How do Polish men feel about gender equality?

I must be mistaken. Evidently women pay for dates. (what planet do you live on?)
Gentlemen, this woman cannot even acknowledge that men pay for the vast preponderance of dates; that's the insanity you are up against.


Once again your denseness shows through. It isn't a question of wanting to collect garbage or be a coal miner. It's men trying to take care of their homes as best as they can. Men usually take these jobs out of necessity.

You've yet to explain how tens of millions of men who work in these occupations are merely a "sliver". I am so accustomed to brainwashed feminists who attempt to ignore questions they prefer not to answer.

The result of feminist societal brainwashing with all their books, articles, programs, etc, has led to a couple of generations of women terribly stunted in their emotional development and maturation, and given to the most unbelievable excesses of behavior under the rubric of “empowerment”. Any observation of this has been attacked by women, feminists, and feminist apologists twisting legitimate criticism of socially destructive and pathological behaviors into ridiculous strawmen arguments. The fact that men are 93%-94% of work related fatalities doesn't register with them. These women are the true sexists.

Is that how a sister should talk to a sister? ;->


Well, you quoted gumishu:


and then started addressing me. No wonder I was confused.

I am not, and I would even offer women better financial incentives to have kids (not necessarily with me). The reason I did the math thing above is that various forms of the word "fairness" bounced around this thread. Well, nature is not fair from our educated, human perspective, and yet it's actually not doing too bad. My view is that it is unfair that men live shorter lives, so if they make a few extra dollars is but a tiny consolation prize.

Where I work plenty of women make more than I do, although not in the same positions. We have the thing called pay equity here. There is that complicated system of who gets how much and why. Sometimes a laborer will make more than a lot of white collar, senior management employees. Come Winter they have to do snow plowing, getting up at 2am, or not going to bed at all. They get time and a half, and times two if it's weekends/holidays. And they get free clothing. Not cheap. The office gets only $250 per year for garments and such.

I have been working 8 years here and we had not even one application for the job from a woman. The work is government so there is not even a shade of an issue with hiring women for any position available. They just don't want these well paid positions and the relative job security that comes with them.

Well, nothing is theoretically stopping men from saving all the extra money they make and retiring sooner, right?

You're right, nature is not fair, it's doing well from the perspective of whole populations, but not so much when it comes down to the individual level. Thankfully, we're not in a society where an individual can readily be sacrificed for the good of the community (unless they choose to, and if they do, we call them heroes and hold them in admiration...)

Not knowing the details, I can't comment why there aren't many women at your place but, at the very least, if a woman does apply, I would expect she would be allowed to do so, her candidacy would be evaluated using the same criteria, she would be paid the same as her male counterparts (unless she underperforms), and she would have the same chances for promotion (again, unless she underperforms). Does it sound that crazy? What is so seditious about it that some people would cry to high heaven and start looking for their pitchforks?


I'm glad you figured it out.

Not thanks to you.


That's the way it's usually done.


Well I guess that's exactly what WOULD happen. So why are you up in arms over a non-existent problem then?

I don't think it really matters to most whether they are retired or working during those extra 5 years which men do not get to enjoy.


I don't think society. I think much bigger. Species. And from that perspective it is perfectly fine to sacrifice an individual (as long as it is not me, of course). Nature sacrifices millions of individuals on an ongoing evolutionary basis. But even within communities, we do sacrifice individuals for various purposes such as school taxes paid by those who have no kids, or road tax by those who do not own cars. That is not the ultimate sacrifice but those occur too. How many US soldiers are have been sacrificed in the US history so far? And why?


There is absolutely no discrimination of any kind where I work. Just remembered, they do hire Summer students for outside grounds maintenance. There was indeed one girl here once. Same jobs, same pay. She was quite physically fir and I'd say physically stronger than many male Summer fellas.

The reason there aren't any (or so few) women filling the aforementioned positions is because the work is ******. They get to work 16 hour shifts in Winters, including Christmas Day. Regular shifts during warmer months are almost perfection with all the flowers blooming and birdies yapping, except that when you have to fix a municipal drain filled with floating **** the charm is kinda gone. Digging a grave on cemetery, even with a backhoe, isn't that charming either. If you see those guys' hands, they look like 60 grit sandpaper. The work is tough and physically demanding. Few women would like to do that as the job is not very compatible with any known brand of nail polish and the scent of perfumes is soon covered by the smell of diesel (fuel, not the cologne).

well, it's debatable. what is pretty clear, though, is that there isn't much of a fix for it, as much as we'd all like to extend the life expectancy of half of the population.

Nobody needs to convince me about how painful it is to pay taxes but there is the notion that even people who don't have kids benefit from other people's kids being educated, and those who don't drive benefit from the infrastructure of paved roads and highways. And you can choose where to live, and whether you want to join the military or not, and you can, in a democracy, influence the government that decides how much taxes you pay. The topic of what you give up to live in a society versus what you gain has been pretty active since pre-humans started getting together to hunt, and the ideas on how to organize a group of humans living together have been evolving, through trial and error, towards more and more perfect systems (ok, we're very far from perfection, but much closer than we were just a few hundred years ago). So I find it hard to accept that treating women equally wouldn't be considered an improvement worth undertaking.


Exactly. Because governments (at least our government) has a much higher standard of avoiding any kind of discrimination than private corporations or many other countries. Apparently it's possible to accomplish and the world doesn't end (even though affirmative action is not the best way to execute it, imo). I'm not advocating that all organizations be run like the government, and I hope someone rethinks the AA, but, in some respects, there are positives about the government as a workplace.

Ok, I see it's a physically demanding job, and I'm glad someone's doing it. I can understand why most women would decide not to do that. But it doesn't mean that men should decide women can't do it, this or any other job, whether officially or by tacit consent based on a stereotype.

It depends on the workplace. E.g., Polish schools` staff is mostly females. Everywhere I have worked so far my head teacher was a woman. I didn`t object to it as long as they were reasonable and able to control their emotions. Unfortunately, many women are not good managers because they reason through their womb, instead of brain.

Yes,with women everything gets confused.They have this sticky attitude.With men everything is simple,linear no conspiraces half words etc.

You either love them or live without them. ;-)

You seem to be afraid to comment on the most obvious things. So it's never entered your mind that in general, women don't apply for the most demanding jobs because they prefer to work in safer (often air-conditioned) jobs?


They don't teach that reality in gender studies classes so understanding your answer does not compute with feminist damaged people like ItsAllAboutME who seems to live up to her name.


Um, ah, ahem, well, actually, there is much truth in how you put that, hmmm


I'm still waiting for your answer as to how millions of dangerous jobs are a mere "sliver". I I don't think she is woman enough to admit how uneducated her comment was.

Even though ItsAllAboutME uses autos, bridges, elevators, high-rise buildings, oil & gas,
computers, assorted appliances, etc (well, you get the picture); somehow all these man-made conveniences escape the feminist indoctrinated mind. Even the existence of tens of millions of men working in the "death-gap" jobs is minimized. A "sliver" indeed!

you do have a point ZIMMY as usual.
I just wish I had been "woman" enough at school to put my foot down and insist on doing technical drawing and Motor Vehicle Engineering which believe it or not we were barred from signing up for!!! These were the subjects that really interested me....shame really.

Where was this? And when?

Let me guess; in Białystok in 1910 ..............:)

I was once barred from entering the womens dressing area (Virginia Slims tournament).

Here is what I read from your post, Zimmy:
drama, drama, drama, death gap...

I replied to all of your "arguments" which is a really generous way of describing the bs that you come up with. How do I even begin explaining anything to people who say that


. I would normally say that guys think with their d*cks but now I'm wondering what to say, because I doubt he has one...

Do you want to get my honest opinion of you village idiots? You're ignorant, close-minded little f*cktards whose only hope of having a relationship with a woman is convincing her somehow that she doesn't have options other than your sorry, ugly ass. I feel bad for all the girls who have to live and work in Poland, and marry you, and have your children, probably ugly as homemade soap, you intolerant, insecure, lame bugf*ckers, all dumber than a bag of rocks. With you there, one's only hope is to leave that excuse for a country as soon as possible or pray that you get invaded again, and all you guys get shipped off to Siberia.

I gave you facts; and some common sense, you gave no answers to them...and you still don't.


Did I say that? Check again!

The last time I threw facts at a feminist, she tried to veer off the subject or use "straw-dog" substitutes instead of addressing the specific issues at hand. After being unable to withstand the weight of evidence, not to mention 'common sense', smoke began to come out of her ears. When I continued to enumerate on the many hypocrisies in feminism her head couldn't take any more and it blew up. As evidenced by the above quote Ms ItsAllAboutME has begun to fume, and lose it.

Stand back.

P.S. This always happens when feminists use emotion instead of logic.

Who is who? deluding yourself again?


Good for you...


In all honesty, have you ever hit a woman? You have spent how many years here putting them down so much. I wonder how you actually treat them.

No! The fact that you would even think in this manner because my factual comments upset you says a lot about how backward you are when it comes to the issues here. ... and by the way, on one occasion a woman hit me because I said "no" to sex. She was fortunate that I did not retaliate. Many women use this 'guys don't hit girls' leverage'.

This all began with my post 44 on "slut walks". which reminds me, perhaps you would like to participate in a "slut walk"? There are many planned for this summer. I have another link in the post noted above for your enjoyment.

We then moved on to the phony "wage-gap" issue, post 93. It's all common sense with a few figures thrown in.
But it does surprise me that a poster here can say; "...leave that excuse for a country as soon as possible or pray that you get invaded again, and all you guys get shipped off to Siberia" and you don't even blink an eye. Not many comments can be worse than wishing something like that. Are you that well trained that you fear offending a woman?

I think you're pretty damaged when it comes to male/female relationships in general... I've met some of your type. The all knowing macho who has no clue about faucet repair but thinks he is God's gift to women. You ain't. I call the plumber, pay him and never hear any crap.

To comment on other posts: No, I don't want to be a welder or a car mechanic or any other job demanding physicalal strength. Biologically, I was not made for it. From the beginning of times - you chase the rabbit for dinner, I cook it. You're right, I don't want to get my hands dirty.

But, in today's modern world, I want the same salary as the guy who sits at the desk behind me and does the same job as me. That's all I want. Yes, you're most of the time bigger, stronger and do the jobs I don't want to do. By all means, get the salary you deserve and I will wait for you at home cooking dinner dressed as a French maid. Fair enough?

go ahead and tell yourself goodnight stories, Zimmy, but the truth is, you're light years behind remotely grasping ANYTHING about the modern world, so the only thing you do understand must be as uncomplicated as what I said. You're so dumb any place where're you're NOT is better off for that, so if you're so worried about the invasion I proposed, how about you do all the women a favor, move to Siberia on your own (and take with you all the douchebags who think like you), and go f*ck yourself in your death gap. unless you're into guys, which with your attitude is really the only valid option. good luck with your sorry life, dude.

Don't get yourself too upset over him or any others posting crap. It's not worth it. Really. It's his, their problem, to feel miserable and not in charge. Perhaps, they have crappy jobs and make less than you and me anyway. Hence, the anger. Nobody feels good when knocked down of a pedestal they built for themselves for centuries.

the way he feels about women, a male/male relationship most likely works out much better for him.


so when one is degrading women, you don't consider it not insulting, do you?

I simply laughed at ItsAllAboutME fuming at the Polish men, wishing Poland were invaded again and that all men were sent to Siberia.
I shouldn't even laugh. My two uncles had been sent to Siberia and died there in uranium mine, and an aunt returned to Poland mad to die shortly afterwards.

Not only that.

If you read this thread carefully, you'll see yourself the OP (a Norwegian female construction boss) had asked for the reasons a Polish working team did not want to obey her orders. I have given the Norwegian full although concise analysis why I believe that was happening AND I said it had nothing to do with the sex of the boss.

Most of this thread should go to the bin as an off-topic. The Mod chose to remove one of my posts however.

Not only that.

I believe many of the posters simply do not get what traditional chivalry of Polish men towards women means. Instead, off-topic poster offending Polish men is protected by Mods.

So, may I know the reasons?

I thought you were basically replying to what I said.

Well, what does it mean? I know that some Polish men can be very disrespectful, but many are not. I observe a very wonderful division of roles in a Polish married couples. He does the manly things around the house, she does the wifely duties. Both very happy. I really don't see my friend chopping wood for a fireplace and I don't see him planting tomatoes in the garden. However, he can cook and feed the children when she is at work. It's all about partnership and respect.

Guesswho: I refuse answering off-topic/flaming questions. Are you getting most of the talk here is off-topic and is a flame?

Eurola: Let me give you a very generic answer. Over 123 years of Polish partition and all those national uprisings (and also during WWII and whenever Poles had to conspire or act as partisans), the Polish women were giving total support to their men and Polish education to their children, preserving the nation. There is a notion of "Matka Polka" (Mother Pole) telling Polish men give all due respect to Polish women. Not without reason, Polish Catholic are devoted to Virgin Mary, a woman. Before the partitions, Poland was a republic. The Polish gentry style was to respect women very much, and chivalry was highly valued. This approach can be found in all novels of Henryk Sienkiewicz's Trilogy, and it even rings in the Quo Vadis. All those notions are still deeply embedded in the Polish mentality. The dying out habit of kissing female hands dates from the times I mention.

And yes, you'll find many low-life creatures in every country, not only in Poland.

If I ever, however fleetingly, consider the possibility that feminists might be sentient beings after all, all I need to do is remember this aggressive, rude, and highly unintelligent rant to convince me otherwise. :-/

Dear ItsAllAboutMe - it's NOT all about you, and kindly step back from my menfolk and start walking in the opposite direction. Your remarks are uncalled-for, and though you probably think you're a good conversationalist, I can tell you you're either just repeating a bunch of propaganda or, when that doesn't work, you start screaming just like the little woman you are. Can't find any compelling arguments, poor thing? It might help to


;-p

At least slavic women tend to avoid the hooks of feminism.

To the women who are upset at me for proving that the "pay gap" is a false issue; grow up! I'm not sorry that I ruined your erroneous illusions. Truth sometimes hurts, yet two of you even admit that you don't want to work certain dirty but higher paying jobs. Perhaps, instead of calling me names and inventing fictitious scenarios about me you might at least try to be consistent in your arguments.

To the poster who wishes Poland to be invaded again, well, that loathsome comment pretty much speaks for itself and for the disgraced author who wrote it. Shame must be a thing of the past.

God blessed us with communism ;)
It insisted on equality (salaries, education and job opportunities). Women in those systems learned their lessons the hard way (expected successful professional life with the obligations in family inherited from the previous system) ;)

I didn't have any idea that is still an issue of some relevance (Ok, we have few feminist NGO's funded by the West to promote it), until I saw discussions here (so, I understand the male resistance to new practices in a way). I never felt like a member of Second Sex in a sense that I was objectified more than men (that happens, but it is not at all uncommon to see the objectification of men either), that i was conceptualized and determined primarily through my biology, that I have less opportunities , that I lack any freedom in comparison to men, or the ways to express myself.

Those are perhaps different ways, but they are available.

My experience, even in a society that is dominated by ostensibly ultra macho discourse, says that men perceive women as equal, but irresistibly different :)) with variations in expectations regarding some roles (usually open for negotiations ).

I want to say that I feel completely comfortable in my female shape, and if the thing works why should we repair it? :)

So, I also think Slavs solved the problem in, for both sides, satisfying manner.