Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps'

Yes, and now **** off!


Are you claiming to be a historian? lol! Up to 1941 Jews were in better position than Poles in both German and Soviet occupation.

I hope you don't really believe this. Jews faced the same hardships as other Poles (since they were Poles before) while already being widely discriminated before 1841 and denied most civil services.

@G (undercover)


Interesting how this thread confirms the stereotype that antisemtism is still prevalent in Poland. T

There we go - I knew somebody would eventually say this.

'Oh what, you have some criticisms of the actions of Jewish people? Anti-Semite!!!!'

We're going off every which way, people!

@kaprys, the Judenraete were an attempt by Germany's Jewish minority to appease Hitler, this is true and can be documented. As a history teacher, I'd be a fool if I were to say any different.

The fact is, as jon admirably seconded, that during times of struggle, even victims are forced to make most unenviable choices, among those, the choice between deciding who should live and who should die. Usually, it's the wrong choice.

If fellow Jews who also lived through the hell of the ghetto (without sending others to death or taking their money for false promises) looked down on them, why do you defend them?

They were a disgrace who betrayed their own people.

Admitted, yet it cuts both ways too, you know.

In what way?
I would never defend a szmalcownik.

You probably wouldn't have "defended" a mother willing to slay an SS-officer who'd all but attempted to wrench her child away from her, and yet, as you well know, life/history's just filled with justifiable homicides.

Killing for pure pleasure, personal gain or sport (the Nazis and their followers) cannot philosophically or morally stand comparison with killing in order to simply stay alive and protect one's family, can it?

That whole post makes no sense.... try again.

You're simultaneously trying to excuse any Jewish behavior and instill feelings of collective guilt in kaprys and that's a very nasty thing to do.

No human being born in 1945 or after should feel one shread of collective guilt for the holocaust, it's unhealty and morbid and sick. Sadness that it happened? Yes. Guilt? No.

Any more unhealthy, morbid and sick than I as a white man, a post Civil War Northern Jew feeling a collective "remorse", if not indirect responsibility, for the horrors of Southern slavery??! I too believe in "Never forget!". For this reason alone, I decided to remain a college professor in order to convince both myself and my students that the burdens of one's skin color need never stand in the way of pursuing personal success:-)

Feeling, thinking beings realize that placing Nazi crimes on the SAME scale of moral guilt with those of Nazim's victims, much like Hannah Arendt suggested, are almost hopelessly deluded.

feeling bad that it happened is normal, feeling responsibility for it is abnormal (and sign of an ego out of control)


rather like the insistence of some Israelis that Poles (in general) were complicit in nazi crimes....

@Lyzko
Don't change the topic. We're not talking about mothers trying to defend their children. We're talking about Nazi collaborators - Polish, Jewish or of any other nation, they should be condemned.

And they were condemned by their fellow Poles and Jews respectively contemporary to them so don't try to bleach them now.

wykop.pl/ramka/4225593/wedlug-muzeum-holokaustu-tak-wyglada-polka-niosaca-zydowke-do-gestapo

Here's a photo of a Polish woman carrying herJewish neighbour to Gestapo. Source: the Holocaust museum. For some strange reason, the photo has been removed, but the description is still there.

I would suggest to scrap the law. If Israel and Americans can't respect Polish law (which was kind of provocative) then they can get their little "reward". Still ain't getting a dime from Poland. Poland puts Poland's citizens first and foremost. If they left Poland after WW2 that was THEIR choice

This can't be done for one very simple reason, explained already. It would lose PiS a lot of support if they give in to Israeli and US pressure.

Do you think they could amend it so that it only applies in Poland, or would it be seen the same way?

It seems that the law itself has done a lot of harm to Ziobro's position within the party in particular, because it caused PiS to get involved in a fight with the US that they didn't want or need.

Apparently they're looking at changing it so that it doesn't apply to 'foreigners' as they've now decided that it may be unconstitutional. I suppose the logistics of suing the world and his wife have finally hit home.

more weirdness thinking, I can see it applying to everyone in Poland (and maybe Polish citizens everywhere) but...

gotta link?

I think it was also very obvious that they would be baited through large billboards on the other side of the Oder and so on.

@Maf, here you go, the article also covers the proposed changes to the judicial reform law :

eu/article/poland-law-and-justice-retreats-on-controversial-laws/

Oy vey. It "confirms" what you want to be "confirmed". How about you list here all the achievements of the Jews during WW2 If you apparently don't agree with my post ?


And that's some kind of... excuse ?

Folks, the Jews were under the gun and did what they'd always done ever since the Middle Ages drove them into becoming usurious pawnbrokers, forbidden from joining the "Christian" guilds; they did whatever necessary in order to survive.

Leave us here not debate the sheer idiocy of what's the difference between Jews killing Nazis vs. Nazis killing Jews, 'cuz it's lose-lose no matter how you slice it.

Hell, even their own people abandoned them in their hour of direst need!! You don't believe me, just check out that movie "Nirgendwo in Afrika", when

some German-Jewish refugees were politely but insistently informed by a local Jewish official that they weren't welcome to stay there and might have to return to Germany...or emigrate elsewhere, like the States (...which didn't want many of them either, you know).

Let's stop casting stones before we know all the facts!

That's not what anyone is 'debating' the question is do Poles who were complicit with the nazis have a greater burden of guilt than Jews who cooperated with nazis?

My take: six of one half a dozen of another

And all I'm saying is that it was exclusively the Jews of Poland (the Sinti-Roma too, I'll grant you) whom the Nazis slated for total annihilation! The gentile Poles were naturally slaughtered as well, although were technically permitted to live, albeit doomed to a life of eternal slavery to their German overlords.

Neither scenario's pretty, however, the non-Jews were in the end at least given chance to survive intact, so long as they kowtowed to the Nazis.

The distinction while subtle, remains significant.

Not to anyone born afer 1945....

And the irony here is that we have certain people here who want all Poles to feel responsible for what those who collaborated did. While their own families were safe and sound, my grandparents were forced labourers.

And mind you, only Poles should feel responsible for Poles who collaborated. Other nations and ethicities are excused.
Sometimes the accusations are as ridiculous as the one with the photo I mentioned. If you say anything, you're accused of antisemitism.

Extremely so, however that doesn't of course fit with the toxic PiS narrative.

I think that people will see through it. I am sure that they were already suspicious of Duda passing it on to the Constitutional Tribunal after he signed it, something we wouldn't have done if Israel and the USA had not kicked up such a fuss. Any changes the tribunal makes will be looked at as appeasing those two countries, although if it is just the one change, that the tribunal has raised concerns over so far, it might not get quite the uproar as it would have it say, the tribunal said the entire law was unconstitutional, something the lying Israeli media has already stated in some of its headlines to confuse people.

Either way PiS are definitely doing what they can do appease both sides.


I thought the change was that the law wouldn't apply abroad? Foreigners who come to Poland and break this law, would still be punished I assume.

it absolutely infuriates some that that is not the case... the guilt is supposed to collective and eternal and any deviation from that drives them mad with rage

That is BS. Extreme BS spew by the people who are either scum or retarded ignoramus. Do I have to repeat myself?
Plus a fact that some Israeli narrative seems to be taping the same vein again and again, that not only Germans during the WWII done their thing but the others the non-Jews were complicit because they ALL hate the Jews.

AH and Jews are sacred cows in this narrative, just above ethic or morality and particularly are not to be measured the same as all those lesser beings.

I cannot stress enough that it is a toxic, racist, tribal and reprehensible narrative due to some surreally messed up people its created. It might be useful for Israel to have its population on the war footing all the time but other than that it stinks.

1.Beside there is no collective guilt or responsibility if a country in question didn't cooperate with Germany during the war.
2. As for all individual responsibility it ends on those who were adults during the war.

Lzyko your ancestors immigrated to the USA before the war. So you should keep your trap shut. If anything their are complicit in not moving a finger to help their Jewish brothers in need during the war. Just for you to point that finger on others. You have no shame do you?