required

You mstu have copy-pasted this. You haev used that lame argument 245 or is it 489 tienms alreaedy. What do you knwo baout the Church anyway. YOur ilk belong to the wife-killer's denomiantion, the Church of England.
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
16 May 2016 #2,027
you, Biedroń, Grodzka and a handful of other weirdos wish that weren't the case.

Still - categorisation. And this thread is about religion. Me mam was a catholic.
Her mantra was "Live and let live," and damn right she was too.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
16 May 2016 #2,028
Maybe you should think about hiding the factual and intellectual failures in the last 75% of your posts?

He did. He started quoting that idiot priest from Wrocław who was told quite publicly to shut the hell up or else.

Pro-ONR, pro-Russia... everything that Poland isn't, really ;)
AdrianK9 6 | 369
16 May 2016 #2,029
Maybe you should think about hiding the factual and intellectual failures in the last 75% of your posts?

Unlike you, I use facts, statistics, and reliable sources...

On the other hand, you use a red herring like the few Muslims in Poland or the tiny LGBT community to claim that Poland is this liberal progressive country, which it isn't.

Unlike you, I have used numbers and percentages to show that the vast majority of Poles are baptized Catholics - to most Catholics that would mean that you are also a Catholic. You however, do not - you use no sources nor any numbers to back up your claims.Show me some statistics or reliable sources that prove that Poland is moving away from a conservative and nationalist paradigm? You can't because there aren't any! In fact, nearly every major media outlet and even famous singers like Bono calls Poland a 'hyper-nationalistic,' homophobic, xenophobic, anti-Muslim country. Google 'Poland views on Muslims' 'Poland views on gays' or anything like that and you will find that Polish society is against the multi-kulti, pro-Islam, pro-diversity of the west.

Only an idiot would argue that Poland is not a Catholic conservative country... Maybe in you circle of gay liberal english teachers who failed back home in the west, but that doesn't represent the majority of POLISH society.

And this thread is about religion

No it's not... it's about Poland's post-election political scene...

Maybe if you libs bothered to do some more reading you would've come to that realization. We are discussing religion only because said

it seems the conservative, traditionalist and nationalistic paradigm in Poland appeals less and less.

which clearly isn't true. In fact, Polish society is becoming increasingly vocal and resistant to the things that the EU and the west are pushing - especially a diverse society, Muslim migrants, etc. Poles do not want it. Unlike jon, I can actually cite sources - for example, again, University of Warsaw stated that 70% of Poles do not want non-whites living in their country.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
16 May 2016 #2,030
'not doing the very minimum'

One has to hand it to Grodzka, no matter what one thinks of trannyism. At least Bejgowski-turned-Grodzka had the courage of hisd/her convicitons and the guts to go to Thailand for a chop job. Now Obama wants anyone to use any loo anywhere claiming to identify with a gender otehr than theri own. You are undoutebdly in favour of such "progressive" thinking, eh?
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
16 May 2016 #2,031
70% of Poles do not want non-whites living in their country.

The UK didn't "want" a million Poles living in theirs'. What a country wants and what it gets in a global village are two different things. If a million British people of Caribbean origin decided to up sticks and move to Warsaw tomorrow what would you propose should be done to stop them doing so?
dolnoslask 6 | 3,541
16 May 2016 #2,032
"British people of Caribbean origin decided to up sticks and move to Warsaw " why would a successful group of migrants to the UK want to do that, they have secure employment and family roots in the UK, on the other hand I see plenty of indigenous low achieving UK citizens moving to Poland for a more affordable lifestyle fueled and paid for by the poles hunger to learn English , so that the poles can reap the opportunities and cash to be earned in the UK

Ironic really.
jon357 66 | 17,068
16 May 2016 #2,033
Catholic 87.2%

You fail to get the point of course. And also fail to address the fact that religion in Poland is declining at a massive rate.

If Poles didn't want a conservative, traditionalist, nationalist government then they wouldn't have elected PiS.

18% voted for them, and most people in Poland aren't 'bog, honor, ojczyzna' clowns and never have been.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
16 May 2016 #2,034
18% voted for them, and most people in Poland aren't 'bog, honor, ojczyzna' clowns and never have been.

Indeed. Adrian seems to mistake American style politics where normally close to 50% is required to win elections with the Polish system that resulted in nearly 20% of votes being disqualified and the Party winning a majority with not even close to 40% of the total vote.
jon357 66 | 17,068
16 May 2016 #2,035
Adrian seems to mistake

We aren't exactly talking about the top of the gene pool here, nor even anyone remotely emotionally stable.
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
16 May 2016 #2,036
I see plenty of indigenous low achieving UK citizens moving to Poland for a more affordable lifestyle fueled and paid for by the poles hunger to learn English

I think you will find that the only TEFL and institutional posts teaching English are for qualified graduates, and very well experienced ones at that. If your ability to analyse and explain succinctly is lacking, and you are not creative at moving the learner from controlled to free practice , then you are going to have problems paying the rent.

If you are stating that TEFL teachers are not high earners or even "middle-class", you generally would be right:) Of course some are published, or branch off, as I have, into ESP. But there are compensations Dolno. I choose who to work with, not the other way round:)
Harry
17 May 2016 #2,037
you use no sources nor any numbers to back up your claims.

I do and I can. Would the Catholic Statistical Institute do you? I quote their data, flawed as it is, quite often.

And please answer the question in the first five lines of your next post: nobody else reads all your posts and I'm damned if I'm going to.
jon357 66 | 17,068
17 May 2016 #2,038
And when six former defence ministers sign an open letter to the PiS incumbent (yes,the same nutcase that had keys cut for the NATO office in the middle of the night) to quit his post the alarm bells that have been ringing since PiS crept into office suddenly become louder...
Ironside 50 | 10,939
17 May 2016 #2,039
And when six former defence ministers sign an open letter

Oh? another fallacy. ~What does it matter dozen or a score?
AdrianK9 6 | 369
17 May 2016 #2,040
If a million British people of Caribbean origin decided to up sticks and move to Warsaw tomorrow what would you propose should be done to stop them doing so?

That is for politicians, border control and customs to decide.

nd also fail to address the fact that religion in Poland is declining at a massive rate.

Doesn't change the fact that most people still abide by their Roman Catholic roots. Yes, church attendance may be down but that doesn't mean that Christianity is going to disappear from Poland anytime soon.

We aren't exactly talking about the top of the gene pool here, nor even anyone remotely emotionally stable.

And this isn't abuse? If everyone believed in your mongrelization of cultures, there wouldn't be a Christian Poland. In your dreams - Poland was, is, and will be a Roman Catholic county. Church attendance might be down but that doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of Poles follow Roman Catholic traditions and baptize their children.

Yes Dougpol, what the citizens want and get are often two different things. However, Jon and harry are arguing that the 'conservative, nationalistic, traditional' paradigm isn't working in Poland when based on recent events - those types of sentiments are actually increasing - especially as Polish citizens and Polish government alike stand up to the EU forcing them to accept migrants. Far right parties and anti-Muslim demonstrations are attracting more and more people - not in Poland only but even in Germany too - the AfD party has been growing in popularity quite a bit.

Sorry, jon and harry - but neither Poles nor the Polish government want Muslims or African migrants or gay marraige in Poland. That is the reality.

According to one CBOS poll, only about 20% of people support taking in refugees, regardless of origin while according to the University of Warsaw's study - 70% of Poles do not want non-whites living in their country. The conservative, traditionalist, and nationalist paradigm is far stronger and more popular than the western liberal paradigm - gay marriage, open immigration, atheism, etc. A Chechen family even reported how its impossible for her to put the children in school since the schools refuse to take them. That is the kind of numbers I like to see.

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