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Installing a solar panel in Poland


Lagboy 4 | 7    
18 Nov 2013  #1
Hi everyone.
Does anyone know how much it cost to install a solar panel in a house for private use?
Monitor 14 | 1,821    
18 Nov 2013  #2
for 4 people house: 8 tys. zł to 20 tys. zł. according to: ekonews.com.pl

Some municipalities financially support installation of solar panels.
OP Lagboy 4 | 7    
18 Nov 2013  #3
Thanks.But I think I still need more information.
Velund 1 | 350    
18 Nov 2013  #4
First of all, do you understand, WHY you need solar panel on your house?

Do you have regular blackouts in your area and need backup power source for low-power electronics? Are you totally "off grid"? Do you prepare for war or natural disaster?

Most likely, kw*h of energy, produced by solar panels will cost you 5-10 times more than regular grid power. And you will need to install and support battery bank (3-5 years life before replacement) and power inverter to get usable power while you really need it.

If you just thinking about saving on electricity - replace your regular light bulbs with energy saving ones, like luminiscent or LED lamps.

And remember, that current solar panels will generate about the same energy during their life as used initially to produce it. So, it will not help you to lower your "carbon footprint". The only difference that CO2 and other contamination will be created somwehere in China.
Astoria - | 155    
19 Nov 2013  #5
The best place for solar panels is in the basement.
peter_olsztyn 6 | 1,100    
19 Nov 2013  #6
WHY you need solar panel on your house?

He wants for DHW domestic hot water heating probably. Glycol, heat exchanger etc
peterweg 36 | 2,315    
19 Nov 2013  #7
And remember, that current solar panels will generate about the same energy during their life as used initially to produce it.

Ignorant rubbish. Solar cells have a 25 year guaranteed life to 80% output. Thats a hell of lot of energy

Next year Poland will introduce a Feed In Tariff (FIT). This will pay you when you feed back excess electricity, the rate isn't determined yet but last time I checked its was 80% of last years average price per KWHr

pv-magazine.com/news/details/beitrag/poland--proposed-regulations-look-bad-for-pv_100012850

You can get an idea how much the cost will be with bulk panels costing around 0.8-1.0 USD per watt for instance. On top of this you will need a a Grid-tie inverter (or inverter and off-grid batteries or combination). Batteries are expensive and wasteful.

google.co.uk/search?q=solar+by+the+pallet

To qualify for a Feed in Tariff you will probably need a professional installation by a qualified provided. For this you will HAVE to get a quote from a Polish installer. In the UK, the prices are high, a rip-off to be sure.

The amount of electricity produced will depend on a lot of things, not least the location. This gives a ball park figure oksolar.com/abctech/solar-radiation.htm In Poland average per day over 365 days is 2-3hours.

commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Europe_sunshine_hours_map.png

Optimally placed (point south) and angled (30degrees?) means a 1kw solar installation would produce 1Kwhr * 2.5 hours * 365 days = 912.5KWHr per year. In Southern Poland the figure is more like 1200-1400 per year.

So if that installation cost 3K pln for cells, 2k pln for inverters and 3 k pln for installation= 8k PLN, you can calculate how much return you get by dividing the FIT payment of 912.5 KWHr by 8K PLN.

A 2.5KW or 4KW is more probable than 1KW.
Velund 1 | 350    
19 Nov 2013  #8
Ignorant rubbish. Solar cells have a 25 year guaranteed life to 80% output. Thats a hell of lot of energy

10 to 25 years, depending of manufacturer. We had some 40W chinese panels (on a off-grid low power telemetry equipment, of course) that survived only 2-3 years.

And try to figure out how much energy is consumed to produce typical panel starting from sand and bauxite. And compare with typical output of such panel during its complete life cycle. You'll be surprised.
peterweg 36 | 2,315    
19 Nov 2013  #9
If you buy something without a warranty thats your problem, all decent panels have a guarantee.

And try to figure out how much energy is consumed

Over 20 years a 200watt solar panel will produce say 200*1000*365*20=1,460,000 Kwhr. That amount of energy ( cost of coal fired generated) costs $0.05/KwHr = $73,000. Of course, domestic electricity costs more like 20c per KWHr.

So you claim that a 200w panel uses the same amount of energy as it produces which would cost $73,000 yet the chinese and European manufactures can seel these for <$1 per watt which is $200??

You are Talking Bull.

Put it another way, the main energy cost of solar cells is glass (sand). How much energy and what is the cost of 20kg of glass??
Velund 1 | 350    
19 Nov 2013  #10
Over 20 years a 200watt solar panel will produce say 200*1000*365*20=1,460,000 Kwhr

If you have a full sun over some part of Poland 24 hours a day for 20 years, 200W panel would produce 0.2 kW * 24 h * 365 days* 20 years* 0.9 = 35040 kWh

(0.9 is average based on 80% promised output in the end of 20 year life).

In a real world with average to 2.5 hours of full sun each day over the year it becomes 3650 kWh during full life cycle.

3650 * $0.05 = $182.5, compare to your $72k.

Right now we will not take conversion losses into account, but you are lucky if you'll get more than 80% of this amount into more useful form of 220V AC.

Now I look to older 100W Siemens Solar panel that is in my room now, It was removed to reinstall to another location later. Good, robust panel with 20 year warranty. There is about 2.5 kg of extruded aluminium in their frame and base.

If memory serves me correctly, producing of one ton of primary aluminium require (world's average) 15.6 Mw*h. Around 11 MW*h per ton is used to break chemical bonds in oxide, and rest is losses to heat the mixture.

So, 2.5 kg of aluminium takes around 39 kW*h just to convert oxide into metal (not counting energy expenses to mine the ore, enrich, etc).

For 100W panel will produce (based on calculations above) around 1825 kwh of energy during their 20 years life (in Poland). 91.25 kWh per year. About half year of operation just to "return" energy spent in smelters to produce raw aluminium that was used to make its frame.

With monocrystalline silicon that was used in solar cells things is even worse...

Just to note, most widely used Siemens process take about 250 kWh per kg of pure silicon that can be used for solar cells or further purified for use in electronics.

There is another, more energy-efficient processes in use, but they use rare ultra-pure minerals as feedstock.
peterweg 36 | 2,315    
19 Nov 2013  #11
Yes, you are right I forgot to divide by 1000 for Kilo

About half year of operation just to "return" energy spent in smelters to produce raw aluminium that was used to make its frame.

However, the aluminum is infinity recyclable and recycled Al uses 6% (1.4kwhr/kg) the energy opposed to oxide. So your 100w panel returns the energy in 14 daysfor recycled Aluminum. The silicon (etc.) used can be tiny as its microns thick and sometimes sprayed on with an inkjet print

The production of primary aluminum ingots from bauxite ore requires approximately 23.8(62.2tf) kWh/kg of aluminum. Recovering aluminum from scrap to produce secondary aluminum ingot consumes about 6 percent of the energy required to produce primary aluminum

eere.energy.gov/manufacturing/resources/aluminum/pdfs/al_theoretical.pdf

pg 79

With a feed in tariff complete payback for installation and purchase can come within a few years

Siemens process take about 250 kWh per kg of pure silicon that can be used for solar cells or further purified for use in electronics.

Thin film solar cells are 1micron thick, thick film 350 microns. Thats 0.1gram or 3.5grams per m2. So your 100w thick film panel uses say 2g of silicon which is 5KWHr max of energy?
Velund 1 | 350    
19 Nov 2013  #12
aluminum is infinity recyclable

Yes... With 9-12% metal loss in each cycle. And it almost always require adding of primary aluminium to get correct alloy composition in recycled ingots. And, even after this, use of secondary aluminium is usually avoided in critical constructions with large alternating loads (like wind generator rotors).

Concerning thin film silicon cells - maybe, somewhere in future, it will become widespread. But all that I see now in real products is mono- or polycrystalline wafers, 0.5mm (in small cells) or thicker.

Last time I looked into papers, concerning energy efficiency of "green energy" was about a year ago. Latest data showed that modern solar cells return 80-120% of energy spent to their production, and large wind turbines return about 20 times more energy during their life cycle than was spent to produce them.
peterweg 36 | 2,315    
19 Nov 2013  #13
Concerning thin film silicon cells - maybe, somewhere in future, it will become widespread.

Think film is very common now, for instance: firstsolar.com/Innovation/Advanced-Thin-Film-Modules

Its about 7% of market share. Thin films are not .5mm of silicon, its a thin layer on normal glass


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