Poland and Germany should unite, says Lech Walesa

when Slavs win they would write their history. Soon to be, very soon

:)

I envy your optimism and dedication... ;)

Crow, you can keep lying about it as much as you want, but the simple fact is that Poles joined together with Germans to fight against Serbs.

You're talking about something else. There was no popular movement to unite all Germanic-speaking nations.

Not amongst the mainstream population, McDouche! However there always crops up some adjit-prop fringe group which asserts its insane desire to re-annex fomer "Prussia" with the present German republicLOL

No, nothing apart from National Socialism.

i never denied power of EU, did i

I was referring to the previous poster's claim about there being a movement during the fall of the Berlin Wall.

They are already united. It's called the EU.

No need for more then that, God knows.

I wonder IF after their Russian romance failed would they be considering to have an real alliance with Poland?

As @PlasticPole 2013 wrote they are already united...in the EU and now much more economically united than 2013.

This shocked me.

A verdict is expected in the trial of a former officer in the East German secret police who stands accused of the murder of a Polish firefighter at a Berlin border crossing 50 years ago.

Martin Naumann, now 80, is accused of shooting Czesław Kukuczka in the back at close range on 29 March 1974 as Kukuczka walked towards the last in a series of control posts at a transit area in the divided city, having been told he had a free pass to escape to West Berlin.

theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/14/trial-former-stasi-officer-martin-naumann-1974-berlin-shooting-czeslaw-kukuczka

Hard to understand why the trial is in Germany rather than Poland.

Trials almost always take place where the alleged crime was committed.

True, however the case now is happening as a result of a EAW from Poland who do prefer to try some cases themselves.

Germany's BILD made it to its headline now....

bild.de/regional/berlin/prozess-in-berlin-zehn-jahre-haft-fuer-stasi-mord-von-1974-670cd17a1970835c9d86110c

Google translation:

Berlin - Around 50 years after a fatal shot at the former GDR border crossing at Friedrichstrasse station, former Stasi officer Manfred N. (80) has been sentenced to ten years in prison.

The Berlin Regional Court found the 80-year-old man from Leipzig guilty of murdering the Polish victim. The defendant's defense attorney had called for an acquittal. It has not been proven that her client was the shooter, said attorney Andrea Liebscher.

The Berlin public prosecutor's office had requested twelve years in prison. The verdict is not final.....

www-bild-de.translate.goog/regional/berlin/prozess-in-berlin-zehn-jahre-haft-fuer-stasi-mord-von-1974-670cd17a1970835c9d86110c?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Probably as much as it should be given his age. He'll do less than that probably, perhaps in a prison hospital.

I wonder about that though.....


Hasn't it????

I'm pretty sure it has. They tried to dispose of the records however they were found by a Polish researcher.

Yeah....otherwise he wouldn't hadn't gotten 10 years....it was known that the STASI tried to destroy every and all proof they got their dirty hands on...

Authoritarian regimes tend to do that. You don't need me to tell you though that Germany is strong on paperwork and maybe there was just so much that a lot slipped through the net.

@jon357


That is how jurisdiction works. The crime happened in Germany, the culprit was German. Not to mention the connection to the service of a (former) German state. Anything else would be highly unusual.

@Bratwurst Boy


Not that it really matters given his age. But the culprit was fortunate that the crime happened in the GDR, and hence was tried according to GDR sentencing guide lines. In the FRG, murder carried/ still carries a mandatory life sentence, whereas in the GDR one could get away with 10 years. Rather bizarre considering the otherwise brutal nature of the regime if you ask me.

That depends; some countries (Belgium for example) claim jurisdiction beyond their territory.


What's wrong with 'unusual'? After all, it was a pretty 'unusual' crime. What is truly unusual is that he lived peacefully in Germany for decades and that it took a Polish journalist's research and an EAW from Poland's courts before the German state acted.


It is a bit, though in the UK we have three legal systems and there are sometimes conflicts too.

IMO, 10 years is a sufficient sentence, particularly for someone his age; longer than that would just be revenge.

I do wish you wouldn't delete posters' names from your quotes. Your explanation that it happens automatically is a lie, unless you're using software that nobody else in the world has. That or you're posting as part of a job, and it's policy...

Definitely! *nods*


Still....not a real consolation fo the victims family...even as you can here also say that many won't be alive anymore.

But where do you draw the line for a just judgement? The age of the criminal? How much time has passed?

@jon357


Sure. And there are crimes which according to international law are so heinous that jurisdiction applies universal, like crimes against humanity/genocide. Hence the trials against the IS and former Assaad loyalists in Germany. But claiming jurisdiction is one thing, whether the country in which the culprit lives extradites, is another. You need special arguments for an extradition, which weren't fullfilled.


Not necessarily. Just a consequence of the circumstances. The crime happened 20 years before there was even a chance to prosecute him. By that time, any crime but murder would have passed the statute of limitation. Which is where the difficulty in this trial was, since the circumstances could support manslaughter. Without the new found witnesses, something the prosecution had initially no knowledge, a conviction would probably not have succeesed.

Like this.


It's an EAW, despite Germany's rather 'hinterfotzig' interpretation of their law which deliberately uses legalistic and bureacratic culture to frustrate things they expect others to follow.


So legalistic obstacles; shameful that it took action by Poland for anything to happen.

Yeah....that becomes some thing of a feature of our gov....next good example the european migrant policy....I can so understand when foreigners are fed up with us....if it's any consolation, many Germans are too!

Maybe Walesa was right....we should unite, just only under polish say! 🤓 *runs*

AFAIK, it's the "Basic Law" that's set in stone.

One feature of the British system (which the EU hated and nobody else can really get their heads around) is that if there's a law that isn't fit for purpose in a particular situation, the monarch and His advisors can issue an "Order in Council" to temporarily negate it. They do that sometimes, one reason that we handled Covid better than the rest of Europe and came out of it stronger. The Orders are used sparingly though, for the sake of democracy.


Same for all of us, BB, same for us all. We're used to it, and I think you guys are too. It's quite fun not to be liked while being secretly envied by everyone else.

Now thats an interesting thought....changing/adapting one or two of these age old iron laws and making them fit for our time!

There will be Civil War over this....

@jon357


Not others, just those in German courts. You can not prosecute someone in Germany if his crime has passed the statute of limitations in Germany.

Same goes for other countries.

This can go both ways. If the German who is suspected of the murder of the little girl in Portugal should ever end up in a court, the chance of convicting him will be higher in Germany because from what I have read, statutes of limitation Portugal would prevent most charges by now.


UK Covid deaths among worst of big European economies

google.com/amp/s/bbc.com/news/health-65975154.amp


That goes with adhering to the rule of law.

Besides, Poland is hardly in position to complain over slow reactions to an extradition request after allowing the NSII suspect to escape. The consequences of which will be probably felt for a long time in the legal cooperation between those two countries.

@Bratwurst Boy


Not gonna happen and with good reasons if we look at our history.