Poland's indecent junk capitalism?

@Dougpol: Poles are also used to be so passive that they often put up with BS that would not be put up with elsewhere.

Do people complain about that ZUS nonsense? Of course, no!

I personally hate people acting like stupid sheep.

Well, not so much - obligatory contributions are just short of 1,100zl. The extra 200zl is optional.


It all goes back to political realities - KRUS is a huge money sink and should be abolished (and was only ever introduced in order to bribe rural farming morons to support the government rather than the SLD), but almost every government relies on the PSL vote in some way and so we have the current situation. Add that to the fact that a lot of people were bribed during Communist times with early retirement, and you've got a funding gap that can only be made up by screwing the small business owners.

Another thing that's fundamentally unfair - why is it that someone can have a company worth several million and only pay 1100, while the small shop owner has to pay the same?


The problem seems to be a lack of organisation - not all business owners are bothered by ZUS (let's say you earn 10,000zl gross a month - 1100zl means a social security rate is 11%, which is nothing), but they're bothered by other things such as being forced to use a kasa fiskalna, etc etc.

@Delph; I know a lot of those "company owners" who barely make 3,000 ZL a month and therefore they cannot pay ZUS. Not everybody is a big Tycoon in Poland ;)

A lot of those "entrepreneurs" don't even earn the salt for their soup but it's a way for the Government not to count them among the unemployed.

Yep, it's exactly the problem. It's so fundamentally unfair to expect them to pay 30%+ in compulsory taxation.

If someone is bright enough to open a company, then they should be able to take responsibility for their own pension payments. The fact that Poles might choose to spend everything rather than saving is their problem - make them sign a very clear document saying that if they choose not to save, then they will have nothing in their retirement and the state won't help them. Allow pension contributions to be tax-deductible (like at present) and everything will be fine.

Talking sense as usual I see Delph - but the government couldn't possibly countenance cutting back on the state bureaucracy.
Half their families are employed as nepotistic ZUS governing bodies and management.

It's the classic case of having to justify their existence, so more and more nonsense is created in order to justify it.

I'm personally of the opinion that the biggest mistake was not to draw a line in 1990 and say that any pension contributions made between 1947 and 1990 would no longer be recognised, or that they would only be counted at the black market value and not the actual numeric value. It's utter nonsense that the pre-1989 złoty was worth far less than the PRL claimed it to be worth, yet ZUS still recognises those contributions on the actual numeric amount. We're essentially massively subsidising pensioners as a result.

Eh...? And then, it would be the lefists exactly like you, Delphy, that would be crying crocodile tears, baaaaawing that letting these idiots to starve is such an inhumane thing to do.

This is the key to it. The welfare state though needs massive support just to provide the minimum for a civilised society.

The problem here is that a promise was made to the workers who largely kept their part. Without which there would have had to be a lot more lines drawn in 1990.

Harry wrote:

With careful timing of two children and a friendly doctor, it's perfectly possible for a woman to take five years off on full salary. That's one of the reasons ZUS is so stupidly high.

The old, worn-out story with gendered connotations of the welfare queen playing with her children against the system and at last overpowering it. Goebbels would be ashamed to tell such a lie, but apparently not you.

doctors have been for many years strictly controlled in Poland. I used know a doctor in Katowice who sold sick leaves (it was 10 ZL per day). It was in the late 1990 but of course he can no longer.

This went on much longer than that.

I know one who gave her (entirely untrained and unqualified) sister a signed and stamped prescription pads so she could sell prescriptions for antibiotics for less than the cost of a doctor's visit. This was in Warsaw and after 2000.

There are some doctors even now in Poland who can and will do almost anything for money. Scary that such people are allowed to practise medicine elsewhere in the EU.

@Jon: it could be! I mentioned that doctor because I know him. Even at the time, 10 ZL per day was not expensive.

Something else that cracked me up at that time was that we could go to a doctor's and ask for prescriptions for .... someone else. lol. My husband and I often did it. I doubt it's still possible now but at the time it was ok (at least with private doctors).

@Jon: the problem is not only in Poland but everywhere.

The problem is also with dentists who are first of all business people. I hate going (this morning I need to make an appointment) because almost every time, I hear "you need x and y" and I end up paying a lot. With some dentists, it seems that it is never finished and of course everything they offer costs fortunes. I'm shoked by Polish dentists' business approach.

Another thing that cracks me up in Poland is that they do have promotions. Twice I got promotions on blood tests because at the time there were promotions of what I had to have tested....

If only that were so. I have been in the position of being offered priority treatment (queue jumping) in return for payment. It was corruption, pure and simple, and I know lots of people who have similar stories. There have been one or two stings by TV but it still goes on.

@Roger: how much did you pay? Of course it's terrible but I would do it too if needed...

I think I've told this story on here before, but here it is. A few years ago I needed a minor nose operation (excess turbinate). The doctor, no doubt sensing that I wasn't poor, invited me to his private consulting room to see if he could help me get it done quicker. This was just a ruse to get money. I went to the appointed place in town (a room without any medical equipment), where he looked up my nose for two seconds and said that he could move me up the list. I, and 22 other people, had paid the receptionist 70PLN for, on average a four-minute 'consultation'. That's 1610PLN for a couple of hours' 'work'. When he told me I'd have to spend three days in hospital, I said that I couldn't spare that time, being at that time wholly self-employed. OK, he said, I can do it at my private clinic. Which is what happened. I paid 900PLN and the procedure took under five minutes.

That's 1610PLN for a couple of hours' 'work'
You think that's expensive dude????LOL.Try $6500 for 1 h in emergency room.

How about 2 mile ride in an ambulance for $1150?You don't know what "expensive" means!

Free in Poland, fortunately - although some medical professionals are rapacious the basic standards of a civilised society like socialised healthcare still apply.

We Cans invest they enjoy ;)

Trucker, in Europe we have moved on a bit from dog eat dog capitalism.

This is because of the idiocy of the NFZ not paying for hospital stays less than 3 days. It's absurd, and I can't figure out why they're doing it, especially for small routine operations.

Sadly, so few do.

Watching capitalism fall so spectacularly is a sad thing.

Yes, I share your sadness and so do the Norwegians, the Danes, and the Swedes. Go there and tell them about the joys of other systems. Start with Cuba.

Three countries doing very well indeed.

And somehow, they manage to supply power to the whole country.