Poland's aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 27

....can't it be both? NATO still alive and well plus Europeans which shoulder alot more of the men and costs than the meagre percents now?

After all there will be (hopefully) no nuclear conflicts but probably more Ukraines...possible even on our hometurf Europe.

It's always worth remembering that the US liked Europe being dependent on the US until five minutes ago when it didn't....

That said, and I repeat, if the US abandons Ukraine it will abandon Poland when the time comes, so regional military alliances apart from NATO are needed.

Agreed! Even as I am more a supporter of "additional" instead of "apart"....

Hence the declaration about the building of a european multi-national force this evening could become such an important turning point in history!

The actual reason is to support Ukraine, but once build and set in motion, that would be a good starting point....

Given the animosity in this thread, I wonder if Novi would kill his opponents if he had an opportunity?

Unlikely.

Only if they threaten my family.

Nothing else is worth risking your life for. If you know what it is, name top 5.

A drunk in the pond is not one of them, so skip this one.

Russian lies and propaganda are only trying to get a better peace deal, but everyone is seeing through their pathetic lies.....and it shows that Russia really doesn't want to fight on, because it is killing Russia......Ukraine needs to keep on fighting a little bit longer.....Russia will fall soon.

So far, 2 million od them are dead or disabled.

What is the limit?

I am so happy to see how the French support Z and are soooo ready to die for him and that "freedom and democracy" ... in the most corrupt shlthole ever...

Here is the evidence how eager they are...

Hopefully and about time!

Don't forget Monaco and Lichtenstein...That would make Russia tremble...

So, how many civilians died since Feb 2022?

Onet publishes an interesting interview with professor Norman Davies...

"Trump will betray everyone. It's better not to be his friend."

"Putin is a nonentity. He is a vassal of China. The emerging world order now has two poles - the United States and China. For the time being, Putin is China's partner, but the moment will soon come when China grows weary of him. In fact, this process is already underway, because he has failed to accomplish his mission. He was meant to demonstrate that Russia is a great power, yet he has been unable to prevail against a country as small and, in global terms, as marginal as Ukraine. Four years have passed, and he is still struggling. He has lost a million people under the watchful gaze of the Chinese - and achieved nothing."

"For twenty years, he (Putin) has failed; he has recovered less than one percent of the territories of the former empire. The attack on Ukraine is a desperate move. He already knows that he will not defeat the Ukrainians. Ukraine, of course, has its weaknesses-corruption among them-but it is better prepared than Russia. The widespread claim in the media that Russia is on the verge of victory is nonsense."

wiadomosci.onet.pl/tylko-w-onecie/trump-tworzy-nowy-porzadek-swiata-prof-davies-on-chce-wszystko-zepsuc/dd8wdxk

... well said, Professor. Well said.

What if Putn's objective is to depopulate Ukraine...That's exactly what you would do...a slow grinder so they keep coming to be ground...

The US did the opposite in Iraq...shock and awe...and what did we get? A regime that is friendly with Iran...if not Iran's bit*ch...

Also, if victory in Donbass was quick, how would he justify rebuilding Russia's military power?

For the same reason, the US MICC does not want Russia to collapse...It needs an enemy, and Russia is it.

But this war has not been good for the US MIC - their kit has been shown to be overpriced and often ineffective, and 100 million dollar fighters no longer seem a great investment. Ukraine has not collapsed despite the US withdrawing support because it's drone expertise is so good

Their model of making client countries rely on US spare parts and software updates only works if there is total trust - Vance torched that about a fortnight after being elected when he told the Euros they were all morons and losers

Drones have changed everything...so much that they should be illegal under the Geneva Conventions. A PC with AI and a drone does not allow the target to surrender.


We were never able to justify those as essential to the safety of the US.

Or the tanks and artillery...both for wars with the second-tier countries, the wars we always lose.

Exactly. Nobody should buy even a single rifle round from the US after that.

Also, why is Poland still selling TNT to United States at production cost (even India sells their TNT for higher prices)? One Polish factory, Nitro-Chem, supplies approximately 90% of the TNT imported into the United States, which is then used in the U.S. to fill munitions, such as artillery shells and aerial bombs. Why aren't we using this TNT to make artillery shells for our own army? We are a frontline country, fighting off the hybrid war on the Balearussian border and quite close to a hot war - we need this TNT more than Americans.

In general, it would seem that the time quickly approaches when the USA will be told to f*ck off from Europe and never come back.


Neither does a nuke. Should they be made illegal?

Generally, why do we not support our own production and fail to aim for the production of munitions and military equipment mostly on our own? In the event of a war, we wouldn't want to depend on the goodwill of others or beg for supplies, as that would be a very unfavorable scenario.
I can already because our politicians and KO losers in particular (but not only) are incompetent little vaginas not fit for purpose.

Apart from too much estrogen, they don't have the freedom gene. They come from vassal backgrounds, where the thinking was always directed towards some kind of overlord - be it Moscow, Brussels or Washington. They are completely and utterly unable to imagine that Poland could pursue independent policies, sometimes against the wishes of our allies. They are mental serfs.

Don't be ridiculous; that empty talk about a European army is just another scam. At best, it is to divert attention from the real issues, and at worst, it could be a way to siphon more resources from other EU countries to artificially prop up the struggling German and French economies.

It's not that ridiculous when you think of it. We need a serious military force when Americans finally f*ck off to concentrate on Venezuela and Barbados.

And we can't do it all on our own.

Well, that's true. It's obvious I was surprised by Centkiewicz and his take on foreign policy. Surely, the EU is not something worth keeping, but dependence on the US is foolhardy. Unless he was selling what he thinks people expect, maybe? I believe people have more sense than that.

We need to establish our own military force. If we leave that responsibility to someone else, they will use it to their advantage and for their own benefit, not ours. That is another obvious truth.

We can build a robust army of approximately two million strong, with a million trained reserves, while still managing our economy effectively. This is achievable. Additionally, as I have mentioned many times, we could have allies in Scandinavia, Turkey, and possibly Romania and Ukraine. This coalition would be sufficient to keep Russia in check.

Furthermore, improving our relationship with China. Given the fact that they are eyeing East Siberia or, at the very least, Manchuria, it makes sense. Your scenario feels like a fantasy. Why not ask unicorns for help while you're at it? Lol.

First and foremost.

But additional European force, independent from American whims and hissy fits, is a must.


I would say the other way around - a million standing force with two million (possibly even more) trained reservists. We need to aim at the Swiss system when it comes to reserves and territorial defence.


Not without nukes, tactical and strategic.


I would prefer to improve relations with Russia, but it is impossible with putinists in power. So maybe it will be Europe from Lisbon to Hǎishēnwǎi. Who knows.

putin is not the problem.... 130 million enraged narcissists is the problem. There's nothing any country can do or give them to make them happy....

However, we are talking about a citizen army, a profecional standing army in the time of peace wouldn't be much more than 300,000 personnel, which is economically viable.

By European force, you mean our allies that I listed. Others? What makes you think they would lift a finger in Poland's defence? You are naive.
---

Sure, we were talking about nukes. If you remember, I was already talking about it ten years ago.
---

I said that many times since 1655, Russia has set its policies as an enemy and won't change its tune. They have nothing to offer to Poland that is worth accepting without losing a major war.

Because it is in their interests as well. We are their shield from the East.


That's right. I think you were the second poster here, after me, who was talking about it. Fair play.


Unfortunately. They positioned themselves as enemies of the Holy Rzeczpospolita. A pity :(

And the surest way to perdition - where are our enemies? Strong militaristic Prussia - where are you? Austro-Hungary - any news from them? Ottoman Empire - anyone heard lately? Third Reich - hello? Soviet Union? Didn't think so.

Being an enemy of Poland is a suicidal policy in the long run.

Their interest and aims are different from ours. Being somebody else's shield is not a good postion. The fact that you think it is an advantage tells me you need to learn a lot.

Ethnic Russians? That's closer to 100 million. In a decade or so there will be more Turks, and there's already more Vietnamese. The demographic collapse is terrifying.


Exactly. Those bloody narcissists who think their country is the best. They really should grow the f*ck up. *rolls eyes*


It depends. Especially when the shield is so strong that the blow doesn't come but the profits are still there. You need to think outside the box, Iron.

Some degree of national narcissism is necessary for a country to work well (see Belgium for a place that doesn't have it and doesn't function well as a state).

The problem with russia is they expect to be.... worshipped and the refusal of the rest of the world to do so drives them to blind fury.


I'm not sure how much the wounded narcissism affects non-russkij rossijane.... an interesting research topic for someone who isn't me.

I don't know - missiles and planes are the same - not much chance to surrender

The good thing about drones is that they level the playing field between rich countries and poor countries and anything that stops US and Chinese bullying is probably a good defense policy.