Territorials - Polish National Guard

Why do you repeat lies? eh? You know where you belong don't you?

@Iron, it isn't a lie, read this:

wiadomosci.onet.pl/tylko-w-onecie/onet-odpowiada-na-zarzuty-o-klamstwo-w-sprawie-karabinkow-grot/61lezf2

There no such a page, strona nie zostala odnaleziona.

Yes, I know, I belong to this country while you are a migrant who left Poland long ago and has no idea what is going on here. Simple isn`t it? hahaha


It is your problem, darling, join a computer course which will teach you to surf the Internet and look up info. hahaha

Good at least you are aware, I hope one day you will have a good look from that vantage point at you life and won't have any regrets.


shoo! Wasn't talking to you!

It doesn`t matter. You made it public that you can`t find simple info in Polish on the net.

Works for me:

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So, first, the rightist government accused the independent media of spreading misinformation and lies. Later, secretly, they decided to send all faulty guns back to the arms manufacturer for upgrade and improvement.

It is a lie (I read Lenka post) because it is a manipulation. To people who have no clue about weaponry and have no time or will to learn about it s might be even convincing. Their conclusion is just worthless BS. BECASE every new weaponry has smaller or bigger issues at the beginning, there is not prefect ready weapon at the first go. All countries and all weapons' had those issues. HK, M-16 and so on....So chill....there is nothing major wrong with GROT.

As much worthless as that malicious scum who would do anything and everything to throw mud at PiS. I have no love for PiS but I wouldn't never attack any gov venture that is actually good for Poland. I have integrity but those pigs are just a nasty little *****.

They have no such reservation and that why they are worthless scum. As they must know what they are doing.
So don't be naïve Paulina, dislike PiS for the right or you own reasons but don't buy into every nonsense fitly rags like those cook up!

You are lying against the facts. It is obvious you didn`t read the links we provided. Shame on you.

listen dumb ass ,either you are lying because you like to sling manure at PiS at any cost or you are an idiot who has no clue about the issue, doesn't understand the issue and doesn't care to learn about the issue. Either way shut your mug as you don't know what you are talking about. Got it?

No, I don`t get it why you are denying the truth and lying against the facts. It is obvious you depend only on the regime propaganda which insists that the gun is almost perfect, Why don`t you read independent Polish sources we provided? They clearly say - using the gun poses a risk to soliders` health. Simple.

You should know your twisting and denials won`t help.

BTW, some of the gun`s flaws had been known before the Ministry ordered them. Yet, they weren`t improved. Why did the Ministry decide to buy faulty guns??? How much were they paid under the table???

wiadomosci.onet.pl/tylko-w-onecie/szokujacy-raport-o-karabinku-grot-ujawnia-pelen-zakres-jego-wad/0yent0v

Exactly, so you should stop talking about issues you have no clue about.

BECASE every new weaponry has smaller or bigger issues at the beginning, there is not prefect ready weapon at the first go. All countries and all weapons' had those issues. HK, M-16 and so on....there isn't anything major wrong with GROT.

What is that you don't get?

@Iron, the link works for me.


What Lenka post? You mean that screenshot? lol Iron, for God's sake, that's just an introduction to the article! lol Read the freaking articles! Only then we'll be able to discuss the issue. I can clearly see that you haven't read any of them.

Read those:

1. wiadomosci.onet.pl/tylko-w-onecie/szokujacy-raport-o-karabinku-grot-ujawnia-pelen-zakres-jego-wad/0yent0v
2. wiadomosci.onet.pl/tylko-w-onecie/raport-zespolu-pawla-mosznera-dotyczacy-karabinka-grot/zd5zwvq
3. wiadomosci.onet.pl/tylko-w-onecie/onet-odpowiada-na-zarzuty-o-klamstwo-w-sprawie-karabinkow-grot/61lezf2

...and only then you can comment. Before you do that you're just talking out of your ass and you're making baseless accusations.
The first link describes only 8 major flaws out of 22 and it already gave me a headache. The factory didn't even make the sand test (they claim they made dust test) for the guns. When sand gets into Grot the gun becomes unusable. It makes it unfit for military lol And it's just one of those major flaws...

The second link is the report describing all of the 22 flaws. I didn't have the time to read it yet, hopefully I'll manage later.

The third link is Onet's response to the allegations of "lying" or "manipulating".


I've read about this in other sources too, but those articles were short, very general and based on some opinions. None of them was as long, thourough, detailed and based on tests performed by people so experienced in the field, as those published by onet.pl


Who is "worthless scum", according to you? GROM soldiers?? :D Territorials? :D Haha... The report was made and the articles were written, because of the complaints made by soldiers who were using Grot... and who had to pay for parts falling off from those guns, despite the fact that those parts were falling off because of construction flaws and it wasn't the soldiers' fault... You realise that 220 PLN is one third of what a Territorial is getting for taking part in the course?


Iron, I dare say that I know about guns more than an average Polish woman and maybe even more than some men. It's still very little, but at least I do know something :)) And, yes, I am aware what problems there were with M-16 before it was called like that and that American soldiers still had issues with M-16 even in Vietnam, for example, and that there were modifications, etc. But a) that was years ago and b) I imagine American soldiers were listened to by the gun manufacturers (or the guns wouldn't sell). The problem with Grot is that the producer didn't listen to soldiers (or, at least, not enough). If you know about important flaws, you make modifications (without waiting for a scandal to erupt and a recall of 43 000 guns!).

Apart from Radom's "Łucznik" factory in Radom also Military University of Technology in Warsaw took part in designing Grot. That military university entrusted GROM, among others, with testing the weapon. GROM soldiers said Grot is faulty. They concluded it's a good weapon, but has many flaws that need to be corrected. GROM presented evidence how faulty it is to "Łucznik", but the company stated that they're spoiled "because they're GROM and they worked with the best equipment" (I guess "Łucznik" doesn't want to make "the best equipment" - it may be "Poland B" mentality at work, I'm afraid) and the factory won't change anything, because it won't be "profitable" for them. So, GROM decided to get Heckler & Koch HK416. Other Polish special forces don't seem to be interested in Grot either.

And yet the guns (Grot A0 version) were ordered during the testing phase (against the rules for buying equipment for the military) and Territorials got 1000 pieces. They had to be modified into the A1 version for free by the factory (those were very small changes though and didn't tackle the serious problems with the gun). During two following years Polish army got 43 000 pieces of A1 version. Soldiers still had problems with them. Finally, the factory made a new improved version A2, but the army will get it only this year. In the meantime the army sent those 43 000 guns... back to the factory for... "modifications" :):

wiadomosci.onet.pl/tylko-w-onecie/producent-karabinkow-grot-poprawki-wszystkie-egzemplarze-broni-po-tekstach-onetu/k46ez0s

43 000 guns... Wasted taxpayers money (500 millions)... Wasted time and tarnished reputation... And who will pay for those "modifications" of 43 000 guns???
It looks like turning a blind eye to Grot's flaws wasn't so "profitable" for the company after all...


lol
Do you have any clue, Iron? If you do, then, please, do dazzle us with your expertise and comment on all those 22 flaws described in the report made by experts headed by former GROM officer who's been a shooting instructor for over 20 years...

@Paulina
Auch... :) you go girl :)

Poland is lucky. Have general Krstic in jail in Poland. Save yourself. Give him command over Polish National Guard.

Poland doesn't need those guns.

I suppose Iron didn't realise whom he stumbled upon ;D (and I don't mean just me lol)


Well, I guess noone needs faulty guns...

Yes I do! I have already forgotten about that issue, It has been raised some time ago. As far as I know all those issues had been already addressed by the producer.


I look at that from a different point of view:
1. Polish procedures are **** for the most part anyways. There is always a way around them.
2.What has been already done is in the past.
3.The only reason they harp about it is because they want to sling mud at PiS. It is a good angle as any to do that.

4. That money let them build their production line and move forward with the construction. Better used than on 500 plus.
If they were just doing it by the book in Poland it would mean that that project would be put on hold or it would take another 10 years.

It very possible that With a different gov - say those from PO. They would just roll it up completely.

The key point here is that GROT is a modern and good construction( regardless of all those flaws). It is Polish construction and it is a good practice for a country to have its own weaponry. Not to mention that economically it could be a very good venture for Poland.

Poland needs its own manufactures.

Face it. There is no other reason to talk about it now other that political like in the political low key games not political as in a matter of state and statehood.


I think you dear Paulina and your cohorts often underestimate me. All facts you put in there I was well aware of it.
As for M-16 it took years to eliminate all its flaws and work on a militaries gun is always a work in progress. So no matter how many years ago it was there is a lesson in that. The other HK German military gun - ask your source about that if you are interested.

On the other hand it was years ago so ...lol!

Ah, so you knew, but forgot! How convenient lol


Had they been? All 22 of them? I guess we'll see when those new guns get issued to the army, because I'm not buying what this company is saying anymore...


I see, so onet.pl wasn't "lying" or "manipulating". You simply don't mind (or even agree with) what PiS and "Łucznik" did.


That's bullsh1t. Somehow they've been producing guns for years (and the Polish army and police are using them) and there haven't been such controversies or the need to go "against the book".

And as for PO, you're talking out of your ass again... :/ As I wrote, "Łucznik" has been producing guns for years, the company has been developing (and earning more and more money) under different governments and that fancy, most modern factory in Europe was built during PO rule (Ewa Kopacz was at the opening). I'm a patriot, Iron, and I agree that Poland needs it's own manufacturers and I'm glad when they're doing well, but Polish soldiers should be getting guns that work and don't fall apart. Fortunately, WOT won't be using them in battle, but what if the rest of the army will be getting Grot (that's the plan)? Will they be "OK" by that time? lol Those 43 000 guns were recalled back to the factory only after the Onet article was published (and that's not ancient history). What if it wasn't published? Would the soldiers be forced to use them? And for how long? I guess we'll never know... I think it's good that Onet released that article. That's the journalists' job.

Poland needs it's own manufacturers, but they should be honest and do their job well.

Btw, in March this year "Łucznik's" board of directors fired the company's chairman of the board. They're looking for a new one. If everything is so OK and the company didn't f*ck up, then why did they do that?

Iron, it's easy to underestimate you, because usually all you do is throwing insults, getting histerical and often not using any sensible arguments. It's good to see that you can do better for a change lol

That moron is a tragic case, indeed. Thanks for explaining things to him so extensively coz I deemed it a waste of time. He is so hopeless at understanding basic things..


Every single time he takes voice.


The last time he used one was 10 years ago. :):)

Not forgot I know about those issues and that different procedures were used to buy guns for Territorials, that was Maciarewicz. and so on ...
what I said is that those issues with onet and that yapping about faulty weapon has been in current news some time ago, I already forgot about that and pawain brings it up to do fore

nothing new


If not all that most of them, I don't work for them OK. For someone who is not involved directly in all those things with that weapon I would say that my knowledge of the subject is pretty extensive. Anyways is that you point is that your take you know some geek with a specific knowledge of some technology and if I will make mistake about one screw it will somehow nullify validity of what I have to say?

It doesn't work that way for a simple reason - that weapon is generally a good weapon with a great potential.
In Poland circumstances and reality is better that all those decision as they were unperfect had been made to give that gun a chance.
Ask your source what he prefer no GROT or GROT as it is - which can be improved upon.


Of course they were manipulating. What the message an average dude get from that - hey PiS bought faulty guns, Grot is a junk.
That they go after PiS I get it but they go after the gun and Polish manufacturing at the same time - and that stinks.


They have been improving upon AK-47, they have been doing it since 70' or 60' . That is a different story than a brand new construction.
Polish army needs a new gun. Taking another ten to 15 years to bring up an untested gun will rule it out. They would go after foreign tested construction - that is the reality we are talking about.


Well, that is a good question. I think they would improve those guns on the sly without informing the public about it. Hey but otherwise what can I say you got a point.

Yeah, you want a lot and I might as well agree with you. However I'm down to earth realist and I know what the reality is now.

What you want is laws and procedures that make this country' work efficiently for the good of its citizen and so do I. Hence I support Konfa and you should support them too. lol

It well may be that Lucznik kicked out it Chairman because his sidekick spilled the beans to onet to get rid of him as he wanted to take his place or some such.

It nice that you think it was because he F up!
What a nice thought!

Cut down on the number of quotes please

I meant even if they were perfect. Poland needs them like Indonesia needed that sub or Mexico needs an aircraft carrier.
Where would they be used? To enforce mask compliance or against Russia?

And we can stop holding our breaths, WOT (territorials) have been revealed to be another PiS scam, jobs for wives and in-laws of the leaders and nothing for the soldiers who are purely disgusted....

onet.pl/informacje/onetwiadomosci/zolnierze-gorszego-sortu-w-wot/cm9f0t8,79cfc278

PiS truly has the Midas touch, except that everything they touch turns to sh|t and not gold...

Surely not against Germans or Czechs. :):)

The Russian invasion of a European country increased the popularity of Territorials in the society.



CNN's Kaitlan Collins reports from a military base in Warsaw, Poland, where civilians are learning to become soldiers. A banker, a high school student, and an aspiring opera singer are among dozens dressed in military uniform, practicing their shooting stance, working through tactical drills, and learning how to communicate on a battlefield.

Another video showing women`s service in Polish National Guard