Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps'

@mafketis
It's nice to realise there are still people with some common sense like you.
Thank you.

Poland's anti-defamation law has been a longtime coming.

Proof of this is an excellent video report from 2016 which shows the no-nonsense Radio Rampa Editor-in-Chief Monika Adamska tackling Zionist Polonophobia head-on in the streets of New York City and their pathetic attempt to spread lies blaming Poland and Poles for the Holocaust:

youtu.be/fGe2PuzqkkE

It was simply hilarious seeing these so-called demonstrators failing over and over and over again to answer any basic questions about what they were actually "protesting" about.

One complete idiot thought the Second World War began in 1941 and then cited Jan Gross to express "conviction" that the Polish Underground "killed more Jews than they did Nazis"!

Another never heard of Jedwabne despite being in the same crowd which was chanting at the prompting of their rabbi "your land is drenched in blood!"

A third had absolutely no idea who either Jan Karski and Irena Sendlerowa were.

Well, they should have at least been honest with themselves and held up signs which read "We're Dumb and We're Proud of It!"

Or extricate themselves from a situation that has caused them international embarrassment.

I don't think PiS give that much of a damn about international embarrassment or ridicule Jon. They've been attacked by most mainstream foreign media pretty much since they won the elections and they are plowing on with their elections promises.

I think they just don't want to cause too much friction with the USA and Israel [particularly the USA] but also know they cant repeal the law, otherwise people in Poland would turn on them.

If the Constitutional Tribunal points out some flaws in the law and PiS changes it, they think it won't look as bad as changing it because Israel and the USA told them too. I'm not sure people in Poland will buy it though.

Any Pole to whom Irena Sendler, Jan Karski, and Leopold Socha are completely foreign, meaningless names, should go back to third grade...and graduate!
:-)

Why only Poles? Poles know these names. Yet they are unknown to lots of foreigners, some of them regulars here apparently, who talk about Polish death camps or of all Poles being antisemitic.

Yesterday was the anniversary of the Ulma family's death - parents and six children.They were killed for hiding Jews. The mother was pregnant. The labour started as she was shot apparently.

I've known about them since college, not exactly recently!

I love Poland and Slavic people, and support the law 100%

One can love someone, yet criticize them too. Unconditional love needn't necessarily always mean unconditional surrender to stupidity, bigotry or oppression, does it?
Seems many of us have at best a rather parochial notion of "love".

What about the "Holocaust denial" law (which the Polish one is modelled on) you Jews pushed down the throats of many countries ? Is it a matter of stupidity, bigotry or oppression ?

No, it isn't. If it was, it would be written to explicitly target the issue and not be worded so badly.

Germany has been so traumatized that it's certainly understandable that the gov't tends to go a bit over the top by our standards in prohibiting even innocently joking about Hitler, as was the case with those Chinese tourists several months back, who got into some hot water with the police when one of them started doing a mock goose step right in front of the Brandenburg Gate:-)

Poland might well draw a lesson here.

Heh Poland had it all easy, a breeze. You claim to be a history teacher - you're so ignorant and clues that is not even funny anymore.

Poland was one of the victims. Germany was one of the assaulters.
Will you please stop blaming the victim and justifying the assaulter, Lyzko?
As for history teaching, I remember when you had to be told about the damage of Warsaw after the uprising.
Poor Germany was traumatised- a good one ...
In the meantime, another person of Jewish origin is killed in France in hate crime.

He's not going to give up until you take on the new semi-official Russian line that Poland began WWII and therefore is ever more guilty than Germany.

He desperately wants Polish people to feel collective guilt for the holocaust, the fact that they don't drives him crazy.


So restrictions on free speech are good? What do you think about the dankula case?

I scarcely advocate these sorts of "restrictions", as you term them. However, rampant denial of truth ain't so hot either.

You claim to be a thinking person, Ironside, yet I'm still waiting for evidence of such, and figure I'll be waiting a long time!

Poles, I might remind you, don't have to justify themselves whenever they've visited abroad, regretfully awaiting somebody from behind a corner listening to them speak their language and being called "Dirty #$%%%-krauts!", or worse!!

Germany remains stigmatized to this very day, paying for the sins of the fathers. Is that fair either?

Nope it isn't fair. I'm a great believer in remembering, honouring and learning from horrific events of the past, but not in eternally playing the victims, particularly if those who are playing them aren't the actual victims. I'm also against blaming people of the same nationality, colour, religion etc. of those who do or once did something terrible, hence I don't believe modern day Germans have anything to feel guilty about.

I don't think Poland is nation that constantly plays the victim or points the finger at Germany for what they did in the war, but recently some have tried to unfairly blame them for the Holocaust, so they had to fight back. As for the reparations stuff, again, it hasn't been brought up for a long time and probably still wouldn't have been, had the [German led] EU not constantly been hounding Poland and interfering in their rule of law. Mentioning reparations from the Second World War was Poland's way of saying, 'okay, you wanna play hard ball, here's an invoice for all the damages you caused all those decades ago.'

Let's just level the playing field a little, that's all I was trying to say.

While Germany committed countless, unspeakable atrocities against humanity, regrettably, Poland too had her share of turncoats and traitors.
Jewish kapos aren't a fair comparison, since in the first place, they represented the minority and in the second place, nearly EVERYONE played the Black Market in those days, then as now.

Not a pretty picture once again, but sad to say, it's the truth.

The fact is that most Poles behaved admirably during the war.Many going even too far.
The repercussions to a Poles family for helping Jews was worse than in any other country in Europe.
And still,many Poles took that risk and helped Jews....
There were some bad Poles.
There were some bad Jews.
There were many bad Germans and Russians.
Many Polish Jews did join the Polish army later and fought bravely.
I have never heard any stories of Jews helping Poles though.
But many of the reverse when some Jews conspired with The Russians against Poles.

By 'level the playing field' you mean have Poland share the responsibility of the Holocaust with the Germans, but not discuss any of the Jews who committed atrocities against their own people, right?

Lyzko's typology

Germans - poor souls! Haven't they suffered enough?

Poles who cooperated with nazis under threat of death - Scum! More guilty than the nazis!

Poles who tried to save Jews - Slackers! didn't do enough!

Jews who cooperated with nazis - Poor things!

@Lyzko.
So you're saying Jewish kapos were just a minority (what about the Jewish Police and other collaborators? ). So what about Poles? Are you suggesting Polish collaborators were not a minority?????

You're feeling sorry for Germans that they keep being called dirty krauts but you're ok accusing the majority of Poles of betrayal and antisemitism?

Let me explain it to you:
On September 1, 1939 Germany attacked Poland. From day one they started killing both soldiers and civilians, bombing railways, hospitals etc. Watch 'the Siege' by Julien Bryan. Watch Roosevelt's response to the documentary.

So while your family watched Hollywood films, played baseball or whatever, hundreds of thousands of Poles were killed. German troops would enter villages and kill all men. They burned synagogues, too.

Soon ghettos and concentration camps were set up. The first reports were made by Poles ... and ignored.
Your family kept living their ordinary lives. Mine were sent to Germany. Along with millions of others. Poor German bauers, factory owners etc who had to deal with the fact all those Poles were sent back home in 1945. It must have been traumatic. The Poles came back to a ruined country. They were happy they had survived. Some didn't.

Both ethnic Poles and Polish Jews suffered from Nazis - most of them were German. There were collaborators, both Polish and Jewish. They were a minority. There were good Germans - they were a minority, too.

So will you - whose family didn't face the German atrocities - stop judging others.

He wants Polish people to accept the same kind of collective guilt that Germans do, once they say "We're all guilty!" he's ready to be magnanimous.

He wants to be as kind to Polish people as he is to Germans... but he can't until they declare that all Poles share collective guilt for the holocaust.

It's kind of like church were God loves you and will forgive you.... as soon as you admit your sins and ask for forgiveness.

Looks like Daniels can't stay out of Poland. He briefly went a little quiet on the Polish front and I quietly hoped he would take his claws out of Poland, but he was recently invited to wPolsce [again], an internet news show by the Karnowski brothers and has been tweeting about Poland more and more.

It's a shame, I like the Karnowski brothers. I don't know why they feel the need to push this guy in to people's faces. I assume, since they're very pro-PiS, if PiS welcome him, they feel they should be promoting him too.

Interesting thing to consider. Tyrmand and Daniels are supposed to be very good friends, yet Tyrmand doesn't like the Karnowski brothers one bit and has even been blocked by their magazine Sieci on twitter for constantly criticising them.

Daniels on the other hand, did an interview with Sieci not so long ago and appears on their internet TV news show wPolsce from time to time. Wonder how this makes Tyrmand feel?

@mafketis
I really don't understand him.

Easy to simplify history, far harder to understand, indeed to finally accept, its complexities.

No, I'm not saying for the umpteenth time that Polish complicitors were "the majority". All I am saying is that for as many collaborators on the other side, Poles too had their share of them as well.

Miroslaw is of course historically correct in saying that in no other European country was the punishment for aiding and abetting Jews in flight more severe than in Poland.

I for one I am completely okay with you saying that, but what bothers me is that while you make that [true] statement, you are not willing to make the same [true] statement about Jews who collaborated. For some reason you seem so focused on the Polish collaborators. Is there any particular reason for this?

That's the whole point.
I guess it's because it's really hard to accept that your own people may be such scum.
It's not easy for Polish people to hear there were Polish collaborators. But be brave and admit there were Jewish collaborators, too.
Also, from my personal point of view, it keeps amazing me how little some know about what happened to ethnic Poles and how they suffered too. Nowadays, the official narrative requires us to share the guilt for the Holocaust. What about our suffering?

If they don't know about it, they can't be blamed for not caring (so they make sure to stay ignorant of it).

Lyzko should watch this movie, the visuals are authentic film taken at the time (computer colorized).

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powstanie_Warszawskie_(film)

It's on youtube for free (and it will help his Polish).

youtube.com/watch?v=wJbt638ZdwM

Oy vey ! The same nonsense again and again.

It's not only "kapos", the camps folks were in extreme situation, so I would leave them alone but...

1. "Jewish Police" and similar stuff were established long before the Holocaust really started so "but they tried to save their lives" line doesn't really work, you dudes now complain how little Poles were doing to help when in fact quite a few Poles smuggling food into ghettoes or people out of them, were actually caught and handed to "Nazis" by your friggin "police".

2. There were millions of Jews outside of occupied territories, in the US, UK, Soviet Russia, even in Africa. What have they done ? Some US Jews were serving in the army but just like any other ethnic groups. When Polish gov in exile were sending people to America with info about the Holocaust, the US Jews were laughing at them. Were they collecting any money and sending it to occupied Europe ? If they just collected 1 friggin dollar a month per person, that could help a lot, both Goys and Jews. There were 40k Jews in friggin Argentina alone, did they set up a single company of volunteers to fight the "Nazis" ? A platoon ?? Thousands of Jews deserted from the Polish "free" forces, when Polish Goys were dying (sometimes by thousands in a single battle) fighting "Nazis", they were sitting in Palestine !

3. Jews were heavily involved in the regime no less genocidal than "Nazis". Now about half of Jews claim their grandparents were "Holocaust survivors" but quite likely there's more folks in Israel with grandparents serving in NKVD. I'm fairly sure the number of Poles killed by Jews is higher than vice versa, by several times. Hopefully the international commission will be finally set up to estimate these figures.

Do you Jews admit / discuss / apologize for any of facts listed above ? You scream friggin anti-semitism if any of that is mentioned ! Have you ever apologized for anything ? Or admitted you have ever done anything wrong ? You want us to feel quilty, apologize, pay compensation because on 17th October 1942 Stanisław K. from village X reported to "Nazis" that there's a Jews hiding in his barn, when you Jews allowed thousands of Stalin era murderers to die peacefully in their beds. You've got to be kidding me. You want to get something from us for your "suffering" ? Here it goes, **** on the stick, take it and enjoy :)))