Is Poland hostile to supporting families and stay united? DNA test.

Hi all,

I moved to Poland several years ago because in my eyes Poland is absolutely the best EU country with the perfect mix of progressivism and traditionalism, as well as it being - in my estimation - the best country to raise a family in. I come from another (broken) EU country somewhere West of Poland and let me tell you the environment is HOSTILE towards creating families that stay united, but one still can make the most of what he can by planning ahead.

Disclaimer: I am not married, nor do I have any stable relationship or some significant other I'm planning to have kids with, this is just something abstract topic and I'd like to keep it as accurate in legal terms rather than starting a moral discussion about what the law should be like, or shouldn't for that matter.

Yes, but what is your point or question? To me, when you add progressiveness to anything, it will destroy what's good if given enough time. I guess that's what's happening in Poland because people think that the best way is to stay in the middle and add this or that to spice things up.

Thanks a lot for your reply!
This is what I mean, but the system automatically flags me for spam. Please read it cause it's a bit lengthy or mods please allow me to articulate:

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Hi all,

I moved to Poland several years ago because in my eyes Poland is absolutely the best EU country with the perfect mix of progressivism and traditionalism, as well as it being - in my estimation - the best country to raise a family in. I come from another (broken) EU country somewhere West of Poland and let me tell you the environment is HOSTILE towards creating families that stay united, but one still can make the most of what he can by planning ahead.

Disclaimer: I am not married, nor do I have any stable relationship or some significant other I'm planning to have kids with, this is just something abstract topic and I'd like to keep it as accurate in legal terms rather than starting a moral discussion about what the law should be like, or shouldn't for that matter.

What I know is that in Poland, as well as elsewhere, the legal presumption for a husband is to be the father of any kid born within the marriage unless proven otherwise. What I also know is that cohabitation means nothing and that is in my opinion an option for all those people who want to start families without the yoke of the State being ever present.
BUT - and here's the kicker - just because a husband is presumed to be the father, doesn't mean that a non-husband is presumed not to, from what I know (I might be wrong) paternity in Poland can be established even without a DNA test (for instance Whatsapp messages in which you CONTEMPLATED the POSSIBILITY of being the father) and that quite frankly is the reason why my house of cards collapsed.

My intention writing this is to see if there's a way to be certain to obtain a DNA test. I believe that a man should sacrifice for the sake of his kid but ONLY if it's HIS kid.
I've worked hard to build the necessary conditions to raise a family (career, bought an apartment and have no mortgage, have savings) but things like this make me think that Poland is slightly more protective than other EU countries but only so much so.

I will certainly try the open communication route and clarify my expectations from the beginning of a future relationship, as I always do, but I'm experienced enough to know that if a partner agrees with taking a DNA test after the birth and then "changes her mind" I would functionally be f'd.

It happened so many times that a partner used a Trojan Horse strategy "yes don't worry we're just FWB, stop asking all the time" then fast forward some years and it's not "bBbbBut i LoVe YoU!1!111!! I wAnNa HAvE kiDs WitcHoO".

But one thing is a relationship breaking apart, another one is when kids are there. It's also no mystery that courts favour the mother so the good ol' switcheroo is such an effective tactic, there's basically no counter to it.

So is there a way, contractual or not, to protect a man who wants to sign a birth certificate ONLY if a DNA test shows he's the father? Besides, how can a man test a kid if the mother suddenly behaves obstructively and non cooperatively? Sounds to me like he can't and at that point you're at the mercy of the court.

I'm paranoid, my stupid country doesn't offer sufficient guarantees in terms of establishing paternity, thought that Poland was better (and it really is) but there's a cap to how much protection one can have. If 2 partners agree on taking a DNA test at birth and then the mother chooses otherwise, is there a bulletproof way of getting it from the court or are they the ultimate arbiters of that?

I haven't looked into the laws, but a quick overview suggests that you cannot be forced to admit that you are a father without sufficient evidence. If I was you, I would definitely not sign a birth certificate unless DNA test is performed. You can always say that you have no problem signing the document, but need time to make sure you are the father. That's the only way it can work in a civilized country like Poland, correct? :

I would love to, if the practice is like the theory yes absolutely. DNA then sign the BC. But my question is how does it REALLY work in the case one parent (the mother) behaves obstructively?

"Private paternity tests, depending on the laboratory, cost from around PLN 600-700 to even PLN 2,000. The average price of a high-quality DNA test for private purposes is around PLN 1,300-1,500."

So I would get such a private paternity test and then you are fully covered, stress-free. You cannot force the other person to behave in a certain way, but when you have 100% proof you are not the father, they can do nothing about it and you are free of your worries.

Money is not a problem, the logistical problem is if a couple is unmarried and doesn't cohabitate, or even if they cohabitate but conflict arises, once the baby is born the mother can refuse to make you get a swab of the baby or can go to her parents and you won't be able to test the baby, so how do you actually take the test in case of uncooperativeness?

I understand it would be the mother claiming you may be the father. For example, she may want you to pay alimony claiming you are the father. Then you tell her or a judge - "I have no problem paying alimony as long as I do paternity test." If they agree, you are covered. If they don't agree, you are covered too because legally you cannot become a father without a proof, especially that you want to have a proof. I don't see much problem with that.

That would be great, but the real question is can a judge establish paternity based on OTHER factors besides a DNA test? I heard of some cases where men via chat admitted to something and paternity was established without a DNA test, now I'm trying to separate rumours from legal advice

No - because the judge can be 50% of more times wrong and the defendant could easily prove it in the future. Who needs a judge who has been proven more than not to be wrong? For example, your enemy or a girlfriend can give a judge a screenshot of your claims that you slept with her and that you may be the father. She may even have a video recording of you saying that. But in a civilized country, it is absolutely no proof because in a month you may get the child's hair, poop, or saliva and bring the DNA 100% evidence to court that the judge was wrong. The case would have to be overturned. So judging based on rumors would be dismissed in court.

Still, I advise you to get married if you want to have sex and focus on lifetime commitment.

Thanks for the advice but for me marriage is intrinsically too risky an endeavour so I'll pass, I still think that a family can be full fledged even without a piece of paper