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Comparing Poland and Romania


delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
28 Dec 2015 #31
But the groups are here and getting some followers.

They are indeed, and they're trying very heavily to convert people. Someone from one of those groups even called me a while ago to invite me to their service, which was unbelievably creepy. I seem to recall that there's also at least two African groups on the go in Ponzań, including the rather infamous incident where some African dude was infuriating his neighbours and then crying about racism when they phoned the police on him repeatedly.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
29 Dec 2015 #32
church has pushed many away

Clergy have also at times miscalculated. Some believe that religion in schools was one such miscalculation. They argue it's better to have fewer committed Christians than a motley mass of randoms pupils forced to be a captive audience duirng religon class.

But, all in all, nothing has pushed more young people away from religion, the family, ethical conduct and general human decency than COMMERPOP - that cheap, tacky commercial popculture that bombards us all 24/7.

It has replaced authorities with film and sport stars, assorted celebrities and other passing idols and replaced genuine traditions with passing fads and crazes. It has reduced culture to action films, sitcoms, soap operas, romantic comedies, tabloidised media and computer games and replaced music with various forms of pop-noise (metal, techno, hiphop, etc.).

Commerpop is so successful because few thinking people take the time to step back and view it all in broader perspective, analysing its causes and effects and weighing its pros and cons. Its biggest defenders, of course, are those who've got a finger in that multi-billion-dollar pie and totally disregard the damage commerpop has caused to individuals, their families, societies and human civilisation in general.
Levi 12 | 450
29 Dec 2015 #33
But, all in all, nothing has pushed more young people away from religion, the family, ethical conduct and general human decency than COMMERPOP - that cheap, tacky commercial popculture that bombards us all 24/7

Another good text from you Polonius.

Pop culture destroyed the erudiction. And now people worshipp idiots like Russel brand.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
29 Dec 2015 #34
£ażienki

£azienki (no dot over the "z")!
Ironside 50 | 10,991
29 Dec 2015 #35
other than being mostly Slavic,

Romania is not a Slavic country and that fact in itself is more oft than not meaningless.

The government struck me as a little more corrupt and 'backward' than Poland, but that could just be my imagination

Romanians done soothing which Poland haven't been able to do to this day. Namely they cleansed all strata of their state, universities and other important positions from commie flunkies, they have also give back private property to their rightful owners.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
29 Dec 2015 #36
give back private property

I don't much follow Romanian affairs but if they have indeed de-communised their country and returned property to its rightful owners -- than they are to be whole-heartedly commended. Poland has indeed been a dismal failure on both counts!!!!!
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
29 Dec 2015 #37
Romanians done soothing which Poland haven't been able to do to this day.

Blimey, Ironside, you couldn't be more wrong. Romania did nothing of the sort. A lot of property went into private hands mysteriously as well.
Harry
29 Dec 2015 #38
A lot of property went into private hands mysteriously as well.

So, very much like Poland then.
mafketis 25 | 9,270
29 Dec 2015 #39
Poland has indeed been a dismal failure on both counts!!!!!

Poland has done better than Romania by almost every possible metric.

One of the reasons I don't take PiS rhetoric very seriously is because I do travel in the region and see what corrupt and/or incompetent governments have done in Hungary and Romanian (for example). The socialist Gyurcsány government devastated the Hungarian economy and things are better now but still lagging behind Poland (and Hungary started ahead of Poland). Romania on the other hand emerged from communism in worse shape than Poland and then suffered from rapacious oligarchs in the Russian mold.

Comparing how much better things are in Poland now (versus how worse they've gone in some neighboring countries) makes it very hard for me to take hype about PO "corruption" seriously.

Anyone who says that Romania has coped with its communist past better than Poland has is either dishonest, an idiot, or both.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
29 Dec 2015 #40
Poland has done better

I was not comapring the two countries in terms of overall "betterness". I know too little about Romania, but the roundtable conspiracy ("We Soldiarity/oppositon types take over the political scene but allow the regime side to function on the public stage and hold onto their perks and possessions) cannot be called de-ciommunisaiton. Neither can Poland's very lame lustration. Attempts to sanitise things in 1992 and later via Wildstein's list were effectviely thwarted by the układ. So most red criminals evaded prosecution and ex-commies like Balcerowicz were entrusted with the economy. The TK to this day is headed by ex-commie Rzepliński. And even at this late stage in the game there is no re-privatisation law in effect.
Harry
29 Dec 2015 #41
Anyone who says that Romania has coped with its communist past better than Poland has is either dishonest, an idiot, or both.

Or they simply haven't been to either Poland or Romania since the fall of communism and believe everything they read in the right-wing press.

And even at this late stage in the game there is no re-privatisation law in effect.

Which is pretty luck for people who bought properties at knock-down prices from the Polish state thanks to the connections they had made during the commie times.
Ironside 50 | 10,991
29 Dec 2015 #42
Romania did nothing of the sort. A lot of property went into private hands mysteriously as well.

Even if a lot of property went into private hands as well that do not diminish the fact that many rightful owners got their property back.

In Poland a lot of property went into private hands mysteriously but rightful owners more often than not got naught.

Anyone who says that Romania has coped with its communist past better than Poland has is either dishonest, an idiot, or both.

it has been long established on PF that you are both. Romania was doing worse than Poland even before the war.
mafketis 25 | 9,270
29 Dec 2015 #43
Or they simply haven't been to either Poland or Romania since the fall of communism and believe everything they read in the right-wing press.

Or they're not willing to give up their Poland-as-eternal-victim martyrology. They can't stand the idea of a Polish public that isn't under the boot of (fill in the blank).
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
29 Dec 2015 #44
Hence why they've elected a party that's very much willing to show them the boot to the face in the middle of the night.

Poles always say that it's the Russians that like to be oppressed, but I have the feeling that the Poles aren't so different.
mafketis 25 | 9,270
29 Dec 2015 #45
Poles always say that it's the Russians that like to be oppressed, but I have the feeling that the Poles aren't so different.

Well there's a slight difference - Russians are immobilized by oppression (into uneding lethargic misery) while Poles are energized by it into doomed (they hope) resistance (if they could just manage that motivation when they're not oppressed who knows where they could end up?)
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
29 Dec 2015 #46
when they're not oppressed

Czechs regard Poels as hopelessly quixotic romantics fightuign agaisnt all odds. They more or less or less played ball with teh Nazis and Prague remained unscathed by the war. Poles look upon Pepiczki as horribly collaborative cowards.

But if Poles were unable to rally in the face of adversity, Western Europe might have been reduced to a score of additional Soviet republics after 1920. If not for Solidarity's challenge to PZPR totalitarianism, the Soviet bloc would probably still exist.

Topic of the thread - Comparing Poland and Romania
Borsukrates 5 | 131
29 Dec 2015 #47
It makes more sense to compare Poland and Hungary.

Victor Orban used to be an euroenthusiast. Then he became a skeptic. Jarosław Kaczyński was always an euroskeptic. Not surprising considering JK can't speak english.

When Fidesz came to power, Hungary was almost bankrupt. When PiS came to power in 2015, Poland was relatively well off compared other EU countries, some even called it a model member of EU and praised for resisting the financial crisis.

When Fidesz came to power, the party who ruled before them had roots in communism, it was the equivalent of Polish SLD. When PiS came to power, the ruling party before them had roots in communist opposition, with few former PZPR members.

Orban called for changes in Hungarian constitution, which was written in 1949 based on the Soviet Constitution by Stalin, with some changes in 1989. When PiS calls for changes in Polish constitution, it wants to change the 1997 constitution, written in free Poland. Both Fidesz and PiS wanted to put their respective constitutional courts in chains, using the same rhetoric... but PiS wants to go in the opposite direction! Falling back to Sejm (polish parliament) as the most important ruling body in all cases is a callback to the soviet constitution. The ruling role of the Party.

Soon a good comparison might be Poland and Białoruś (Belarus).
Lyzko 29 | 7,340
29 Dec 2015 #48
I too concur that a comparison "Poland and Hungary" might indeed prove a more fruitful one:-) To be sure, the key differences between PiS vs. Jobbik is that Orban is openly anti-foreign as well as anti-Semitic, Duda/Szydło aren't!

Poland vs Romania on this thread please
Harry
29 Dec 2015 #49
Poland vs Romania on this thread please

So comparing the Polish participation in the commie crushing of the Prague Spring and Romania's refusal to send even a single soldier would be OK?
Lyzko 29 | 7,340
29 Dec 2015 #50
Don't quite see that as the point of the thread.
NIkolaybg - | 10
30 Dec 2015 #51
Polonius, you presented a really stupid "theory". Bulgaria existed long before the Ottoman Empire, long before Poland. So how Bulgarians are "Turks speaking Slavic"? How come?

How would you feel if called "A German speaking Slavic language"?

If you refer to the Proto-Bulgarians, it is disputable whether they were of Iranian or of Turkic origin. At any rate, Turkic people are not Turkish. They were a great union of tribes one of which were contemporary Turks; but not identical.
Lyzko 29 | 7,340
30 Dec 2015 #52
True in the latter instance. However, Turkish people ARE Turkic, as is their language (with of course a heavy overlay of Arabic)!
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
30 Dec 2015 #53
Turkic

I meant Turkic not contemporary Turkish. Anyway, I seem to have encountered somewhere that Bulgarians do not have typical Slavic DNA. but I'm definitely not an expert in that area.
Lyzko 29 | 7,340
30 Dec 2015 #54
Bulgars most certainly are Slavs, merely South Slavs, therefore ethnically more mixed than Poles, Slovenes, Czechs or Croats:-) Slavs have indeed an Asiatic element to their makeup, but Bulgarians reveal more the influence of neighboring non-Slavic, Albanians/Illyrians, Greeks and Turks as well!
NIkolaybg - | 10
31 Dec 2015 #55
Of course that Bulgarians do not share the same DNA- this is due to the fact that initially the state was established by the Proto-Bulgarians (Bulgars) as well as the mixtures with various tribes, for example Cumans.

It is absolutely wrong to speak about "pure blood" on the Balkans- this is valid also of Romanians. It is important what one thinks of him/herself,and not what the DNA speaks.

Concerning the comparison Poland-Romania- Poland is more advanced economically, with higher salaries. Poland is also more "northern" whereas Romania stands closer rather to Italy in mental respect.
Lyzko 29 | 7,340
31 Dec 2015 #56
Technically though, Bulgars are still considered Slavs by ethnologists as well as linguists. Again, they comprise the South Slavs, Poles, Kashubs, Czechs, Polabians are Northern Slavs:-)
RUR
1 Jan 2016 #57
Lyzko : "Slavs have indeed an Asiatic element to their makeup,"

Such European countries LIKE Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, France are MUCH, MUCH richer in this element. Swedes have influence from Finns while the Norwegians on the other hand appears be more influenced by the Saamis. And Germans with their strong Jewish admixture

Well, Lyzko, great findings in science on your part as usual
pweeg3
1 Jan 2016 #58
Russians certainly have a lot of Asian blood (Putin for example, looks almost Chinese) , but the Golden Horde stopped before Poland.
R.U.R.
1 Jan 2016 #59
Pweeg : "Russians certainly have a lot of Asian blood (Putin for example, looks almost Chinese) "

If so, then Obama is a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant (WASP)

Anyway the Russians do not have African admixtures as is the case with many western European nations

Back on topic please
Lyzko 29 | 7,340
3 Feb 2017 #60
[moved from]

Romania remained possibly the poorest country in Eastern Europe post-War, even more than Albania, Bulgaria, and Slovakia!
They were caricatured in the foreign press as a land of vampires, thieves, low-lives as well as of the loosest women that side of the Vistula:-)

Romanians have a long and rich culture, often slighted by those who don't understand them. Their language may well be the closest we have extant to how Caesar's troops spoke, going back over a thousand years!


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