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Poland's aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 20


Novichok  4 | 8768
27 Mar 2025   #1321
Day 1126 of the 3 day special peace operation.

How many years did the US stay in Iraq and Afghanistan?

sitting safely behind a screen,

As opposed to doing what?

Why do you think we love it here? The answer: Because we are very far away from the nuts that love starting world wars. That's why...

Jak u Pana Boga za piecem...
PolAmKrakow  2 | 955
27 Mar 2025   #1322
@Miloslaw
Please explain how Europe benefits the US as an ally. Does anyone think for a second that an invading force would attempt to land on US shores? Does Europe protect the US with its vast nuclear arms? Or is the argument based on having fought together in the past for Europe?

@Ironside
What Americans get worked up about is not the war in Ukraine, but the spending on the war. Europe has given Ukraine loans, not free money like the US has. Americans are too caught up in fixing their own country now. And that work stirs up a lot of emotions concerning social issues in the US. No one has explained how it benefits the American citizen directly by supporting Ukraine financially. Unless they become a "state" or a "protectorate" like Puerto Rico, where is the value for the every day American? What are the bottom spheres of American society? Considering Trump won the popular vote, are those bottom spheres, only the uneducated, and poor? Or is it the group that simply doesnt want the leftist socialist democratic agenda infecting and poluting the country, and Europe, to remain in power?

@cms neuf
How about the ones who died for Poland and Europe?
OP cms neuf  2 | 1971
27 Mar 2025   #1323
Which American soldiers have died for Poland ? That is nuts.

How does Europe benefit the US as an ally - use of bases, sharing technology, sharing intelligence, logistics, providing troops to US missions, refuelling. If you mean military there are plenty of ways. if you mean as a political and democratic ally well there are hundreds of ways.

Europe has provided plenty of free money to Ukraine - as much as the US has. Both Macron and Starmer pointed this out publicly to Golden Cow.
PolAmKrakow  2 | 955
27 Mar 2025   #1324
@cms neuf
You think that US soldiers getting killed across Europe in WW2 was not in defense of Poland or was it only France and Germany? Use of bases? Watch how quickly local economies crater when those US soldiers and salaries leave town. Europe wants those dollars flowing in local economies. I will not disparage the troops all Europe has sent to the US illegal wars. I will say though that those numbers were small. The US really doesnt need democratic allies when it is the home of democracy. Its fledgling democracies that need the US.

Europe has loaned money to Ukraine, Google is your friend. Some of it to be repiad by Russian assets, which is essentially stealing from Russia.
OP cms neuf  2 | 1971
27 Mar 2025   #1325
No I don't think it was in defence of Poland - unless Patton and Eisenhower thought that delivering us to Stalin was for our own good.

Not a single US soldier died in combat in Polish soil.

Even by your standards it is one of the dumbest opinions I have heard.

BTW many Poles fought alongside US troops in Italy and Western Europe

Everything else in your post is incorrect too - as always. I simply can't be bothered to provide links on spending and military support for Ukraine

Home of democracy ? The US ? How's that working out
Feniks  2 | 863
27 Mar 2025   #1326
provide links on spending and military support for Ukraine

He's blocked me due to my calling him out over another issue with his numbers but in case anyone else is interested here are a couple of links to US and EU spending:

bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crew8y7pwd5o

factcheck.org/2025/03/trump-exaggerates-on-u-s-and-european-aid-to-ukraine-loans/
mafketis  38 | 11282
27 Mar 2025   #1327
So, when you cut through all the PR, Trump's Ukraine policy has resulted in

-no real ceasefire agreement (since russian demands cannot be met)

-a lot of posturing

-damage to Ukraine in collapsing the Kursk front (largely due to the intelligence blackout)

-possible benefits for russia in the Black Sea with no benefits for Ukraine

-talk about 'rare earth' agreements with no security guarantees and no real benefit to Ukraine

-cover for russia to amp up attacks against civilians

anything else?

Maybe it's time to wake up and smell the coffee....

It doesn't matter what Trump or Ukraine think or want - russia does not want peace and will not make an agreement that does not amount to Ukrainian surrender.

Time for a rethink of a clearly failing policy?
PolAmKrakow  2 | 955
27 Mar 2025   #1328
@cms neuf
So, if the US isnt fighting to liberate France, Germany and others, the USSR was going to fight where and with what weapons? Your take on history ignores facts. Lets remember that the rest of Europe delivered Poland to Stalin, the European brotherhood bent Poland over and didnt kiss them before fvcking them.

The home of democracy the US. How is it working out? Pretty damn good. Largest economy in the world, freely elected officials, freedom of speech in the purest form that Europe does not have anywhere. The democracy of Ukraine is working well isnt it? No voting, censorship, outlawing of religion, outlawing oposition political parties, and billions in missing "aid" money. How about the freedom in the UK? People being arrested and going to jail for stating their opinions publicly. Or the crime in Sweden, France, and Germany from this great migration of all these doctors and engineers from Africa. Your take on democracy is laughable.

Being on holiday in Spain, its been amazing to see how many Ukraine men of fighting age are here working and on vacation. Indeed, every Ukrainian man wants to be fighting for his country. Such patriotism should be funded endlessly. eye roll
Ironside  51 | 13114
27 Mar 2025   #1329
What Americans get worked up about

Dude, don't explain to me those things. Read my post in the context of Novi's crazy rants.
---
Also, I explain some things to people who are not Americans.
What are the bottom spheres of American society?

Oh, they know themselves who they are. I'm not going to point fingers here.
OP cms neuf  2 | 1971
27 Mar 2025   #1330
Here is a fact - no American ever died defending Poland

The whole Golden Cow thing about demanding gratitude is weakening America quickly.

As Maf points out, the so called talks have achieved nothing for Ukraine except a small prisoner swap

Both here and in Gaza, Golden Cow's intervention has made a bad situation worse. The reputation of the US is very low and getting worse because we can see his team are weak, with little experience in government and poor leadership skills
Barney  19 | 1763
2 days ago   #1331
Here is a fact - no American ever died defending Poland

Another fact western allies aid made not much difference to the Soviets winning the war.

About 34 million people served in the Red Army during the second world war, that translates into something like 3400 to 2266 combat divisions assuming a figure of 10000 to 15000 individuals per combat division. The western allies shipped 17.5 million tonnes which according to the us military would equip 60 combat divisions. The equipping of 60 divisions is a one off, it doesnt include replenishment etc.

The western allies didnt fund or supply somewhere between 2800 to 2206 divisions but claim that the 60 divisions they may have supplied won the war.
PolAmKrakow  2 | 955
2 days ago   #1332
@cms neuf
America weakening? Youre delusional. Anyone saying that is either jealous, or stupid.

@Barney
Get an education. Fvcking moronic claim there.
it.usembassy.gov/america-sent-gear-to-the-ussr-to-help-win-world-war-ii/
Przelotnyptak1  - | 759
2 days ago   #1333
Europe has provided plenty of free money to Ukraine

Oh yeah, free money that will have to be repaid.What is your definition of free? Are you using the Ebonic dictionary?
Przelotnyptak1  - | 759
2 days ago   #1334
Which American soldiers have died for Poland ? That is nuts.

The ones storming the beaches of Normandy. Do you ever take a moment to think before you write?
Przelotnyptak1  - | 759
2 days ago   #1335
couple of links to US and EU spending:

As soon you start using legitimate sources or your own opinion,I will listen. Your propaganda links are as useless as snake oil.
Przelotnyptak1  - | 759
2 days ago   #1336
Ukraine except a small prisoner swap

Even if that was extended of the achievement why would a decent man look at the prisoners swap ,ending their suffering as something meaningless?
Barney  19 | 1763
2 days ago   #1337
Get an education.

You may think you are the toughest guy on the internet but you repeatedly fail to back up your barroom braggard crap or any fantasy figures you pluck from yer hole. Even if you double my figures it still leaves 120 western supplied divisions vs several thousand divisions equipped by the Soviet Union. It doesnt matter how many lies US morons post it cant erase the fact that the Soviet Union won the war and that they watch too many movies.

I'll not be losing any sleep over "Get an Education" as it comes from the guy who thought renaming the Mexican Gulf invalidated all associated treaties.
OP cms neuf  2 | 1971
2 days ago   #1338
Really surreal answers here

Can someone else take over from me ? I'm starting to doubt my sanity
PolAmKrakow  2 | 955
2 days ago   #1339
@Barney
Another assinine answer. If you read the link, with the real numbers, if not for the US, Russia wouldnt have made it to Poland. You and others want to rewrite history to ignore truths. And this is why Americans dont GAF about Europe any more. Tough guy? Nah, just smarter than you.

@cms neuf
Seriously, your posts are surreal. Another example of why Americans just dont care anymore what Europeans say or think.
Barney  19 | 1763
2 days ago   #1340
@PolAmKrakow
Let's start from first principles.
Do you accept that the Red Army fielded 34 million personnel during WW2. If so what tonnage of equipment would they need?

If you don't accept that what numbers do you accept?
Bobko  27 | 2240
2 days ago   #1341
The ones storming the beaches of Normandy

The people storming Normandy certainly did not "free Poland". That's simply chronologically incorrect.

But in the popular America imagination, thanks to movies like Saving Private Ryan - Normandy is definitely treated that way.

The reality is that Normandy only happened on June 6, 1944. More than two years after Stalin started asking for the urgent opening of a second front.

Poland was invaded in September of 1939.

The Battle of Moscow, where the Nazis were finally stopped - was in the Fall of 1941.

The Battle of Stalingrad - which everybody agrees marks the turning point of the war - was from the summer of 1942 through February of 1943.

When the Allies landed in France (two years late), the USSR had already been fully liberated, and the Red Army was pushing through Eastern Poland.

Prior to finding the balls to open a proper second front - the Allies had been busy in North Africa and Sicily - two theaters that combined featured less men and material than the single battle of Stalingrad.

This is why Stalin was pissed - because Churchill and Roosevelt were trying to sell him the absolute side show in Africa as them "doing their part".

This is why Stalin was paranoid that Britain simply wants the Germans and Russians to kill as much of each other as possible, before doing anything meaningful. There are archival records that indicate that this is exactly what Churchill was thinking, and that Roosevelt was not a big fan of such a policy.
PolAmKrakow  2 | 955
2 days ago   #1342
@Barney
Yes the Soviet Union mobilized 34 million or so. Not all at once though, so your thinking of 34 million getting equiped is simply not supported by any evidence. Equipment is not measured by tonnage. See the itemized list on the link I provided. Without the US lend lease, Europe would still be goose stepping and speaking german. Russia would be what it is.

The Red Army began liberating Poland from German occupation in 1944 and early 1945, with the Soviet forces pushing the German military westward towards Berlin, effectively ending the German occupation of Poland. The Red Army lost 8 million before even beginning the Poland operations. AI will help you with the numbers and time lines. The Lend Lease Act was signed into law in 1941. So from 1941 on, the US provided it.usembassy.gov/america-sent-gear-to-the-ussr-to-help-win-world-war-ii/ How much does a jeep, tank or anything else weigh? I dont gaf, but anyone can count the numbers of things the US provided, without wich Poland wouldnt have been freed.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army
Bobko  27 | 2240
2 days ago   #1343
Given how modern England is the champion of the cause of fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian - nobody should be surprised that that was exactly how they viewed WW2 as well.

I'm not saying it's based on some intrinsic English sadism, but some very cold-headed realpolitik. Britain was strategically indifferent to the mutual attrition taking place between Germany and Russia, especially as long as Russia was doing all of the heavy lifting.

When Germany invaded Russia, Churchill famously said that, "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would at least make a favorable reference to the Devil in the House of Commons." This shows he already viewed Stalin as akin to the Devil.

Then, when Russia started winning the war, he of course showed up to Potsdam and Yalta and acted the role of a great friend of Russia.

However, within months of the war's conclusion he was already drafting a plan for something called "Operation Unthinkable" - a military plan for forcibly ejecting Russia from Eastern Europe.

10 million - 20 million - 30 million Russians - Churchill did not give a damn. So long as it was Russians dying instead of Englishmen he was happy. Some ally...

Then some people wonder why did the Cold War start? How did these allies end up hating each other so quickly?
Barney  19 | 1763
2 days ago   #1344
Not all at once though

I didn't suggest they did. I assumed that it was implicit in what I was saying that recycled equipment plus the captured and destroyed equipment can only be measured in tonnage. Again the equipment supplied was a small part of equipment used by the Red Army. If you are suggesting that the western allies supplied key equipment the tonnage produced domestically suggests this was not the case.

Equipment sent was probably welcome but was not the reason the Soviets won the war.
Ironside  51 | 13114
2 days ago   #1345
Then some people wonder why

Nice one sided story.
PolAmKrakow  2 | 955
2 days ago   #1346
@Barney
Even Russia admits and has stated that without the US lend lease program which began in March of 1941, the USSR could not have accomplished anything in Poland or elsewhere. Remember the US didnt enter the war until December of 1941. It had been shipping weapons and equipment for over eight months before Pearl Harbor was attacked. WW2 history is something I consume. No one ever mentions the US provoking Japan to attack Pearl Harbor, and ignoring the threats it knew existed before the attack. When the US cut off Japan from its fuel and oil it was only a matter of when they would attack.

My problem with many PF members here is that they dont want to remember facts, or that the US has supported Europe for 80 years. They simply dont like Trump and dont want to have to do the heavy lifting now. I get it. To bad mouth the US at every turn though, because Europe just doesnt like how things are being done is bvllshit. Europe had 80 years to get their sh1t together. They had over 30 since the wall came down. And nothing. Now they want the US to bail out Ukraine? Its garbage. And its my fvcking money thats going for it, and frankly I am tired of paying for this war, and all the other graft in Washington. So are millions more people.
OP cms neuf  2 | 1971
2 days ago   #1347
Of course the US looks weak now - they have been played very well by the NNs, and asking to be let back into Swift is a Lavrov masterstroke and it can only be done by involving the EU, who Golden Cow, Vance and all the other amateur hour crew have spent 2 months trying to insult.

However intelligent Vance is (and I read an enjoyed his book) his leadership and human skills are very poor. A lesson common to all European societies is that once you publicly humiliate someone, you can never ask for anything more from them again.

Same with tariffs, Greenland and Gaza - the US softpedals as soon as anyone sticks up to them.

I'm not sure how involved Golden Cow is now in day to day stuff BTW. Wouldn't be surprised if he retired this year.
Novichok  4 | 8768
2 days ago   #1348
Given how modern England is the champion of the cause of fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian

...which makes Brits war criminals - right along with Putin whose "war crime" was saving kids from deaths. What a bastard...

Now they want the US to bail out Ukraine?

I never thought that one day I would hate these parasites as much as I do now.
Bobko  27 | 2240
2 days ago   #1349
Equipment sent was probably welcome

The most important aid from the United States were the (1) Willys Jeeps and (2) Studebaker US6 trucks.

We received 50,000 Jeeps, and 150,000 Studebaker trucks.

The Jeeps were used for command, reconnaissance, and medevac.

The Studebakers were crucial to logistics, able to lift 2.5 tons.

Without the Jeeps and trucks the Red Army would have advanced much more slowly.

But that's probably the most impactful aid received. The other important items were locomotives, rail cars, boots, canned food, uniforms, and pharmaceuticals (penicillin, morphine, etc).

As far as tanks, guns, planes, armored cars, small arms, and munitions were concerned - not a meaningful fraction proportional to Soviet domestic production.

Still - Russians still call all SUV's "Jeeps". Companies like John Deere and Caterpillar still have massive respect.

People still remember American SPAM, and now Russians eat SPAM too.

The help was enormous, and was most appreciated. But did it decide the war? I don't think so - here I would agree with Barney.

Without US help, the war would have still ended in a Russian victory, but likely closer to 1946-1947 - and with significantly higher casualties.

The reason I argue this, is because the German war machine broke under Moscow long before US help started arriving in mass quantities.

The Germans miscalculated big time - they thought (as Hitler said) that they would kick down the door, and the whole house would come crashing down. When the house did not collapse, that's when the Germans should have already known they were cooked. You can't knockout a country like Russia, in the same way you can France.
Barney  19 | 1763
2 days ago   #1350
Even Russia admits...could not have accomplished anything in Poland or elsewhere

That is simply untrue. I don't care how much treasure the US spent in Europe or elsewhere, they gained more than they spent.


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