Why should Poland consider pursuing a strategic alliance with Ukraine?

As a thought experiment and a continuation of sorts of the strategic alliance with Russia thread, I propose a discussion of another option (as in the thread's title).

Of course, Poland is already supporting the Ukrainian war effort and has been doing so from the very beginning of the Russian invasion (not only with weapons but also with economic and humanitarian aid) but should our two Slavic countries strengthen the ties and formalise an even closer alliance?

Possible arguments for:

- the fall of Ukraine means that Poland will become the next "bumper" of the West to stop the invading Russians;
- the fall of Ukraine, coupled with American withdrawal from Europe, will create a very difficult geostrategic position
for Poland;
- a strong bilateral alliance could serve as the economic spine of the Three Seas (Międzymorze) Initiative, making
the entire Central Europe more self-reliant and globally competitive.

Possible arguments against:

- Ukrainian government is staunchly pro-German and marginalising Poland in their plans (like future rebuilding of Ukraine);
- Ukraine glorifies and honours OUN-UPA and Waffen-SS formations that took part in genocide of Poles;
- Ukraine has a very strong nationalist current which could potentially make such an alliance fragile or even counterproductive
in the long term.

They are enough.

What happened to you? Why bother to post it?

For the same reason I posted the Russia thread - discussion. That's what internet forums are for.

Good question, Iron...He must be in competition for the most frequent poster...

Poor Tirq...all that effort for this...but you always can count on me...


It's very simple....Either we have referenda or we don't.

The fact is that we do. See Kosovo. Therefore, Usrainian army is now in Russia. We should all support Russia's efforts to expel the Usrainian aggression.

Unless, of course, there are two kinds of referenda: Pro-Western kind, and pro-Russia kind...

I am never sure how to spell "in-your-face slimy hypocrisy"...or "Westerm lying mother fvckers"...

Erm... surely you're talking about yourself here. I wrote 9 posts in the last twenty-four hours, whilst you wrote 23. :)


The horror! You have to leave this horrible West ASAP. And don't forget to take all your family with you. You can't let them live in a country governed by those "lying mother fvckers".

...Russia's neighbor with all the incentives to be Russia's friend and to become another Austria - a prosperous and neutral country, wise enough to say nein to NATO, US bases, tanks, artillery and shlt like this...

Guess what...Russia didn't touch Austria...Amazing .... and proving that NATO is useless if you have enough brains...

Mongolia is not in NATO, either...Still Mongolia...


I represent the US, a country 8 times bigger than yours, so I have more issues to cover...

I noticed that you skipped over:

Either we have referenda or we don't.

You, Euros, are all the same...Ignore the meat and find low hanging, throw away nothing...

So you are saying that Poland should have a rational political policy. Nothing new, I'm trying to impress upon a few people that very idea.
If that is the case, there is no need to argue for the alliance on such a basic level; it should be a matter of course. Details should be ironed out so that Poland would gain and not lose in such a partnership.
A word to the wise: Poland without Ukraine still has many options, while Ukraine without Poland is isolated and cut off almost completely.
--

Funny!

If some ******* can represent the US at the Olympics just because he knows how to beat the brains out of the guy in front of him, I can do the same here just as easily...

Actually, you don't,because you are in fact Polish.Like it or not.


Who are Usrainians?You said it twice......what a total moron!

...usrainians are the people who live next to r*SSians...


The US government says I am an American so I am an American.

Don't like it?

Go to Washington and argue with them.

Sure

-For
1. the fall of Ukraine means that Poland will become the next "bumper" of the West to stop the invading Russians (completely agree)

2. the fall of Ukraine, coupled with American withdrawal from Europe, will create a very difficult geostrategic position
for Poland. Only under certain circumstances (if Germany and France will strong enough and Russia won't accept a Polish influenced Europe. Then lack of America would be a security risk. If U.S.A backs out of Ukraine to save money but, instead chooses to heavily invest in to Poland while having a secret agreement with Russia regarding U.S/Russia influence in Slavic world it would be advantages for Poland that America backs out of Ukraine)

3. a strong bilateral alliance could serve as the economic spine of the Three Seas (Międzymorze) Initiative, making
the entire Central Europe more self-reliant and globally competitive. This can only happen with a weakened Europe as Ukraine jumps at first possible opportunity to throw and cast away Polish relations or Russian relations if German or other relations can be forged.

4. Poland has been the shield of Europe for a long time, taking the brunt of conflicts and with that deaths with regards to Swedish, Turkish or Russian Imperialism throughout history.

Having Ukraine taking over that role to build up it's sovereignty will give room and space for both Germany and Poland to build up industrially and economically.

5. With a sovereign Ukraine and in alliance with Poland, Ukrainian citizens will favour working economically in Poland over Russia for the next decades.

The whole world understands this.

Not if we build an alliance, as I mentioned above, rather than seeking exotic alliances.
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Have your peers elected you to that role? If not, have you been delegated by some branch of the US government to that role?
If not, you represent yourself and your flies. Period.

I certainly hope so. Ukraine has a lot going for it: well educated population, mineral wealth, fertile soils. Proper governance, close integration with Western institutions and keeping Russian threat in check could change this country into a strong and prosperous democracy.

Poland have always wanted to pull Ukraine closer to the West and away from Russia. For reasons both romantic (Pilsudski's dream of an alliance/federation of Poland, Ukraine and Belarus as a recreation of the Commonwealth of Both Nations) and pragmatic (Russia deprived of Ukraine is merely a regional power, not a true empire). It may be considered self-serving, but at the same time Ukrainians would profit a lot from the deal, just as Poles profited from integration with the West.

Russia's aggression merely accelerated our efforts.

But we have to remember that it will also produce a number of costs. First, there is a question of actually pulling Ukraine into the EU - a process that will take 1-2 decades and force a number of concessions so that other countries allow it. And after Ukraine is in the EU, Warsaw's influence in Kyiv might actually weaken. Having achieved its strategic aim, Ukraine will have more prospects and close cooperation with Poland is not a given - of course it is possible, but only on the basis of common interests, not romantic "friendship of nations". Plus, we'll be competing for EU funds and Ukraine, still much poorer at the moment of EU accession, will probably receive a greater portion of these. Still, political profits for Poland from Western-aligned Ukraine surpass the financial costs.

It is useless talk. Covering the same ground again and again. It's annoying because it reveals that posters have no clue about politics.

I was accused of being a Russian troll on Putin's payroll.

This gives me the right to claim I am a US troll on Trump's payroll. In that sense, I represent US interests here ...and better than anyone in US government

Like, for example, when I post: Go fvck yourself, stupid Euros! Take care of your own shlt.

I am also a speech writer for Trump. He actually quoted me when he said "fvck" the other day...


Every parasite profits from being a parasite.

What happened to you Novi?

You seem upset.

Did nigers hopped the wall of your gated community and steal your molded cheese?

Moldy, not molded...

Molded: made to fit ...See Brits and other Western bootlickers like Alien, Tacitus, and Atch...

And rightly so!


Really? He has now turned against Putin and is supporting Ukraine.

How does that make you feel?

Like a parasite?

He has not.

In fact, he gave Putin 50 days to finish off Usraine and get things back to a sustainable MO between the US and Russia. The rest of you don't count for shlt.

He doesn't have much time left. 🤔

I don't know.. I would not trust Ukraine. They don't care about Poland as much as Poland cares for Ukraine.

Is Poland insane?

Or is it still too early for full diagnosis?

I think Ukrainians consider themselves, due to their higher population and specific national pride, above Polish people. Maybe they see Poland as weak considering Poland helped them so much. Poland's big help doesn't even compare to other nations like the Baltic states or Czechia and Slovakia; why not?

On the other hand, Poland does it as it is afraid of further Russian invasion, so it's not out of pure heart.

Poland is a woman. It reacts on feelings. Zero logic.

By "helping" Ukrainian refugees, Poland prolongs the war and causes thousands to die. But, hey, as long as it feels good...

Who cares what they consider themselves on that level? lol! Another useless comment regarding politics.
If anything, their problem is they consider themselves to be some kind of Russia, ie, world power or at least local power, which they are not.
Their foreign policy is bold and rational, but I think that their rationality is flawed; they fail to see the bigger picture. Their biggest flaw is the failure to recognize the importance of Poland. They might come to regret it.
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I think such statements are aimed more at expressing emotional feelings than a logical analysis of the issue.
Poland instinct to help Ukraine is rational, but the way they go about it is irrational and goes too far without securing Polish interests.
The problem, as always, lies in Polish politicians, who are not up to par and, clearly, on average, less capable and less intelligent than your average Polish citizen.

It has it's practical use, the power in Poland lies in the streets of Poland and the will of it's people that no politician can bend to his own will. (Number one mistake foreign politicians regarding Poland make)

So when Ukrainian leadership and politicians clearly snub and behave badly towards Polish politicians like they did. It shows their true colours that the public notices and shifts accordingly leading to a policy change that comes as a surprise.

After all, the two most influential parties in Poland both originate from the same single labour union.

Poland's population, counting Ukrainians who are here to stay, is about 40 million. Ukraine's is about 24 million, and if they think those who have been living abroad for the past three years will come back after the war is over, they have to think again.