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Becoming non-EUnuch -> giving up your share of handouts.


Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
19 Feb 2012  #1
Hello.

I've been having this idea for quite a long time but unfortunately I don't have enough time to implement it on my own... It's not as easy as some here seem to think... First there would be needed fair evaluation of how much money average Polish person is getting from this shi*ty institution and to make it serious, several high-profile NGO's from neutral countries would have to be involved... then the government would have to be pressured to create some simple procedure of giving it back (so millions can be involved) and finally some pan-European action to show clowns in Belgium where they should stick it all.

Do you know any organization, which potentially could take over this idea ? I don't want it to be some childish one man protest but massive action.

Please comment.

edited post
Harry
19 Feb 2012  #2
All the data you need is public domain info. Just divide Poland's net receipts by the number of Poles and then send the cash to the EU. Easy enough.
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
19 Feb 2012  #3
Simple as. Or just send it to a suitable charity; perhaps the Wielka Orkiestra.
Meathead 5 | 470
20 Feb 2012  #4
Yes Poland, give it back. Iceland was in the same situation as Greece but had the currency to tell the bankers to go squat, last week they were rated investment grade. Don't give up the zloty, or Germany will make you into another Greece.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,596
20 Feb 2012  #5
Yes Poland, give it back.

You do realise that countless people in Poland are dependent upon EU cash for their livelihoods? The EU has allowed the insane small peasant farmholdings to be viable, for a start.

Iceland was in the same situation as Greece but had the currency to tell the bankers to go squat, last week they were rated investment grade.

Currency is meaningless, the painful measures (and the point blank refusal to pay for some of what they did) is what helped them. Greece could have perfectly well told the banks to get lost too, but there's a world of difference between owning a few billion and the massive amount that the Greeks owe.

Don't give up the zloty, or Germany will make you into another Greece.

Hardly. Greece is in that situation because they've cheated themselves for years, not because of Germany or anyone else. The Netherlands are a comparable size - are they in trouble? No.
modafinil - | 418
20 Feb 2012  #6
I read in the WBJ today that Poland are chipping in 6 billion euros to the IMF.

EU money isn't about handouts/charity: it's strictly business. The monies moved by governments is for infrastructure dependent on private business, corporations and individuals investing in Poland or expected to be invested.
Meathead 5 | 470
21 Feb 2012  #7
You do realise that countless people in Poland are dependent upon EU cash for their livelihoods? The EU has allowed the insane small peasant farmholdings to be viable, for a start.

Poland should break out the checkbook. Polish welfare is the responsibility of the Polish Government (actually the Polish people). This is bad precedent for Poland as they think they're not responsible for the social conditions in Poland. You can't solve social problems in Poland or Greece from Belgium.

Currency is meaningless, the painful measures (and the point blank refusal to pay for some of what they did) is what helped them. Greece could have perfectly well told the banks to get lost too, but there's a world of difference between owning a few billion and the massive amount that the Greeks owe.

Currency isn't meaningless, it should reflect the goods and services of your country. Iceland was able to devalue the currency. I traveled to Greece within the past year, it was just as expensive as Germany. Ridiculous, it should have been a lot cheaper but the Euro keeps prices artificially high thus the Greeks can't get out of their financial predicament and Germany continues to export to Greece and the rest of the peripherally. The Euro's been a boom for the Germans.

Hardly. Greece is in that situation because they've cheated themselves for years, not because of Germany or anyone else. The Netherlands are a comparable size - are they in trouble? No.

It's not about morals it's all about money.

EU money isn't about handouts/charity: it's strictly business. The monies moved by governments is for infrastructure dependent on private business, corporations and individuals investing in Poland or expected to be invested.

Poland needs to invest in Poland
modafinil - | 418
21 Feb 2012  #8
Poland needs to invest in Poland

I'm not sure what that soundbite means.
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
21 Feb 2012  #9
Me neither, but the healthy state of the stock exchange and bond market here suggest that there's no shortage of investment.

Iceland was able to devalue the currency.

Poland has a population 50 times that of Iceland and an economy as different as it can be.
peterweg 36 | 2,316
21 Feb 2012  #10
Currency is meaningless, the painful measures (and the point blank refusal to pay for some of what they did) i

Thats a fallacy. Iceland did not refuse to pay the bankers money bank. All this debt is stilled owed and hanging over the Icelandic economy as they cannot use their own currency tor repay it. The government is taxing all icelandic exporters so that foreign currency can be raised to repay the bankers.

They refused to pay the depositors guarantee, to savers whom were non-Icelandic on the terms offered. The EFTA Surveillance Authority is taking Iceland to court to make them repay the money they stole from individualsavers who were discriminated on by nationality.

The ridiculous narrative you hear in non-Icelandic media about what Iceland did has nothing to do with fact. Iceland is repaying its debts and its economy is still ******.

Iceland was able to devalue the currency.

Not so. Iceland has fixed the exchange rate and consequently Iceland is still a very expensive place. Thats if you use the local paper Krona described as 'money', in fact Iceland currency is not exchangeable for real money, its real exchange rate 'off-shore' is 50% less. So they haven't devalued, just forced exporters to hand over foreign currency in exchange for Icelandic krona at half the real value, on pain of jailtime. This is illegal under EEA law, BTW.

Iceland is a fantasy economy with fantasy money. Just like Disney Dollars, but with less intrinsic value.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disney_dollar
Avalon 4 | 1,068
21 Feb 2012  #11
Iceland is repaying its debts and its economy is still ******.

That must be the reason the ratings agencies have just upgraded Iceland to investment status.

newsnetscotland.com/.../4368-iceland-now-

Seems like your wrong again.
peterweg 36 | 2,316
21 Feb 2012  #12
That must be the reason the ratings agencies have just upgraded Iceland to investment status.

WTF has that got with anything? has Iceland removed capital controls? has the 4billion Euro bonds been repaid? has the EFTA SA stopped the legal case against Iceland? has it made any less likely they will lose the case? have the banks stopped index lining loans against inflation?

A typical response from our resident bricky. Iceland did what it did because it had no choice. Whether that is better is still open to question.
Harry
21 Feb 2012  #13
WTF has that got with anything? has Iceland removed capital controls? has the 4billion Euro bonds been repaid? has the EFTA SA stopped the legal case against Iceland? has it made any less likely they will lose the case? have the banks stopped index lining loans against inflation?

Thanks for that info. Would you, by any chance, have had time recently to address the question which I asked you about how how an interest rate of 4% causes a fall of 11.5% to become a fall of 24.7% in just three years?
peterweg 36 | 2,316
21 Feb 2012  #14
Harry you really are a pea brained f***wit aren't you? Can't you calculate compound interest yourself? More to the point, wtf has that got to do with this topic?
Harry
21 Feb 2012  #15
Harry you really are a pea brained f***wit aren't you?

Thank you for that comment.

Can't you calculate compound interest yourself?

You said that you have already calculated the figures. Could you post them in that thread? Thanks.

More to the point, wtf has that got to do with this topic?

One could say very much the same about discussions about Iceland in a thread about Polish people giving back handouts from the EU.

First there would be needed fair evaluation of how much money average Polish person is getting from this shi*ty institution

Poland in 2009 got a net payout of EUR 6,119,000,000. At today's exchange rate that is PLN 25,579,590,000, The 2010 Polish census shows a population of 38,186,860. So that is PLN 669.85 per person. Would you like the EU's bank details?
peterweg 36 | 2,316
21 Feb 2012  #16
You said here that you have already calculated the figures. Could you post them in that thread? Thanks.

See here

Polish apartment prices continue to fall

I even added more accurate inflation figures and fixed a mistake, its 11.5% to 17.1%n (not 17.5% as i originally said)
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
21 Feb 2012  #17
Pfft. Iceland was in that situation ONLY because it deregulated its financial institutions. One man made a lot of money off bad investments while the rest of Iceland suffered. Let's not confuse things.
Meathead 5 | 470
22 Feb 2012  #18
In contrast, Greek GDP has been decreasing for 6-7% a year for the last two years. The forecast for this year, according to the statistics in the new deal, is a decrease of 4.3% – most likely too optimistic – followed by a 0% growth in 2013 and – probably overly optimistic – a growth of 2.3% in 2014.

The point being Greece's GDP has been decreasing due to the fact they have no control over their currency. It's ridiculous that it is as expensive for me to travel to Greece as it was for me to take a couple of days in Frankfurt between connecting flights. Greece should be a lot cheaper and if it was they would be able to grow their economy. The Euro is a cheap Mark and an expensive Drachma.
southern 75 | 7,097
22 Feb 2012  #19
The problem of Greece is structural.Euro is like golden sand covering the rotten interior.Ruling class have connected their dominance and survival on euro.There is no way out.They have no solutions.

Greece is like a car with faulty engine where you try to improve things by altering wheels,putting new fuel because the engine is taboo to touch.So the car starts and then immediately stops.
peterweg 36 | 2,316
22 Feb 2012  #20
The problem of Greece is structural

The problem with the Euro is Germany.
Germany should set up a permanent transfer union or be kicked out of the Euro. They are parasites on the weaker economies, using them to hold down the German export costs and destroying the other Euro economies industry.
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
23 Feb 2012  #21
The Germans are just jeaalous because the Greeks had all those benefits and a warmer climate. Considering it's location, there is no reason why Greece cannot do more exporting.
modafinil - | 418
23 Feb 2012  #22
Nobody envies someone down on their knees.
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
23 Feb 2012  #23
Countries like Greece and Spain are, geographically, in a better position to export than countries like Germany. They should actually be ahead of the Germans and charging Germany to use their ports. Don't they realize this?
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,664
23 Feb 2012  #24
Considering it's location, there is no reason why Greece cannot do more exporting.

and what would it export? Olives?
if you mean to be a container port for Europe, there's already Naples.
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
23 Feb 2012  #25
and what would it export? Olives?

Don't forget retsina, bazookis and Demis Roussos.
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
23 Feb 2012  #26
Greece or Spain can manufacture and export anything Germany does.
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
23 Feb 2012  #27
They've had at least as much chance as Germany has to do so already, but I don't see half as many factories.
southern 75 | 7,097
23 Feb 2012  #28
Countries like Greece and Spain are, geographically, in a better position to export than countries like Germany. They should actually be ahead of the Germans and charging Germany to use their ports. Don't they realize this?

Unfortunately the terrible road system of the Balkans cancels such a possibility.Germans import through Ambersa,Rottherdam,Amsterdam etc which take royalties and of course Hamburg.(which for this reason is the richest city in Germany).

Greece or Spain can manufacture and export anything Germany does.

No cars or high quality machinery.Unfortunately our production in textiles shoes household devices(refrigerators,washing machines etc) stopped after everything was made much more expensive by the euro and also due to Chinese etc competition.
TheOther 5 | 3,643
24 Feb 2012  #29
The problem with the Euro is Germany. Germany should set up a permanent transfer union or be kicked out of the Euro. They are parasites on the weaker economies

Nonsense! For most (if not all) members of the EU, Germany is either the largest or second largest trading partner for both exports and imports. There is no EU or Euro without Germany, whether you like it or not, and I'm pretty sure they have a different idea of who the parasites really are.
Meathead 5 | 470
24 Feb 2012  #30
Countries like Greece and Spain are, geographically, in a better position to export than countries like Germany. They should actually be ahead of the Germans and charging Germany to use their ports. Don't they realize this?

It's the Euro. It's too strong for their economies. Why buy something from Greece when it's so expensive. For instance produce, if I can buy lettuce from Poland when the zloty is 0.30 to the dollar why buy from Greece when the Euro is 1.30 to the dollar. I can buy a lot more Polish lettuce with that exchange rate.

Nonsense! For most (if not all) members of the EU, Germany is either the largest or second largest trading partner for both exports and imports. There is no EU or Euro without Germany, whether you like it or not, and I'm pretty sure they have a different idea of who the parasites really are.

Europe misses a strong England to counter weight Germany.


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