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GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE KOPERNIK (COPERNICUS)! OUTRAGE!


Aik
14 Jul 2014 #931
CaptainH00k , Maria Curie Sklodowska didn't have german grandparent. Her family tree is well researched.
Her grandparents were: Jozef Sklodowski+Salomea Sagdynska and Feliks Boguski+Maria Zaruska.
Ziemowit 14 | 4,230
14 Jul 2014 #932
CaptainH00k , Maria Curie Sklodowska didn't have german grandparent. Her family tree is well researched.

Are trying to tell us that the Germans who have wanted to germanize Kopernik, they now try to germanize Marie Curie (by now, through the Polish Forum only, but who knows how far they are prepared to go ahead with it) !?

Good Lord! That is really outrageous!!!
ich_heissen_joe
15 Jul 2014 #933
CaptainH00k , Maria Curie Sklodowska didn't have german grandparent. Her family tree is well researched.
Her grandparents were: Jozef Sklodowski+Salomea Sagdynska and Feliks Boguski+Maria Zaruska.

Many ethnic Germans had Polish/Slavic names. That doesn't prove anything.

Either way, Marie Curie did go to Gymnasium Number 3 which was a school heavily influenced by the German way of learning.

books.google.com/books?id=bteAVVwkeUIC&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=marie+curie+german+ancestry&source=bl&ots=8QysPzNC3l&sig=mVXyeqkmKqNqQMGshVA4Z67A_wU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fXbEU-3pCpajyASsloLACg&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=marie%20curie%20german%20ancestry&f= false

Are trying to tell us that the Germans who have wanted to germanize Kopernik, they now try to germanize Marie Curie (by now, through the Polish Forum only, but who knows how far they are prepared to go ahead with it) !?

Germanize Copernicus? Have you been paying attention to this thread? The idea of nationality in the time of Copernicus was very different from what we view as national identity. If we had to pick though, Copernicus was definitely more German than Polish. He spoke German for sure while there is little evidence that he could speak Polish. Not to mention, there is genetic evidence that Copernicus was more likely an ethnic German.

dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/07/y-chromosome-mtdna-and-eye-color-of.html
Aik
15 Jul 2014 #934
Many ethnic Germans had Polish/Slavic names. That doesn't prove anything.

Well, that's not only the matter of names. Maria Curie Sklodowska simply didn't have a German grandparent. Both sides of her family came from minor Polish nobility and you can easily trace back her ancestry, not only her grandparents, but great grandparents and so on. If she had some recent German ancestry, it would be surely mentioned in the sources. The info about her "German grandparent" was apparently pulled from someone's a$$.

Btw. Slavic names of "many Germans" might suggest their Slavic ancestry. But you still consider them ethnic Germans. Don't you?

Either way, Marie Curie did go to Gymnasium Number 3 which was a school heavily influenced by the German way of learning.

If you say so. There are plenty of not particularly intelligent or successful Germans. Are they also a product of German way of learning?
Maria came from Russian part of Poland. Prussian part of Poland with fully German education system didn't produce Polish scientists of that caliber. Why is that?

Germans are not that different from other ethnic groups. They are not some superior race, they are not some pure race, and German influence is not a necessary condition to "produce" people like Maria.

Not to mention, there is genetic evidence that Copernicus was more likely an ethnic German.

Haplogroup R1b is present in many ethnic groups and only some 50% percent of German men have it. Are you saying that the other half of male population in Germany is not really German? Are you claiming that German males with haplogroup R1a are not really Germans?

These haplogroups are thousands years old. They appeared in times when "Germans" and "Poles" didn't even existed.

You know, the 19th century, the century of great discoveries, was the period when Polish elite as a whole was more concerned about regaining independence from Prussia, Austria and Russia than about scientific achievements that would not be considered Polish anyway, but rather Prussian, Austrian and Russian or French! Maria Curie Sklodowska named her discovery Polonium to remind people in the West about the faith of Poland and own origins.
ich_heissen_joe
15 Jul 2014 #935
Both sides of her family came from minor Polish nobility and you can easily trace back her ancestry, not only her grandparents, but great grandparents and so on

I'm not saying I don't believe you but it would be nice to see some links proving that.

If she had some recent German ancestry, it would be surely mentioned in the sources.

That's a very naive assumption.

Prussian part of Poland with fully German education system didn't produce Polish scientists of that caliber. Why is that?

Probably because great scientists like Maria were very rare among Poles in both the Prussian and Russian areas. A German education can only do so much. Polish culture doesn't emphasize education and the desire to invent/discover things like German culture does.

Germans are not that different from other ethnic groups. They are not some superior race, they are not some pure race, and German influence is not a necessary condition to "produce" people like Maria.

No one is saying that are a superior race. However, as I mentioned before, German culture does stress education and hard work. There is a reason why Germany has contributed far more to science than Poland has.

Furthermore, the Germanic countries (Germany, England, Holland, Denmark, etc.) have also contributed much more to science than all the Slavic countries. Perhaps there is something about the competitive nature of Germanic people that has something to do with this. After all, we are talking about the people who managed to take out the Roman Empire.

Haplogroup R1b is present in many ethnic groups and only some 50% percent of German men have it. Are you saying that the other half of male population in Germany is not really German? Are you claiming that German males with haplogroup R1a are not really Germans?
These haplogroups are thousands years old. They appeared in times when "Germans" and "Poles" didn't even existed.

If you read carefully, you would note that I said his haplogroup is evidence for him being more likely ethnic German. R1b is far more common among German males than Polish males so it can definitely be used to assess the probably that Copernicus was closer to being of the German identity than the Polish identity.

Genetics is not needed though. The fact remains that Copernicus spoke German while there is not enough evidence to conclude he spoke Polish.
Szalawa 2 | 240
15 Jul 2014 #936
There is a reason why Germany has contributed far more to science than Poland has.

Your full of it, when your Germanic countries are busy contributing to science, only Russia had true independence. Nikola Tesla, Marry Curie, Dmitri Mendeleev. all extraordinary Slavic scientist.
jon357 75 | 22,576
15 Jul 2014 #937
only Russia had true independence

Or Serfdom and a brutal autocracy. Any sort of progress came from outside

Nikola Tesla, Marry Curie, Dmitri Mendeleev. all extraordinary Slavic scientist.

Only one of the 3 was Russian and Russia is neither the exemplifier of Slavic culture nor responsible for Marija Sklodowska Curie (whose family were repressed by the Russians) and Tesla.
Szalawa 2 | 240
15 Jul 2014 #938
Did I say all of them were Russian, no I did not. I said they were all Slavic.
jon357 75 | 22,576
15 Jul 2014 #939
Haha, I knew you'd say that, word for word. Though it changes nothing, Russia can't claim the credit for Maryja Sklodowska-Curie or Tesla in any way. Neither had anything to do with the place, although Madame Curie's family suffered under the brutal Russian occupation of Warsaw.
Szalawa 2 | 240
15 Jul 2014 #940
Haha, I knew you'd say that, word for word.

That's because its what I originally stated. Thanks for trolling though
jon357 75 | 22,576
15 Jul 2014 #941
No need to thank yourself at all, especially since you were unsuccessful.

Copernicus, whether Polish, Silesian, Warmian, Prussian or German was still part of the Western European Renaissance tradition too; the same tradition that included Galileo, Leibnitz, Newton, Priestley and Curie, all of whom faced culturally and intellectually westward and none of whom owed anything whatsoever to the less developed feudal society to the east.
Szalawa 2 | 240
15 Jul 2014 #942
Of course we don't learn about the Moors? Nor Timbuktu? a little research and you find that Copernicus cites Muslim scholars as sources for his work, very western indeed. You know what Jon, I am sick of this western superiority you guys think you have. Copernicus within Poland gave the conditions he can publish his book without being persecuted that heavily as he would have been in very "liberal" west.
jon357 75 | 22,576
15 Jul 2014 #943
a little research and you find that Copernicus cites Muslim scholars as sources for his work, very western indeed.

A little more research and you'll find that he cites the Corpus Hermeticum rather more than the lost scrolls of Timbuktu.

Copernicus within Poland gave the conditions he can publish his book without being persecuted that heavily as he would have been in very "liberal" west.

It's true that Poland has a long liberal tradition, though this has always been (and is now) more western than eastern in character. If Copernicus had had the misfortune to come from further east, we'd doubtless never have heard of him since higher learning was not valued (if it existed at all) until Peter the great's visits to Amsterdam and London.

I am sick of this western superiority you guys think you have

This from a Canadian.
.
Szalawa 2 | 240
15 Jul 2014 #944
the lost scrolls of Timbuktu.

Did I say he cites the scrolls of Timbuktu, or did I say Muslim Scholars? I mentioned Timbuktu to give praise to its scientific achievements that were ahead of its time.

This is the second time.You like doing that? Keep on trolling.

If Copernicus had had the misfortune to come from further east, we'd doubtless never have heard of him since higher learning was not valued (if it existed at all)

BS, we would not hear of him for the same reasons we do not hear of these influential Islamic scholars.
jon357 75 | 22,576
16 Jul 2014 #945
did I say Muslim Scholars?

Yes, actually, you did. Here:

a little research and you find that Copernicus cites Muslim scholars as sources

You put your foot in it there rather.

Copernicus cites Muslim scholars as source for his work, very western indeed

You were right one one point however, even though you didn't know it and were just attempting to be sarcastic. It was

very western indeed

since they were all from Spain.

Did I say he cites the scrolls of Timbuktu, or did I say Muslim Scholars? I mentioned Timbuktu to give praise to its scientific achievements that were ahead of its time.

So in fact absolutely irrelevant. And no evidence I can think of that he'd even heard of the place.

I wonder if he cited any great Russian early scientists? Thought not, and in any case he'd have to have chosen from a microscopically short list, since all intellectual development in Europe at that time was in the direction Copernicus looked. Westward.
Szalawa 2 | 240
16 Jul 2014 #946
Yes, actually, you did

Because I did say Muslim scholars, and he does. However I did not say the cite's Timbuktu. I mention Timbuktu because of you have a fallacy that west is better.

since they were all from Spain

Muslim Moors, not Spaniards.

I don't like the games you play.
jon357 75 | 22,576
16 Jul 2014 #947
Actually you did say Timbuktu, and the flowering of scholarship in Spain at that period (which by the way Copernicus didn't rely on that much; his best known achievement was proving the heliocentric theory which originated elsewhere) was definitely in Spain.

And whether Polish, German or a bit of both, he was definitely part of Mitteleuropa.
Szalawa 2 | 240
16 Jul 2014 #948
Actually you did say Timbuktu,

I used the word, but not in the content you are referring to.

And whether Polish, German or a bit of both, he was definitely part of Mitteleuropa.

Mitteleuropa, a Germanic term.
I praise Copernicus service against the Teuton dogs(hostile back stabbing knights from "Germany" which did not exist back then). Thank you copernicus for keeping Poland safe from such hostile forces.
jon357 75 | 22,576
16 Jul 2014 #949
Mitteleuropa, a Germanic term.

And therefore one that Copernicus would have felt at home with.

I praise Copernicus service against the Teuton dogs(hostile back stabbing knights from "Germany" which did not exist back then). Thank you copernicus for keeping Poland safe from such hostile forces.

You mean the Knights? I'm not sure why you'd call the builders of Marienburg "dogs" however I suppose they were eastward looking after all, unlike Copernicus, a true Middle European.
Barney 16 | 1,669
16 Jul 2014 #950
Furthermore, the Germanic countries (Germany, England, Holland, Denmark, etc.) have also contributed much more to science than all the Slavic countries. Perhaps there is something about the competitive nature of Germanic people that has something to do with this. Afterall, we are talking about the people who managed to take out the Roman Empire.

I just picked your quote as an example of the absolute nonsense typed on this thread, it's just self evidently bollox as is the crap about feudalism, anti Russia racism, mixing up the renaissance and the enlightenment and a whole catalogue of similar bollox.

The poster above (AiK) asking about the German underachievers in occupied Poland was correct there is a supercilious if not outright racist overtone to the debate.
Crow 160 | 9,195
16 Jul 2014 #951
I recall reading a study where the hair of Copernicus was analyzed and his Y chromosome signature was found to belong to the r1b haplogroup which is hard evidence that his paternal line was with high certainty German. (Most Polish men belong to the r1a haplogroup.)

that difference coming from fact that modern day Eastern Germans originates from Germanized Serbs, while Poles simple represent other branch of the Serbs (read Sarmatians).
Palivec - | 379
16 Jul 2014 #952
This thread is so 19th century. No one in the Late Middle Ages cared for nationality. That's a concept of the 19th century, and only true nationalist fight over the nationality of someone like him.

I praise Copernicus service against the Teuton dogs(hostile back stabbing knights from "Germany" which did not exist back then). Thank you copernicus for keeping Poland safe from such hostile forces.

Idiotic comment. He worked there because of his uncle, and Warmia/Ermland not only fought against the Teutonic Knights but also against Poland, because it was a semi-independent state between two bigger powers.
jon357 75 | 22,576
16 Jul 2014 #953
This thread is so 19th century. No one in the Late Middle Ages cared for nationality. That's a concept of the 19th century, and only true nationalist fight over the nationality of someone like him.

Spot on. The concept of the nation state was barely evolving then and those who cared about identity had a very different set of loyalties.

mixing up the renaissance and the enlightenment

He was dead and buried for a long time before the Enlightenment.
Szalawa 2 | 240
16 Jul 2014 #954
He worked there because of his uncle, and Warmia/Ermland not only fought against the Teutonic Knights but also against Poland, because it was a semi-independent state between two bigger powers.

any chance Copernicus was involved in any of theses raids against Poland? I don't think so. "idiotic comment"... maybe post your source.

Warmia was under the crown of Poland.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Peace_of_Thorn_(1466)
Harry
16 Jul 2014 #955
Is that why Copernicus' uncle was appointed prince-bishop against the wishes of the king of Poland?
rcon
31 Jul 2014 #956
The Polish School of Mathematics was made of mostly people with either Jewish or German admixture.

Most if not all Poles are in fact people with that or another admixture. Polish land was open to foreigners and by discovering Jewish/German/Dutch/Ruthenian/Georgian/whatever roots of significant Poles (or people considering themselves as Polish if you want) you are just looking at evidence of this fact.

. He spoke German for sure while there is little evidence that he could speak Polish. Not to mention, there is genetic evidence that Copernicus was more likely an ethnic German.

He spoke or wrote in German, because it is huge difference. Back in his times not many Poles wrote in polish, probably because Latin alphabet did not work well with polish phonetics..

This "genetic evidence" shows that he was most likely Spanish - logical fallacy.

Copernicus can be considered as Polish-German, but even so is a bit artificial, since his ancestors were settled in Poland serving polish king for generations. With such approach people attributed to be German, such as Nietzsche or Minkowski are clearly not German and I am sure there would be more. What to say about United States with this approach? Are there no ethnic Americans, since all white people there come from Europe...?

And why shall we stop at German origin of Watzenrode family? What are the roots of this family? Aren't they just germanized representatives of some other ethnic group? Pretty stupid.
R.U.R.
31 Jul 2014 #957
The Polish School of Mathematics was made of mostly people with either Jewish or German admixture.

FROM ENG. WIKI ARTICLE ABOUT D. Hilbert

"About a year later, Hilbert attended a banquet and was seated next to the new Minister of Education, Bernhard Rust. Rust asked, "How is mathematics in Göttingen now that it has been freed of the Jewish influence?" Hilbert replied, "Mathematics in Göttingen? There is really none any more."[15]"

Germans make such fools of themselves with their Jewish or German admixture.theory .
Germans science was almost Jewish domain
R.U.R.
2 Aug 2014 #958
I recall reading a study where the hair of Copernicus was analyzed and his Y chromosome signature was found to belong to the r1b haplogroup which is hard evidence that his paternal line was with high certainty German. (Most Polish men belong to the r1a haplogroup.)

Proves nothing, Right? "Most Polish men belong to the r1a" most but not all , right?

.Not true. Most of Poland's Nobel Prize winners in science were Jewish. The Polish School of Mathematics was made of mostly people with either Jewish or German admixture.

Well Polish science is very strong in such areas as mathematics and logic
There is no Nobel Prize for mathematics and logic, unfortunately .

As it follows from the following extract (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hilbert :

"About a year later, Hilbert attended a banquet and was seated next to the new Minister of Education, Bernhard Rust. Rust asked, "How is mathematics in Göttingen now that it has been freed of the Jewish influence?" Hilbert replied, "Mathematics in Göttingen? There is really none any more.

These words belong to D. Hilbert , the only German or one of the few Germans at the Göttingen school of mathematics. That is the Jews constituted the German school of mathematics.

The Polish School of Mathematics was made of mostly people with either Jewish or German admixture.

You can sing such songs to your German friends but I really know what the prewar Polish
school of Mathematics was .Prove your words, please. Provide a link, please as I did.
We can remove (theoretically of course) all the Jews from the prewar Polish school of mathematics but the school would have continued to exist.

It's clear you have no notion about the Polish school of math and about German science in general.

I'm especially impressed by your great theory :

The Polish School of Mathematics was made of mostly people with either Jewish or German admixture.

At last the time has come to revive the old ideas and theories ?

Germany (German science) is especially strong in creating such "scientific theories" if you remember the prewar Germany was full of such "scientific theories" and I hope you remember the end of the story, do not forget , keep this in mind, my German friend.
rcon
4 Aug 2014 #959
There is clear correlation between achievements in science/innovation and economic strength of the country. Economical position of Germany in times of Copernicus was quite bad due to peasants wars and Germans don't have significant achievements in science in that period as they are used to have. Thus I can understand why German people want to assign Copernicus to Germany. But you - Poles and Germans should focus on economies, because famous individuals are derivatives of successful society as a whole. Compare eastern and western Germany. Same race of people split into two different systems produced totally different results. Don't waste time on stupid quarrels. Think on things that matter and maybe you will be next Copernicus.
R.U.R.
4 Aug 2014 #960
They simply did not possess a university comparable to the Cracovian Academy at the time

They all the time want appropriate the things that do not belong to them

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