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Rich man, poor man - today`s Poland


OP pawian 176 | 15,325
28 Jul 2011 #31
So I am not surprised that they cost now that much . It was too crazy , IMO.

Exactly. Those prices were from the moon. :):):)
isthatu2 4 | 2,703
28 Jul 2011 #32
And their name is - Bombardier! :):):):)

are you taking the proverbial Pawian? !!!!
Bombardier are the last remaning train manufacturors in the country that invented trains.....they just lost a crucial contract to that nazi company siemanns............i wont have one bit of their foul,tainted products in my house! now if I ride half the trains in Britain Im ironicaly riding on trains built by the main electrical contractor for Auschwitz......:(
Monia
28 Jul 2011 #33
Is there any difference , Warsaw type is build by polish company called Pesa - based in Bydgoszcz .

pesa.pl/pl/O_firmie/Profil
OP pawian 176 | 15,325
28 Jul 2011 #34
Monia - Warsaw type is build by polish company called Pesa - based in Bydgoszcz .

Yes, it is just great. Warsawians are patriots and choose Polish manufacturers. Krakowians are more cosmopolitan and our Bombardiers are from:

are you taking the proverbial Pawian? !!!!
Bombardier are the last remaning train manufacturors in the country that invented trains....

Not Britain but Canada. At least I guess so, or I am wrong and the Canadian company makes Bombardiers in England?

bombardier.com/en/corporate

Bombardier NGT6 cars are low-floor trams bought since 2000. There have been three deliveries so far: 12 cars in 2000, 14 cars in 2003 and 24 cars between 2007 and 2008. The trams have an electronic passenger information system.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramways_in_Krak%C3%B3w

BTW. a tram or bus ticket costs about 2.5 zlotys in Krakow. 1$.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
28 Jul 2011 #35
Yes, it is just great. Warsawians are patriots and choose Polish manufacturers. Krakowians are more cosmopolitan and our Bombardiers are from:

The squabbling over the new trams in Poznan was hilarious - Ciegelski kicked, screamed and whined repeatedly about Solaris winning - yet the old Ciegelski trams in Poznan are utter rubbish, while the new Solaris design is - well - proving popular.
isthatu2 4 | 2,703
28 Jul 2011 #36
Not Britain but Canada. At least I guess so, or I am wrong and the Canadian company makes Bombardiers in England?

Yes,same company,but Canada is a "cousin" and the jobs were in Derby,its not the same as government awarding the contract to a german firm based in germany with a rather foul history.
cms 9 | 1,271
28 Jul 2011 #37
The squabbling over the new trams in Poznan was hilarious - Ciegelski kicked, screamed and whined repeatedly about Solaris winning - yet the old Ciegelski trams in Poznan are utter rubbish, while the new Solaris design is - well - proving popular.

whats with all those strange burgundy trams with German adverts on - look like they have come from early 1990s Leipzig !
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
28 Jul 2011 #38
That was probably one of the smartest deals ever - they needed extra trams to replace some older Dutch trams, and they managed to buy them for peanuts from Dusseldorf - I think about 30,000 Euro each, including delivery?

But yes, these ones you've seen have been pushed into service quickly because they needed something to operate a shuttle service - so they're still complete with German adverts and so on!
OP pawian 176 | 15,325
28 Jul 2011 #39
whats with all those strange burgundy trams with German adverts on - look like they have come from early 1990s Leipzig !

Of course, apart from newest production, Polish cities also use old trams, even 40 years old. More or less the ratio is 1 new for 3 old.

d
pip 10 | 1,660
28 Jul 2011 #40
If you are looking for a good investment try sea towers in Gdynia. They are amazing with a taras that wraps around the apartment. To the left side of the building-the land has been bought by Ikea and they are planning to do residential in this space.



isthatu2 4 | 2,703
28 Jul 2011 #41
so they're still complete with German adverts and so on!

What,like Nur Fur Polnische signs?
Wroclaw Boy
28 Jul 2011 #42
Let`s bring up facts which show this double nature of modern Poland.

Its not exclusive to Poland most countries in this world experience extreme social stratification.

Rich people and their offspring generally spread the wealth between themselves, they pass on their values and place their children within the most profitable businesses. Also people that are rich are most likely to stay rich because they have so much money they just keep making it - it takes money to make money.

Its a fact that if a person is born poor its highly unlikely he/she will die rich.

Poor people pay the interest for rich peoples large bank accounts.
pip 10 | 1,660
28 Jul 2011 #43
I disagree. We live in a world where what you have and how much it costs is more important that an education. I do agree with rich staying rich. They have a better chance where those that are poor have more of a struggle for basic necessities.

However, measuring rich or poor based on how much "stuff" you have is wrong. This is why U.S is in the toilet. Spending is encouraged there.

There is nothing wrong with being poor- but also sacrifices should be made. If you can't afford a computer, tv or car- then don't get one.

In Poland it is possible to go to university on the weekends. My cleaning lady's daughter will start this sept. She is very poor- from the Ukraine. It will cost her 100 pln per month to take courses on the weekends so her weeks are free to work. She is 19 and also works as a cleaning lady.

It is possible to get out the "poor" cycle- but it takes work.
If a person decides they will be poor- than they will be. If they desire more, it can be done.
Wroclaw Boy
28 Jul 2011 #44
THIS POST IS IN REPLY TO PIP

I disagree.

You disagree with what exactly?

Spending is encouraged there.

Spending is encouraged in all modern societies it is after all exactly that which fuels economies. Less spending = poor economy.

However, measuring rich or poor based on how much "stuff" you have is wrong.

How would you measure it, bank balance? big house, nice car etc..

There is nothing wrong with being poor- but also sacrifices should be made. If you can't afford a computer, tv or car- then don't get one.

I dont agree with that at all. Its not fair that people who were born into wealth should be able to afford things which somebody more unlucky cannot.

If a person decides they will be poor- than they will be.

Unless they have rich parents and no expensive addictions.

If they desire more, it can be done.

In theory thats true but many dont have the right qualities to make money, many dont have the entrepreneurial flare, ability to take risks, or just plain old intelligence. The only answer for such poor people is to work their asses off in crappy jobs or take two jobs thus effectively trading their very lives in the name of a bit more money. In any case its very rare for working class people to be millionaires - period, most will trade 50 years of their working lives for a paid off mortgage and if theyre lucky a nice car and a holiday once a year.

Also it depends massively on what country they were born in, i dont see many Ethiopian millionaires running - around do you? How does your "if they so desire, it can be done" work for people born in third World countries?
pip 10 | 1,660
28 Jul 2011 #45
I disagree that rich people only spread the wealth between themselves.

of course spending fuels the economy- but how much is enough. do we need the latest flat screen or the newest mac- or the ipad 3 when it comes out? Lets use the U.S. bailout package as an example. How exactly did this help the economy. -it only helped the exec's that got it- and they didn't need it anyway- the middle class lost everything.

measure wealth on how much disposable income and savings you have. not the amount of "stuff"-- who knows if stuff was purchased on credit or cash? It is easy to look rich while living paycheck to paycheck.

"I dont agree with that at all. Its not fair that people who were born into wealth should be able to afford things which somebody more unlucky cannot."---so should I give my money away? (my husband thinks I do already)

Ethiopia doesn't have the infrastructure or social systems of countries in the west. not a fair comparison.

If you are born poor- it is possible to get out of the "poor cycle" if you live in a western country. There are opportunities to go to school- there is night school, part time, week end. There are opportunities to improve yourself. It takes desire. If you settle with a job and settle that you will always be poor- then it will be that way.

If you are not trained in something- (plumbers, electricians, painters- trades people all make decent wages in North America.) and have no desire to learn- than you will stay poor. Should a person with no education and no training make 50,000 dollars a year?

I think the girls and ladies who work in some shops in Poland, sitting behind a cash register and doing crosswords all day- will be doing this for the rest of their lives.

I am also not talking about millionaires. They are the exception. I am talking about leaving the poor cycle and being able to own a home, car- have a job and not be in debt or a slave to a credit card.
Marynka11 4 | 675
28 Jul 2011 #46
In theory thats true but many dont have the right qualities to make money, many dont have the entrepreneurial flare, ability to take risks, or just plain old intelligence.

I'm wondering how far the wealth of a society has to do with the specifics of education. I remember in my school time, the thinking out of the box was not encouraged. Memorizing big amounts of information was a way to succeed. Now I look at the education system in America, and the kids learn how to invest in stock, they design their own businesses, etc. I'm wondering, in how far the entrpuneurship can be taught to the kids.

measure wealth on how much disposable income and savings you have.

I agree here. Buying a lot stuff doesn't create the wealth in the communities. Outsourcing housework and being able to have resources for entertainment does. If an average family has resources to buy prepared food, to hire cleaning staff, to go out for drinks and dinner, to spend a weekend in a hotel nearby, it crates jobs and wealth for the community. It's a self-fueling process. If you buy an Ipad the money goes to Steve Jobs and his investors and the rest to Taiwan, or wherever they put them together.
pip 10 | 1,660
28 Jul 2011 #47
exactly, and buying stuff doesn't necessarily fuel the country- it fuels China.
Wroclaw Boy
28 Jul 2011 #48
I disagree that rich people only spread the wealth between themselves.

I meant passed down to their airs, their own families. Rich families generally breed rich children.

of course spending fuels the economy- but how much is enough.

Enough for what - global domination? yep every country aspires to be the leading economic power. Answer = theres never enough..... Would you just stop making money because you have enough? of course not, the more you make to more you want, you want a bigger house, better car, nicer watch, bigger yaucht, more power, bigger Island etc.. the perpetual crave for more is never ending.

measure wealth on how much disposable income and savings you have.

Thats ridiculous, disposable wealth = more stuff what good is disposable wealth if you dont dispose of it? Even if you save a certain amount you still want to dispose of the rest. Thats the fundamentals of the monetary system, THATS what its designed for.

"I dont agree with that at all. Its not fair that people who were born into wealth should be able to afford things which somebody more unlucky cannot."---so should I give my money away? (my husband thinks I do already)

No, you should stop claiming that poor people can make it financially when others have it much easier, in essence many have a birth right to be rich. Ohh god not the Economic expert husband again, will you stop mentioning that.

Ethiopia doesn't have the infrastructure or social systems of countries in the west. not a fair comparison.

You said poor people can make it if they desire. I pointed out that only around 30% the worlds countries have markets where one can make it IF THEY HAVE THE RIGHT QUALITIES, basically only those born into capitalist societies that have free markets can. So when you mentioned poor people can make it you should have stated that only those that live within societies that have possibilities.

Ethiopia is a country on this planet, why forget about them? along with all the others.

There are opportunities to go to school- there is night school, part time, week end. There are opportunities to improve yourself. It takes desire. If you settle with a job and settle that you will always be poor- then it will be that way.

Yep, sounds about right.

Should a person with no education and no training make 50,000 dollars a year?

Yes, why should a person who parent's are filthy rich inherit 20 million.

Education teaches people to make money, Education costs money, how will poor children get an education?

Now I look at the education system in America, and the kids learn how to invest in stock, they design their own businesses, etc. I'm wondering, in how far the entrpuneurship can be taught to the kids.

Ha yeah. The education system is manipulated to fuel the countries economy especially in America. The Army brainwashes people to kill, whats the difference?

Madness

PIP: exactly, and buying stuff doesn't necessarily fuel the country- it fuels China.

Problem is PIP theres an American CEO (most probably) organizing those Chinese imports and he makes money, also dont forget about the import taxes, the US gov makes money from that too. Its still cheaper for the consumer to buy those Chinese jeans so they will dictate. Thats a free market and its killing the USA.

the free market is killing the US.

Look ive said it many times, its not the US, not China, not the EU, its the monetary system itself. Money breeds corruption by its very being, its just so obvious.
pip 10 | 1,660
28 Jul 2011 #49
good grief, I may have mentioned that my husband is an economics major once- maybe twice. seriously?

I think we are on the same side here. I am a socialist by nature- however, I do think everybody has the ability to have a fair shake at life.

The fact is- the ultra rich will always be ultra rich because they have the ability to do so.

I am all about fair- if we all paid our fair share than we wouldn't have so many problems. But as it stands now, the ultra rich have the ability to jerk the system- it happens everywhere.

I think the media and industry fuels our desire to want more- it is sick.
There is a natural desire to want more however, we have reached extreme and it is disgusting.

would I stop making money. the answer is yes- but I think our house is the exception. we have a goal of retiring early so we invest wisely now.
Wroclaw Boy
28 Jul 2011 #50
good grief, I may have mentioned that my husband is an economics major once- maybe twice. seriously?

LOL i know, thats four that i know of then. I don't like economists.

I do think everybody has the ability to have a fair shake at life.

You're forgetting about the third worlders again, its a fact that 50% of the world live on less the $1 a day.

The fact is- the ultra rich will always be ultra rich because they have the ability to do so.

Financial ability which they dont have a fcuking right too, they are humans with beating hearts the same as you and I.

But as it stands now, the ultra rich have the ability to jerk the system- it happens everywhere.

and as you may have gathered im violently apposed to that, it happens every where but doesnt have to happen at all.

I think the media and industry fuels our desire to want more- it is sick.
There is a natural desire to want more however, we have reached extreme and it is disgusting.

Yup, yup and yup and have another yup just in case i missed a yup.

would I stop making money. the answer is yes- but I think our house is the exception. we have a goal of retiring early so we invest wisely now.

Slaves to the system, have you heard about the Zeitgeist Movement.
youtube.com/watch?v=EewGMBOB4Gg

I never miss an opportunity to plug.

Peace out to you and your economic husband.
pip 10 | 1,660
28 Jul 2011 #51
Peace out to you and your economic husband.

he is not so bad. not a slave to his job- but he has to make money somehow. he is actually in real estate but trained in economics a staunch anti communist and loves the Kaczinski's.
NomadatNet 1 | 457
28 Jul 2011 #52
I agree with some main points mentioned by Wroclaw boy, for example, yes, there is less than 1% chance for a person who is born in a poor family to be rich. More than 90% of rich people in the world today are rich people from their parents. But, there is still small chance for anyone to be rich even if it is 1%..

Look ive said it many times, its not the US, not China, not the EU, its the monetary system itself. Money breeds corruption by its very being, its just so obvious.

This 1% small chance to everyone is given by money/monetary system.. This is a system which is not liked by old royal feudal systems as they try to save their power continuously.. Money is evil, is their saying of them actually.. You may say "hey, we are in 21st century, not in middle age." But, things aren't different much yet.. Look at Arab Kingdoms, monarchies/lords in Western Europe, etc etc.. They have hands everywhere in the world in many big businesses.. Plus, since they are also siding/using religious institutions by building some mosques, churches etc too, they have huge power, human resource power too in the world.. So, even this 21st century is full of feudals in the world and this is main reason why poor people have no chance to be rich.. But, this 1% chance given by monetary system will put an end to them sooner or later..
OP pawian 176 | 15,325
28 Jul 2011 #53
=isthatu2]Yes,same company,but Canada is a "cousin" and the jobs were in Derby,its not the same as government awarding the contract to a german firm based in germany with a rather foul history.

Aren`t we all Europeans?

Besides, we should think globally, not locally. When Germans get the contract and earn the money, they will be able to visit England on vacation and boy more English produce.
Wroclaw Boy
28 Jul 2011 #54
he is actually in real estate but trained in economics a staunch anti communist and loves the Kaczinski's.

he is not so bad. not a slave to his job- but he has to make money somehow. he is actually in real estate but trained in economics a staunch anti communist and loves the Kaczinski's.

Lets break it down baby, break it, break it down.

he is actually in real estate but trained in economics

Not in the financial sector? any self respecting Economic major should be in banking, that's where the money is.

Real Estate LOL, anybody can deal Real estate.

a staunch anti communist

Most Americans do. Funny thing is in order for the US to bail itself out IMO they really need to socialize.

The powers of the US are well aware of this but you have 'the constitution of independence' you see, the very format that founded the US as it is now. ALL yanks swear by it, funny that a major alteration of their precious constitution just happens to be their economic savior.

Capitalism has been the fundamental flaw of the US, it was a fore gone conclusion really. But you know, who complains when times are good????

This 1% small chance to everyone is given by money/monetary system.

Ahh correction Nomadatnet, this 1% is only available to leading capitalist countries.

Whats the specifics for Ethiopians? Poverty spans the world wide my man, people from these countries have about a 0.001% chance of ever driving a nice new BMW.

EDIT: if only the founding fathers sat around and said hey "this constitution is corruption heaven". What would we all do if we could have another go hey?
OP pawian 176 | 15,325
28 Jul 2011 #55
I dont agree with that at all. Its not fair that people who were born into wealth should be able to afford things which somebody more unlucky cannot.

Oops, it reminds me of communist ideology. Lenin and his comrades professed similar ideas.

most will trade 50 years of their working lives for a paid off mortgage and if theyre lucky a nice car and a holiday once a year.

The old communist slogan said:
From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

Of course, it is impossible. Such mad ideas finished off communism.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_each_according_to_his_ability,_to_each_according_to_his_need

I'm wondering, in how far the entrpuneurship can be taught to the kids.

You can teach a kid everything. But only those with a real talent will succeed.

Yes, why should a person who parent's are filthy rich inherit 20 million.

the free market is killing the US.

Opps, communism reloaded! :):):)
NomadatNet 1 | 457
28 Jul 2011 #56
Whats the specifics for Ethiopians?

Your Ethiopians example is a good example, but, that supports my words above in my previous post. Most of poor African countries are colonies, don't forget this, and their masters, nobles/royals, give them Africans less chance than 1% that they give to ordinary people in their homelands that you call capitalists, actually, feudals. So, poor Africans with 0.0001% chance are having more troubles and they are dying due to starvation.. To escape from this, they are trying to move to the countries of their masters by immigration legally or illegally and causing some big problems there.. So, poor Africans are not a product of monetary system again, but, by their own primitive kingdoms as well as so-called modern kingdoms of the west, which both are feudals. (Note that I am not disagreeing about their poverty etc with you - but, your saying monetary system is in the root of these is wrong, totally wrong.)
pip 10 | 1,660
28 Jul 2011 #57
Most Americans do. .

perhaps, but my husband is Polish with a Canadian education he doesn't have the kill mentality. maybe he should be in banking---however we like our free time too much. work to live- not live to work.
beckski 12 | 1,617
29 Jul 2011 #58
Blocks are usually grouped in estates, among abundant greenery

The following photos were taken from the balcony, of a relative's home in Lublin. My family members have lived in the house since the 1930's. I was amazed to see the very large and green backyard. Notice the shape of the buildings, in the background of the second photo.





Wroclaw Boy
29 Jul 2011 #59
Oops, it reminds me of communist ideology. Lenin and his comrades professed similar ideas.

Thats the problem when ever i talk about the Zeitgeist Movement or the Venus Project people remember communism and when they think communism its Russia circa 1930's.

the free market is killing the US.

Opps, communism reloaded! :):):)

personally i don't see any other option, not communism as such but a redesign of our culture to cater for every human being on this planet. Hell just abolish the monetary system for starters, that would be a great beginning.
OP pawian 176 | 15,325
29 Jul 2011 #60
talk about the Zeitgeist Movement or the Venus Project people remember communism and when they think communism its Russia circa 1930's.

But I cannot have another impressions after reading about those movements, especially Venus Project. It is all a mixture of concepts proposed by communist and green parties, with a considerable touch of science fiction.

[i]The core idea advocated by TZM is the replacement of current civilization with a money-free and cybernated "resource-based economy".[4] The Zeitgeist Movement and the Venus Project promote replacing human labour with automation, government will be through collective participation of the public, aided by advanced cybernation. According to the movement, there will be no decision-making process regarding greater social issues by human beings, those decisions are arrived at by using the scientific method, based on the carrying capacity of the Earth, rather than using human opinions.

Half the points in their list of aims and goals of the project is communist, the other half is environmentalist.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Venus_Project

It all sounds very beautiful, but only on paper. In practice, it will be a disaster. Read below.

personally i don't see any other option, not communism as such but a redesign of our culture to cater for every human being on this planet.

But don`t you understand that any attempts of artifical redesigning of our culture are harmful and have always ended with disaster, no matter if done in communist, fascist or democratic countries? The human culture that we have now is so complex and versatile that you can`t just come and declare its redesign. It won`t work, just like it didn`t work in history.


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