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Advocating euthanasia routinely causes scandals in Poland...


pawian 150 | 7,954    
4 Jan 2013  #1
Strange this topic hasn`t appeared in the forum yet.......

In one of his recent interviews Jurek Owsiak (organiser of the biggest annual charity event in Poland) declared his support for euthanasia

He said: I am not afraid of the old age, but I am afraid of infirmity, especially dementia, Alzheimer. Not only old people, but all members of the family are degraded by those conditions. I am eager to start a discussion on euthanasia. Personally, I accept euthaniasia - for me, it is a way to ease the suffering of old people.

In result, both bishops and politicians of various colours are voicing their opinions - most are against, saying that euthanasia is immoral, inhumane, devastates the bond between generations, ruins family. In countries where euthaniasia is legal old people are afraid to use the medical services for fear of their lifes.

They are expecting Owsiak to withdraw his words before 13 Januray when the next edition of the charity event is going to collect money to help the old in need:

" Allowing for euthanasia , not only legal but also a moral dimension , is one of those phenomena which causes serious consequences for the functioning of societies. Especially for families , a sense of intergenerational compounds . Though subconscious mind that in certain circumstances, grandmother or grandfather you can sleep , causes real change in the relationship between people and observe it in societies that have gone in this direction. 's something almost inhuman in the fact that in countries where euthanasia is permissible , elderly people are afraid to use the assistance of health professionals because of concerns loss of life " - says aperl signed by Kazimierz Jaworski (SP ) , Marek Sawicki (PSL ) , Jack Zalk (PO) and Przemyslaw Wipler (PiS ) .
TommyG 1 | 361    
4 Jan 2013  #2
Personally, I accept euthaniasia - for me, it is a way to ease the suffering of old people.

Although I would agree with the legalisation of euthanasia one has to be very careful on this subject.
It is interesting that he mentions Alzheimers disease. I recently lost an elderly relative who had been suffering from that condition. In the end she succumbed to a stroke, and passed a week later. At no point would anyone have considered something like 'euthanasia'. That's just unthinkable. Her husband died several years previously to cancer. In both cases the diseases had a slow and gradual affect on my relatives but quickly become very severe.

I think that euthanasia shouldn't be thought of as 'putting elderly people (sick or otherwise) 'out of their misery'. Perhaps it can be used in cases when a relative is suffering from a permanent 'vegetative state'. But then again, it's not their choice, and be seen as murder. There is a big difference between voluntary and involuntary euthanasia. Considering how many people suffer from depression and consider killing themselves these days I'm not so sure that this would be such a great idea. There are still countries where euthanasia is legal and people can still go to those countries if they wish to voluntarily end their lives...
TheOther 5 | 3,671    
4 Jan 2013  #3
Personally, I accept euthanasia - for me, it is a way to ease the suffering of old people.

Good ol' Soylent Green:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green
Bieganski 17 | 906    
4 Jan 2013  #4
I've read recently that most people around the world are increasingly living longer but not healthier lives.

Some of the highest costs occur in providing care towards the end of a person's life as well.

It makes little sense to keep a terminally ill bedridden person sedated nearly around the clock for weeks or months on end waiting for their organs to finally fail on their own.

But the current objection to euthanasia has to be seen in context. Religious edicts regarding the need to value and protect all life certainly interferes when it comes to making personal and/or rational medical decisions. But religion aside, since Poland currently bans abortion except in extreme circumstances and as an EU member also has no death penalty then the call for euthanasia to be legalized can be hard to justify.
beckski 12 | 1,619    
5 Jan 2013  #5
I had once created a thread on PF, concerning Passive Euthanasia. The thread no longer exists. I had mentioned the difficulties and decision making my family experienced, when a relative was on life support.
OP pawian 150 | 7,954    
5 Jan 2013  #6
I had once created a thread on PF, concerning Passive Euthanasia. The thread no longer exists.

I am really sorry. I checked in search and found nothing.

The thread no longer exists. I had mentioned the difficulties and decision making my family experienced, when a relative was on life support.

Can you share the details if it is not a problem?
kcharlie 2 | 165    
6 Jan 2013  #7
In result, both bishops and politicians of various colours are voicing their opinions - most are against, saying that euthanasia is immoral, inhumane, devastates the bond between generations, ruins family. In countries where euthaniasia is legal old people are afraid to use the medical services for fear of their lifes.

Well, it's essentially a conflict between the Christian vs liberal secular worldviews. The current secular philosophical trend is for the maximisation of freedom wherever possible so we see liberals pushing for voluntary and not involuntary euthanasia (though involuntary euthanasia is certainly a likely possibility in a dystopian, Orwellian future).

Now, of course, we have secular conservatives in both Poland and the West agreeing with Christians, but their position is difficult to reconcile with the prevailing secular ideologies. Why would you want to deny someone the right to end their lives when they no longer wish to live? Why would you spare your dog of the suffering of disease and old age, and yet force your grandparents to suffer? Would you permit euthanasia in very specific and narrow circumstances? Why not in others?

Now, religious Poles naturally, but also many secular Poles are still deeply influenced by the Catholic mindset, and so euthanasia is still seen as scandalous in Poland, even by those who do not identify themselves as Christian. But unless there is a marked shift in either the direction of secular philosophy or in the secularisation of Polish society, then it seems it's only a matter of time before Poland joins the ever increasing number of Western jurisdictions that have permitted ethanasia.

The current abortion law, which is a result of a compromise between Catholics and communists, will probably be overturned with time, and I imagine many politicians too would like it to be liberalised already, but they don't want to rock the boat and risk arousing the ire of the still-influential Catholic Church.

Sooner or later, you will get a "hard case" where euthanasia seems like a good option being covered in the media, which will portray all Poles who disagree with euthanasia in an intolerant and uncompassionate light, and once a critical mass is reached, mainstream public opinion will rapidly shift in favour of euthanasia as a result.

I had once created a thread on PF, concerning Passive Euthanasia.

Is that the same thing as assisted suicide?
OP pawian 150 | 7,954    
7 Jan 2013  #8
Owsiak went back on his words and said he had been misunderstood. He was only sharing certain dillemma of his with the interviewer but in fact he has never been a supporter of euthanasia.

Jerzy Owsiak denied that he was a supporter of euthanasia. Earlier, the head of the Great Orchestra of Christmas Charity urged politicians to canceled his words that caused a storm .

I am for euthanasia and have never been . I'm talking about the dilemmas of a man who has the courage to admit that when watching the suffering , it asks for its meaning. Discussion and exchange of views is important - Owsiak said on TVN 24 .


Today the Polish RC Church issued an official declaration fully condeming euthaniasia. Euthanasia is out of question.

Human life is too precious to reckless statements result in a loss of its importance - Team members believe the Polish Episcopate for Pastoral Assistance to Health.

In his declaration criticizes team Jerzy Owsiak his say about euthanasia. In an interview with dziennik.pl he said among other things that euthanasia is to help the elderly in suffering.

The National Health Service Chaplain Father Stanislaw Warzeszak in an interview with the Agency 's Information Radio recalls the position of the church - euthanasia is murder . The priest says clearly that man is the master of life and has no right to deprive him or herself or someone innego.Eutanazja is murder, even with the consent of the other person - said the priest Warzeszak .

jon357 64 | 14,382    
8 Jan 2013  #9
Owsiak deserves praise for raising the topic. If someone chooses that their passing should be eased either by direct request, or if dementia is involved, in a living will, that wish should be respected.
Zibi - | 336    
8 Jan 2013  #10
I concur.
Ironside 47 | 9,492    
8 Jan 2013  #11
He is fake. So called charity and euthanasia shouldn't mix.
beckski 12 | 1,619    
8 Jan 2013  #12
Is that the same thing as assisted suicide?

Regarding my family member, "Passive Uthanasia" pertained to removal from a hospital life support system.

Can you share the details if it is not a problem?

The situation was extremely difficult for my family to cope with. My relative was a youthful 15 years of age. He had suffered a cerebral hemorrhage. After doctors had announced he had no brain activity, his parents painfully decide to remove his life supporting devices.

His parents both experienced extreme feelings of guilt, after making their final decision to take such action.They felt as though maybe they should have waited longer, by seeking additional opinions, from other specialized doctors.

My relative has now passed. However, many of his body organs were donated for human organ transplants. My family has more peace of mind now. We know many others are probably alive, because he was an organ donor. His mom told me when she sees someone with beautiful green eyes, she always thinks of him. She knows that someone else now has the precious gift of sight, because of the loss of her precious son.
goofy_the_dog    
8 Jan 2013  #13
Hmm it is a shame that just after about 70 years we have come back to this... will mankind never learn on mistakes?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_T4

In opinions of some on this forum, I gather that POles are becoming increasingly like Germans before the war... maybe its all to do with increasing poverty?

In my opinion, you shouldn't kill a person, even if they wish to die, you should never make it a normal process. It's all propaganda of mass media, I guess, if you think of it:

1. You get born go to schools.
2. You work and give a part of your income back to the government.
3. When you are old and ill, you stop working ( you or an retirement, etc) why should the government waste there money on keeping you alive?

It is much more efficient to make a big campaign and to tell people lies of the " mercy killing" etc to " get rid" of certain people from the society to make it much wealthier.

That so sounds like the Nazi propaganda, doesn't it?

It is a very evil practice, and leads to great extremes that will eventually come if we introduce this laws, sooner or later...

That's anyone, Christian, Muslim or atheist but with some human decency should say no to euthanasia, not for the lives of people of present, but think of your own lives, when you will old and unwanted by the nation. From what I gather, a nation is like a loving mother and as a mother she should care for you, not waiting for you to grow old and then kill you, with so called " mercy". Personally I don't want to live in a world like that...

Cheers
SeanBM 35 | 5,809    
8 Jan 2013  #14
goofy the dog:Personally I don't want to live in a world like that...

that's the funniest thing I've read this week :-)
goofy_the_dog    
8 Jan 2013  #15
Do you mean something by that, or are you just trying to troll??
Varsovian 92 | 634    
8 Jan 2013  #16
The latter, obviously.
jon357 64 | 14,382    
8 Jan 2013  #17
about 70 years

You're confusing the mass murder of hospital patients for political reasons with people who make a conscious decision that they want the last stage of their life to be dignified and brief.
SeanBM 35 | 5,809    
9 Jan 2013  #18
you gotta love PF, someone calls modern Poland pre~war Germany based on this internet forum and I get called a troll for finding it funny that the same guy who is against euthanasia saying he couldnt live in a world that allowed it.

as for the topic, I think its very much one of those issues that we all become pseudo philosiphers but when you are in on going agonizing pain, it is totally different.

If you take a look at what critera is needed to preform euthanasia in the neatherlands, you would realize it is not some Alice in wonderland Queen screaming "off with his head!" but there is no point discussing matters that people do not want to hear, better call me a troll and be content with you being right.
kondzior 8 | 938    
10 Jan 2013  #19
What's terrible about the practice as it stands now is that you can essentially starve your family members to death the moment that they can no longer speak for themselves. It's called 'allowing for natural death,' and it's where you take somebody off life support and stop giving them fluids/good til they die. It's an extraordinarily common route to take when people are receiving hospice care once they cross that threshold into dementia.
gumishu 11 | 4,897    
10 Jan 2013  #20
I think its very much one of those issues that we all become pseudo philosiphers but when you are in on going agonizing pain, it is totally different.

there is no such thing as agonizing pain if there is right treatment - the thing is modern pain relievers are expensive, there is also no such thing as Alzheimer patients wanting to end their life beacause of their disease (at least not in Poland)

Promotion of euthanasia becomes today a proof that we are a progressive, enlightened and modern. Speaking out against euthanasia is getting stronger testimony that someone is dominated by the "backward" (because religious) thinking.

However, the truth is quite different. Do supporters of euthanasia realize that their basic argument: suffering from pain man who does not want to live - is already a past, on condition that he will benefit fully from achievements of modern palliative medicine? But this care costs money. Whoever pays for it - whether it's the state or the insurance company - is from a purely economic point of view, interested only in a patient who choose a quick death, and not a patient who wants a slow death without pain, which after all for him - the patient - means a life without pain until death.

Euthanasia propaganda is based on lies and economic calculation.

fzp.salon24.pl/477368,eutanazja-klamstwo-rachunek-ekonomiczny-i-tikkun-olam

hospicefoundation.org/painmyths
jon357 64 | 14,382    
10 Jan 2013  #21
If you take a look at what critera is needed to preform euthanasia in the neatherlands, you would realize it is not some Alice in wonderland Queen screaming "off with his head!"

It's very well regulated there. Nobody is forced to stay alive if they wish to die with dignity.
gumishu 11 | 4,897    
10 Jan 2013  #22
telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8466996/Fearful-elderly-people-carry-anti-euthanasia-cards.html#
jon357 64 | 14,382    
10 Jan 2013  #23
Interesting that you've cited a press release from a pressure group that was picked up by an ultra-conservative newspaper. The Telegraph do at least say the following which rather demolishes your point:

This was a reference to the Dutch Patients' Association (NPV), which has 70,000 members of whom at least 6,000 have "living will declarations" stating that they do not want euthanasia if they are taken into hospital or a nursing home.
Other Dutch people, however, make written declarations of their "will to die

goofy_the_dog    
10 Jan 2013  #24
Just face it... it is not about "marcy" killing, the government just wants to cut off a hand that is no longer capable of working for the country...

It is much cheaper to kill a person then to actually help him on his or her final way by easing pain (which as gumishu rightly said is too expensive).

The governments are starting to perceive it's citizens like robots, when you lose an ability to work they will kill under a motto of " fake mercy"...

Euthanasia: by the Polish NHS

Cheers
gumishu 11 | 4,897    
10 Jan 2013  #25
at least say the following which rather demolishes your point:

it's enough that many people don't want to die even in case of resuscitation - and they fear their lives may be taken by the doctors to not allow euthanasia decided by the doctors
jon357 64 | 14,382    
10 Jan 2013  #26
And as the article says, many choose to carry cards. You might want to check the actual Dutch law. Despite the non-Dutch religious pressure group you strangely chose to cite, the law is very strict in the Netherlands.

But I suppose hysteria and misinformation are more interesting than boring old facts.
Ironside 47 | 9,492    
10 Jan 2013  #27
Rightly so, it is only a first step on the way to dispose of elderly by governments.
p3undone 8 | 1,135    
10 Jan 2013  #28
pawian,euthanasia because someone has become a burden is horrible.As for mercy killing,if a person who is terminal and in insufferable pain wishes to die,I don't have a problem with it.Do people want euthanasia in Poland?
jon357 64 | 14,382    
10 Jan 2013  #29
euthanasia because someone has become a burden is horrible

That isn't euthanasia. It is something very different.

Euthanasia most commonly takes the form of providing adequate relief from pain in the knowledge that the person will either remain unconscious until they die, or will not survive the side effects of the pain relief.
p3undone 8 | 1,135    
10 Jan 2013  #30
Jon357,I agree.


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