Poland's aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 19

Don't forget cms is British and not Polish. The Brits sucked smug self-superiority with their mothers milk.

Polish just like you - with the added bonus of living here and paying taxes and sending my Polish kids to a Polish school

North Nigeria's achievements? Since 1991 ? Let's list them

Successful invasion of North Ossetia
Semi finals in Euro 2008 football
Probably a few olympic medals where they didn't cheat or get them withdrawn post factum

Any more ?

Poland send over 700 tanks in the first six months of the war,
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like why this twat strzelec not banned right away?

Romanian bro is obviously anti-jew... 🙂

"Rosenberg, who just happens to be jewish." 😉

Gorbachev discloses Who destroyed USSR, why West hates Putin,
(because) "Putin knows everything"

Might be, but they behave in a way I don't give a damn about that.


Just to enslave us themselves.

Sorry but all through history we could only expect harm from them. And if we are brethren it makes their act in Ukraine even worse.

@GefreiterKania
From the American perspective Europe has not paid into NATO as agreed for thirty years. Thats not someone saying it, its a fact. The US has always been the backbone of NATO largely out of tradition. Europe though has not taken steps to make itself independent of the US. Thats not the fault of the US citizens, it is the fault of lifetime politicians in the EU and the US. They have gotten fat off of the people who have paid for it. Now Trump comes along and points out whats been obvious for decades and the EU gets upset. Trump comes along and upsets the grifters in DC who have been robbing the country blind and the lefties get mad at Trump for making their theft public. Its a fvcked up world we are living in.

Is the timing bad for the US to begin taking care of itself and puting its interests first? Yes. But timing isnt everything, and these positions within the US are long overdue. The EU is long overdue to have its own plan for security. Its not like we all didnt see Trumps win coming months if not a year ago. Only fools believed in Harris or Biden. Turns out some of the biggest fools were France, and Germany.

Poland will be fine as long as Tusk is kept under control. As long as he is held at bey on the EU agenda Poland will continue to prosper and the economy will grow despite some of the things happening now. The war ending will have some immediate and positive effects for Poland. Rental housing prices will fall quickly once the demand is gone and attention can be turned to spending money on Polish agendas and Poles. Not a bad net result.

Was USA paying the difference for the countries that paid in less?
Did any country paying less ever evoked article 5 and used the NATO power?

Another excellent post PolAm.
However you are wasting your time trying to pound that thru these ungrateful cocky ass Europeans in denial heads.
They have posted such stupid shlt like Europe could take on Russia and win without NATO. lol
They have posted that the United States has given them nothing and has done nothing for them.
Now that Trump has had a belly full of these ungrateful Welfare Leeches and cutting their free meal ticket off the crying starts.
Putting America first might just afford our children free college and free healthcare instead of paying for Europe's protection while they refuse to.
We told you Leeches that Trump fix it by wiping that grin off your face.
Start tightening your belts and mouth.
Trump should have his two middle finger insured by Lloyd's of London for a Trillion $.


I have never used the fire insurance that I have on my house either but it was there if I would have need it.

...Euro pigs squeal to confirmwe picked the right guy for president...

Hey, pigs, who would you vote for if you could - Trump or Kamala?

But what really pi$$es me off are their claims that defending Europe is good for us...

Memo to Euros: Please, die. If you did way back, there would be no NATO, no trade deficit, no world wars, no fascism, no communism, no death camps, and American graves ...

Just in....so new its still warm:


bild.de/politik/ausland-und-internationales/europas-eigener-nuklearer-schutzschild-frankreichs-schluesselrolle-67bd827cd1e5ac3c115e31ed

😮

Oh, dear... the old timer went full retard.


Good.

Germany, Poland, Romania and Finland should have their own nuclear forces. If France can help with that, I would consider forgiving them all their past sins. ;)

F to G: You do it...

Another excellent post by an American.
Where did all the Woke foreigners go to debate us on this issue ?
Oh that's right, Liberals can't debate the facts.

@GefreiterKania


Like the one the Russians enjoyed over the Ukrainians. With the added bonus that the Russians did not simply have better weapons, they also had far more of them. Like I said, the Russians had ten times as many planes, all of which were 1 or 2 generations ahead. They should have gained air superiority with ease.

What doomed them was a mixture of overconfidence and Ukrainian ingenuity. The Ukrainians were smart enough to move planes and anti-aircraft systems immediately before they could be destroyed. The Russians did not anticipate that and their pilots assumed since they had been so "succesful" in Syria, they would easily prevail here. Turns out that bombing civilians in Syria who can't fire back is not the best combat experience, hence their high losses in the first few days of the war.


Nevertheless old. And like I said, very helpful, but to suggest that those deliveries would have given the Ukrainians the edge by themselves is preposterous given their small number. You may wanna look up how the strength disparity looked at the beginning of the war and how even now Ukraine is severely short on e.g. artillery ammunition. Russia could afford to throw more tanks away at Vuhledar alone.

Crucially the retreats from Kiev and Kharkiv provided the Ukrainians with hundreds of captured tanks, which allowed them to keep fighting.

oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html?m=1

You seem to be unaware of how just many weapon systems the Russians inadvertedly provided the Ukrainians with due to their failed push at Kiev and their defeat at Kharkiv. And those are just the ones that have been confirmed. Which goes back to very poor planning and leadership on the Russian side.


Very bad examples. Both were more guerilla wars, which required a completely different approach, with the terrain given the defenders decisive advantages. In Vietnam the USA even had the handicap of not being able to bomb the North Vietnamese supply lines. Experts thought that the Ukrainian army would be quickly defeated and that a guerilla war would be the only option available to Ukraine. Turns out the Russians are unable to even get to this stage.


Sure. Luckily for Poland, Stalin turned out to be a bad general which cost them the battle at the Vistula when he failed to properly reinforce the Soviet army. They don't call it Miracle on the Vistula because it was a sure thing for the Poles.

The US and Russia should jointly prevent Euros from having even forks and knives.

Two were enough. Azzholes...

One more time for you thick headed foreigners.....ya ready?
The Vietnam war was a political war and was not designed to be won or lost on the battle field
Ever hear of "Rules of Engagement."
Did ya get it that time Morons.

What kind of war is non political?

Maybe you could answer that for us Barns.
You do know how to Google don't you.

Speak to Britain, India or Pakistan. Mind you, the current generation of U.K. warheads that are now coming to the end of their life were bought (at great cost) from an American company (though the earlier generation are apparently all mothballed and in perfect condition ready to be primed as needed). Given the current issues within NATO, I'd guess the new generation will be sourced within Europe, probably within the U.K (we did after all invent the things).

Why provide well-paid jobs for yank workers and dividends for yank investors when their government is being arsey about money. The customer is king and there's no reason whatsoever to buy anything from companies there when their current regime start talking trash about tariffs or trying to interfere in internal political matters.

Invent what things ?

@johnny reb
Unsuprisingly you just made up some rubbish you cant defend.

Nope, it has been explained so many times here in so many ways and boneheads like you are stuck om stupid to absorb the facts so why waste my time with idiots like you.
Google it for yourself and learn.

Invent what things, jon ?
You kind of twisted that into a confusing remark.

@johnny reb
Very poor excuse. Tell me what type of war is non political

I think I can rest now. A decade ago few people would agree, 20 years ago if you mention it people were looking at you as if you were a nutter.
I see people in Poland growing in wisdom and understanding that such things as nukes for Poland are goods of daily necessity, not luxury items.

I have one. I hug it every day before breakfast.

Now I know why the US army is in Poland. It's there as adult supervision. Nothing to do with Russia.

I know, you do have everything. From guns to nukes in your house, you even have a tank or two parked next to your Lexus.
We all know it Novi, You are a certified nutter and you need your wife's supervision.

Not gonna respond to each of your claims point by point... but this one deserves some attention.

Ukraine, circa 2021, had the second largest army in Europe. The largest military on the continent was of course Russia's.

During the times of the Cold War, the most capable Soviet divisions were based in Germany and the Czech Republic. Within the Soviet Union itself, the absolute majority of "front line" units were based in Ukraine and Belarus. This is reflected in the disproportionate amount of armor, artillery, and aircraft that Ukraine inherited after the dissolution of the USSR.

This article from 2016, provides the following comparisons for certain key items:

"Ukraine, for example, currently operates more than 2,800 tanks-compared with 423 in France, 407 in the U.K., and 408 in Germany.

And Ukraine's arsenal comprises 625 multiple launch rocket systems-compared with 44 in France, 42 in the U.K., and Germany's 50."

Source: realcleardefense.com/articles/2016/12/12/largest_land_armies_in_europe_on_the_edge_of_war_110473.amp.html

That's just tanks and rocket artillery. But they also had a monstrous amount of armored personnel carriers - 8,219 according to a pre-war link.

The tank and afv figures represent a roughly 2:3 proportion to what Russia possessed.

In addition to this, Ukraine had an air force of approximately 500 planes of all types - including at least 50 jet fighters, and more than a hundred assault and transport helicopters.

Two of Ukraine's ammunition depots (Cobasna and Balakleya), were Europe's largest and second largest depots respectively. They have a dozen others besides these. Containing tens of thousands of tons of ammunition, intended for a Soviet war with the West.

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So Ukraine was stuffed full of weapons and ammunition, hosted elite assault formations intended to fight NATO armies, and even received strategic bombers and submarines from the USSR (the bombers were bought back by Russia in the late 90s).

What was Russia's situation then? Russia, in Soviet times, hosted a mass of reserve formations. A pretty typical strength level was 30-40% of nominal strength. Only to be filled out during a mass mobilization in the event of a "big war". The oldest and least usable equipment was stockpiled in Russia.

Coming into 1991, Russia had a military that was not substantially better than Ukraine's in its land component. Remember, that circa 1991 Ukraine started with an authorized force of 800,000 men. Only after many years of cuts did it go below 200K.

The gap with Ukraine widened between 1991 and 2022. They were busy selling every piece of working equipment to places like Pakistan and Thailand, while producing exactly zero new kit. Russia also sold a lot of its stockpiles abroad, but unlike Ukraine it actually continued production of the most critical items - preserving the technical cadres and supply chains in the process.

However, even given a thirty year opportunity to gain a serious quantitative and qualitative advantage over Ukraine - Russia didn't make all that much progress. Unlike the Ukrainians, we have a navy and a strategic nuclear deterrent to maintain - and these demand astronomic amounts of money. Within the ground forces, that bear most of the burden of this war - the thirty years of "opportunity" provided maybe:

1) Several hundred T-90 tanks of all modifications. Compare to total fleet size of 3,000+ tanks. So we can see - most tanks were Soviet, and just as old as Ukraine's.

2) Again several hundred BTR-82A armored personnel carriers, and several hundred modernized BMP-3 infantry fighting vehicles.

3) Several thousand new armored cars, and MRAP type vehicles.

Appreciating the enormous size of Ukraine's military, is part of the process of coming to appreciate why Russia may pose a threat to Europe. Personally I am skeptical of this idea of Russia invading further west, but this important context is one of the things that does give me pause.

Even after its billion dollar orders to Korea and America, it would take Poland many-many years to approach a level of Ukraine's militarization in 2022. Most Polish persons and other interested parties are not aware of this simple fact.

Instead everybody sees themselves as the "key player" who saved poor little Ukraine. The reality is that even a large country like Poland could cover at most 5% of Ukraine's needs without hollowing itself out.

Wrong Bobko - only one country thinks they have single handedly saved Ukraine, and even they only started saying that last week.

Poland, Britain, France, Czech, Korea, Sweden, Canada, Germany, Australia, Japan, Italy, the Baltics, Holland and many others all know it was a team effort - the decent countries of the world against the NNNs, the Iranian muslim fundamentalist, fascist North Koreans and Commie chinese

@Tacitus

I don't like to call it "Miracle on the Vistula river". It suggests either luck or supernatural intervention when in fact it was Piłsudski's tactical skill and Polish soldiers' grit and bravery. The name was invented by Piłsudski's enemies to downplay the Good Marshal's role in the victory.

@Bobko

OK, so huge post-Soviet stockpiles saved Ukraine from defeat.

What saved Russia from defeat though would seem to be nuclear weapons, or rather the distant possibility of Russia using them.

It might seem not so obvious in retrospect but the initial shock of the invasion was so huge, and the level of direct threat perceived by many European NATO members so high that in the absence of nuclear weapons we would definitely have had a huge conventional pan-European war in Ukraine. A war that Russia would lose.