Poland's aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 21

Maf is right. Your assumption is incorrect.
People have the innate ability to dissipate themselves from empathy or caring for other people.
That is a real human nature. What you were talking about is a cultural trait due to Christianity.
Russians do not have it. Chinese do not have it and so on.
Even on this board seemingly normal Europeans or Americans who cry over a poor little Bambi and care about each civilian dead in Ukraine - do not give a F about kids being slaughtered in Gaza.
Once again, human nature is normal not to care about people you don't know or like.
So stop deluding yourself that people in Russia care.

I could not, because this news was only published today.

Yesterday I already cited a Russian report which referenced Bezuhla's early statement.

Bezugla is not crazy. She's just sort of autistic, and has no sense of up or down when it comes to politics. She's quite popular with the rank and file soldiers, because she is one of the very few people in government that often brings up issues of incompetence with Ukrainian command. She was even popular with Zelensky, when he used her as an attack dog against General Zaluzhny.

Later Zelensky became frustrated with her, because she began criticizing his new pick - General Syrski. She got kicked out of her committee, when she kept reporting on the abysmal state of fortifications around Pokrovsk and the massive theft involved.


Yes, but they continue anyway. It has ricocheted back into the Ukrainian government's face multiple times - but they continue anyway. For some reason they don't understand that this only loses them credibility with the international community and their own electorate.

Several possible reasons:

1) Overall amateurish quality of Ukrainian government

2) Soviet legacy methods, unadapted to 21st century information realities

3) Dangerously attractive example of Bucha. As JD Vance pointed out, many could see that Zelensky was juicing that alleged massacre for every ounce of international sympathy he could get out of it. Staging literally dozens of visits by visiting foreign heads of state to Bucha (even as the town was fully reconstructed, and civilian life had returned to normal).


It's not a separate children's play. It's the children putting on a performance for the gathered adults (soldiers). This is typical for ex-Soviet republics. To Westerners it may seem strange, but it's pretty normal. You can see it in China, Vietnam, NK too.

This makes this award ceremony doubly idiotic, of course. Sumy is located 40 kilometers from the Russian border. Russia's cheapest surveillance drones can reach such distances easily, and loiter over the target for 24 hrs a day.

The previous strike in Dnipropetrovsk using Iskander-Ms was on a training ground 110km deep behind the front, and still people in Ukraine wondered at what kind of idiots are commanding them. Any person with a brain, understands in the third year of this war that it is criminally stupid to gather large groups of military personnel in a single area. This is not Gaza, where Israeli tanks roll in side by side, and the only threat is a Palestinian popping out of a hole.

Hahaha!

People in Ukraine are pissed! They are incredibly angry, but there's not much you can do in a context of martial law and the severe punishments for speaking out.

On rare occasions, however, some news does leak out. Last year, for example, a shopping mall in Kharkov was hit. Of course, Zelensky started up his "Bucha orchestra", and news sites around the world were filled with reports of yet another war crime committed by Russia.

Then, some 3 week old footage emerged, which was very inconvenient for the Ukrainian government. In this footage, a Ukrainian business owner - Yulia Protas - complains about the illegal billeting of Azov troops within her rented commercial space inside the mall. The woman was smart enough to have a cop on scene, and to record the entire interaction.

A short quote from her speech: "The military personnel, which belong to military unit A4638, which calls itself the Third Assault [brigade], have seized our civilian facility. They call themselves the security guards of this facility, they now call it a military facility, they do not allow the owners and main tenants to enter there."

She goes on to say there, that beyond being completely illegal, this step was also immoral because it could only lead to an inevitable Russian strike.

Of course the woman and her complaints are totally ignored. Three weeks later a missile strike arrives, and she loses all of her property.

This woman was some kind of Nostradamus - no less.

The Ukrainian news source below, describes the threats she has been receiving since - and generally how hard her life has become.

Source: antikor.com.ua/ru/amp/articles/721801-harjkovchanka_zajavila_o_travle_posle_publikatsii_video_o_3-j_shturmovoj_brigade_v_kotorom_ona_obvinila_ih_v_rejderskom_zahvate_tts

I wouldn't say I don't give a F, more that I can't see any way out of the current situation... Israelis have shown they're willing to live next to Palestinians but Palestinians won't accept anything but the complete destruction of Israel and/or slaughter of all the Jews... they're pretty clear about that.

A woman declaring she wants her children to become martyrs... it's not that I don't care but that she doesn't.

What's your solution to Israel/Palestine?

More updates from the missile strike in Ukraine. The mayor of the nearby city of Konotop, accuses the municipal authorities of Sumy in organizing an award ceremony for territorial defense soldiers (117th Brigade).

He claims that people told Vladimir Artyukh (the head of the Sumy Municipal Military Administration) that this was a terrible idea, but he ignored those suggestions.

Quote:
"He (Artyukh - Channel 24) organized the presentation of an award certificate and a medal here, today - for our guys, the heroes from one of the local brigades. The 117th Brigade. Everyone is already talking about it, everyone is writing about it - so it is not a secret at all. And it is not true that there was nothing happening here."

The mayor of Konotop goes on to say that there were few casualties among the military personnel, because they were conducting their meeting in the university's bomb shelter. Instead, civilians took on the majority of the damage.

Source: 24tv.ua/udar-stavsya-pid-chas-zboriv-117-yi-brigadi-mer-konotopa-zvinuvativ_n2798610/amp

Attaching a photo below of a location where a missile punched through the pavement and entered the shelter below. The other missile - even according to the Russian MoD - was deflected by electronic countermeasures and landed in a place it was not aimed at.

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  IMG_6229.jpeg
  

Enough of this drivel Bobko.

North Nigeria aimed at civilians, they hit civilians, then they hit again - also aimed at civilians.

Why can't you just link to regular sources - BBC, Gazeta Wyborcza, le Monde, whatever. Anything apart from NN bullshit.

All responsible will face trial one day.

Where were you - friend - when Israel was turning Gaza into a parking lot?

I showed you - on the example of a single missile strike - how much lying is involved and how much is at stake.

Do you think it so fantastically unlikely, that Zelensky may be desperate for an event that could once again rally Western public opinion to Ukraine's cause?

Did he not extract copious dividends from the alleged massacre at Bucha, in the suburbs of Kiev?

Does it not play to Zelensky's interest to embarrass Trump, and make it politically unpalatable for him to withdraw support from Ukraine?

Russia has everything to lose, and nothing to gain, from targeting civilians. The only cases where a forced evacuation of civilians makes logical sense, is when the fighting is right outside the city gates. In this case, some calculated terror might be employed to force people to leave. This was not the case in Sumy.

Now tell me Bobko...where were the ukrainian terrorists kidnapping russian young people from festivals, raiding russian villages and murdering every living soul...men, women, babies!
Where do you think ukrainian terrorists are holding russian hostages captive...torturing them for years now?

When did the ukrainians demand the end of the russian state? The total annihilation of Russia?

You know as well as me that if such things had happened, the russian military answer would be seen more as a necessary defense, met with alot more understanding and sympathy....but they didn't....or did they and the West just never knew???

@Bratwurst Boy


They did, and the West knew.

The West is not some good wizard Gandalf. It is every bit as evil as whoever they accuse of evil. People simply have short memories.

Nobody now remembers the words Abu Ghraib. That American soldiers hung guys up from bars, smeared excrement over their faces, electrocuted their genitals, forced them to imitate sex acts on each other, had dogs bite them, injected them with toxic substances like cleaning detergents.

Nobody remembers that America operated black prison sites all around the world, where absolutely no laws applied.

So in the same way nobody cares to remember that there were killings, and tortures, and wholesale massacres in Ukraine (Odessa Trade Union House).

If it happens to Gazans or to Russians - nobody cares.

There is nothing alleged about Bucha. And of course Zelensky is going to show the world that North Nigerians are behaving like 1942 Nazis - this was at a time when he needed the decent people of the planet on his side against the invading rapists and murderers.

Sumy is the same - a deliberate strike on civilians to spread terror and for Putler to show his ignorant "voters" that they are able to murder Ukrainians and make things go bang.

Gaza - is a completely different issue and actually I strongly oppose Israel's tactics there - indiscriminately bombing civilians and collective punishment

And lots of people remember Abu Gheaib, Guantanamo etc - it is possible to buy books and read articles on that, unlike in prison camp North Nigeria where the army's many sins are ignored.

Ukrainians did in Russia as the Hamas did in Israel? Now that would be totally new to me....do you have some links for me for information?

You forgot the Guardian, CNN, and NYT...
You are a moron but still funny..."regular sources"...hahahahahaha...


You can bomb all you want. That's what the Brits and Yanks did in Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki. I was barely three then and not even a US citizen, but I am proud of the US for all three.

That's how you win wars fast and save lives on both sides. All else is slow cruelty mascarading as compassion that sees men as expandable and babies, women, and useless old people as precious. Laws of nature saying the exact opposite...

You are missing my point.

If you only focus on October 7th, 2023 or February 24, 2022 - you are missing a large part of the picture.

Of course, if you know nothing else - then both Gazans and Russians seem like wild apes. Beasts to be put down, so that civilized folk may live peacefully.

However, if you know that Israelis have forced an entire generation of Arabs to feel subhuman, then your eyes begin to open a bit. When you begin to understand, that they robbed an entire people of a sense of agency, of dignity, of basic humanity - then October 7th begins to seem much more reasonable. It's just that the West was entirely happy to close its eyes to the brutal apartheid built by Israel in the occupied territories.

In the same way, the West is happy to close its eyes to whatever Ukrainians, Estonians, Lithuanians etc do to dehumanize their Russian citizens.

Every country, just like any person, has a boiling point. The point at which the temperature can no longer go up. Then you get October 7.

This is the way in which the West can continuously be surprised. "Oh my God - those Palestinians - WTF is wrong with them?". "These Russians - what the hell is going through their heads?!"

....any you shouldn't had brought Israel as a "whatabout"-comparison into this discussion! ;)

You know....IMHO there are always ways to reason attacks, past sufferings are always popular....that way Hitler rose to power and WWII started, to rectify the injustices done to Germans before!

Imagine people had instead decided to look forward and peacefully.....Germans would be today much better off, so will be Palis!

It's not past suffering. It's real and ongoing suffering.

It's an Israeli soldier, telling you that you cannot approach closer than 500 meters to a fence that they put INSIDE YOUR TERRITORY - otherwise he will shoot you.

It's an Israeli soldier, groping your wife at a checkpoint, and slamming your kid against a wall.

It's you being helpless to stop it, and feeling like the last piece of sh*t on Earth for this fact.

If I was trying to create a new HAMAS, I could not do better than Israel's occupation forces. In the same way, if I was trying to create ISIS - I could not have done better than the CIA and Army at Abu Ghraib. Nearly everybody who left Abu Ghraib ended up being radicalized.

For Russia, its the Ukrainian government letting loose the worst nationalists. Giving them carte blanche to go around harassing Russian people for their language, for their culture, and their history. This is not some imagined past slight, but an open wound.

You already know how I feel about Russia. Because of that, I would not elevate the 10/7 massacre to anything Russia did since the collapse of the USSR.

I want to continue believing that Russia is better.

The evidence: Kiev still standing and, compared to peaceful US, almost laughable U civilian casualties of 13,000 in your liberation war with Z.

They could stop it TODAY!

But Hamas and their supporters won't let them....but to accept that truth, learn the necessary lessons and change their ways is something nobody can do but the Palis themselves. And as long as they prefer to blame and threaten Israel as long they will suffer!

Maybe they didn't suffer enough till now....it needed the full destruction of Germany, the loss of so much of our Heimat, Dresden, partition, occupation, etc. to accept the truth.
Maybe the Palis are still to well off....who knows!

10/7 are the actions of a terrified beast that managed to break out of its cage.

If you put a dog in a box, starve it, and constantly prod it with sticks - you'll get a similar result.

If Ukrainians were in a similar position to Israelis, in their capacity to humiliate and degrade Russians, we would have nuked them by now. As I'm sure Hamas would have nuked Israel if it could.

How does Israel make peace with the guys who want to wipe it off ...

Any debate and negotiations must start with this simple statement: Israel's existence is not negotiable. Now let's talk about the rest...

Being well off has nothing to do with your capacity to pop off. Poorer Palestinians will be even more radicalized, even more willing to die for the idea. Look at the Houthis. They walk barefoot, use 1940s vintage rifles, chew khat - and not a single army on Earth can defeat them. The Saudis and the Emiratis tried starving them, bombing them, and bribing them - but they only get stronger and stronger. Instead of being destroyed, they now threaten all of global shipping through the Red Sea. Trump fired some dozens of Tomahawks at them, they simply laughed and shrugged it off.

The Russian Empire fell apart, when its citizens were doing arguably the best they had ever done. The Soviet Union fell apart, when it was at its most democratic and liberal.

People get spoiled easily, and then begin to pull the wagon in opposite directions.

It's the poor people, that having nothing left to lose, but a trainload of grievances that you should be afraid of.

Exactly THAT! *nods*

Maybe there will be some Palis in the future who will do just that....and they will grow and more and more Palis will be behind them.

There are already some dissenters in Gaza....brave ones openly protesting Hamas (and paying a deadly price for that). But they have shown the world that they exist...maybe they will be the ones who decide for peace and end the suffering!

Bad analogy.... We kill beasts that attack women and kids. I got a gun for just such occasions.

A terrified beast kills when threatened. Those Israelis by the border were not a threat to anyone other then to themselves by being stupid.

PS: I seriously doubt that....we have in Berlin a quite big "community" of Palis...they kept and keep coming because of Germany's still quite generous refugee laws.
And you can't really call them "poor"....they live quite well in Berlin, still supported with lotsa german money...in a peaceful town in a rich country, with appartements and jobs....but when they take to the streets in support of Hamas and their terrorists brethren, screaming their "from the river to the sea", you can't feel anything but contempt and disgust for them!

...they don't have to pay the price for their actions, their people in Gaza have!

I think Israel's time in the Middle East is limited. It failed at making friends with its neighbors. It survives on the largesse of the American and German taxpayer.

The election of Trump has shown that things can shift quickly.

If you want leadership in the Muslim world, you have to take a hard line on Israel. This is why Erdogan tries to be the main defender of Hamas. It's why the Saudis find it so difficult to give Trump what he wants there. It's why Iran - the sole Persian in a sea of Arabs - tries to champion this cause.

Israel did well against the Arabs. Will it do as well against Turks or Persians? Will have to see.

If Egypt and Saidis can, so can Palestinians.

I suspect that Hamas is a bunch of unemployable thugs in need of reason to exist. Hence: Death to Israel! ...an unachievable objective and never-ending stream of money for Israel haters.

Full employment forever...Why end it with a peace treaty...

Reminds me of NATO...

...well....I guess, before the Jews give up their homeland a second time they will take down with them all the Arabs in their vicinity! There won't be a Gaza or Westbank including residents left afterwards....just my guess!

Oh, please, don't spare us! Give us all the deets!

Load up Google News - it is your friend.

Even this year, the show continues.

Estonia revokes the rights of 80,000 residents to vote in local elections.

More historically - people are being made apatrides (persons with no citizenship whatsoever), for failing at Estonian language tests.

Understand - these people are not citizens of the Russian Federation. They are citizens of no place at all. Why? Because they can't learn a language that nobody needs or wants.

russian citizens and not Estonian citizens... what's wrong wit that?


It's not that high a hurdle and most ethnic russian Estonian citizens had no problem...


Well that's wrong because they obviously need it..... IF THEY WANT TO LIVE IN ESTONIA AND BECOME ESTONIAN CITIZENS!!!!!

They create their own problems and then whinge and cry about it.... how many Estonians could blow off russian and not learn it during the accursed soviet union?

Really? Learning a Finno-Ugric language that has absolutely no relation whatsoever to any Indo-European language is easy?

It's easier for a Russian to learn German or French, than to learn Estonian.

Two times less people speak Estonian, than the population of St. Petersburg. That's being generous.

Estonian's use abroad is exactly zero.

Everyone in the Estonian business community speaks either English or Russian fluently. You can work in Estonia completely calmly with zero knowledge of Estonian.

Don't you think it does represent a BIT of a hurdle, to learn this stupid language? Especially when your grandparents had moved there, and never had to learn it?