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Instrumental case in the Polish language. Am I understanding it right?


Ziemowit 13 | 3,824
24 Mar 2020 #31
but I don't know how they'd write it.

Neither do I, but I'm sure there must be a handy rule somewhere. ("Marthcie" would be my guess.)
kaprys 2 | 2,184
24 Mar 2020 #32
Ksiazka o Agacie Christie /Marcie Stuart

Marcia
O Marcii

Marsha
O Marshy

If that makes any sense.
mafketis 23 | 7,875
24 Mar 2020 #33
Marsha
O Marshy

Marsza marsza marsza!!!!

(inside US pop culture reference from a generation or so ago.....)
ForumUser
24 Mar 2020 #34
Marcia
O Marcii

Marsha
O Marshy

Yup I had a feeling dative & locative "Marsha" most probably wouldn't be "Marssze"/"Marsże" LOL (and that it would be declension as if it was spelled like"Marsza", but still with original spelling's Letter H instead of Letter Z)
kaprys 2 | 2,184
25 Mar 2020 #35
@ForumUser
Well, I'm not an expert in linguistics but 'sh' describes one sound, doesn't it?
ForumUser
25 Mar 2020 #36
Yes correct, but the English language doesn't differentiate SH like Polish language does (differentiating between Polish Ś and Polish SZ). And so basically, depending on each individual's English-language accent, some will inadvertently pronounce English SH as Polish Ś, while others will inadvertently pronounce SH as Polish SZ (Same goes for English CH inadvertently pronounced as either Polish Ć or Polish CZ, depending on individual English-language accent)

Just like in Polish language, if a prefix ends with Letter S (or a hypothetical English suffix beginning with Letter H, added onto a word that ends Letter S), then English SH will be pronounced as 2 separate letters. A couple common English prefixes are DIS- (such as the word "Disheartened") and MIS- (such as the word "Misheard"). Another English word is "Mishap", which most probably originated from the English word "Happen(ing)". To my knowledge, no English nor Polish prefix ends with Letter C (nor is there an English suffix beginning with Letter H, added onto a English word ending with Letter C or S or T...nor is there a Polish suffix beginning with Polish "Hard Z" added onto a Polish word ending Letter C or D or R or S)...hence to my knowledge, both English & Polish CHs and Polish CZ never pronounced as 2 separate letters, same with Polish RZ and SZ pronunciations when at/near end of word

English alphabet doesn't have an individual/singular letter representing Polish pronunciations Ź nor RZ/Ż, the same way Polish alphabet doesn't have an individual/singular letter representing pronunciations English "Soft G" nor English J (such as the word "Judge"). And as before, depending on each individual's English-language accent, some will inadvertently pronounce "Soft G"/English J as Polish DŹ, while others will inadvertently pronounce as Polish DŻ (although I am aware that there are some Polish prefixes ending in Letter D and maybe a couple prefixes ending Letter R...hence Polish words spelled as DŹ/DŻ/RZ will be pronounced as 2 separate letters if prefixed...but never pronounced as 2 separate letters at/near end of word)

On the other hand, English TH differentiates only between "Voiceless TH" (such as the words "Tooth"/"Teeth") and "Voiced TH" (such as the words "Smooth"/"Teethe"). And as mentioned above, if an English prefix ends with Letter T (or a hypothetical English suffix beginning with Letter H, added onto a word that ends Letter T), then English TH will pronounced as 2 separate letters. A common English prefix OUT- (such as the word "Outhouse") and not-common prefix POT- (such as the word "Pothole")
mafketis 23 | 7,875
25 Mar 2020 #37
some will inadvertently pronounce English SH as Polish Ś, while others will inadvertently pronounce SH as Polish S

No... English sh and ch are usually (always?) pronounced sz and cz in Polish... this can also be seen in the way some words are respelled.... Waszyngton finisz

it's also why some aren't, because sequences like dżinsy or czipsy violate traditional spelling rules...
ForumUser
26 Mar 2020 #38
No... English sh and ch are usually (always?) pronounced sz and cz in Polish

Depending on each person's unique English-language accent, some may inadvertently pronounce English SH (and also certain CH-spelled words, certain CI-spelled words, and certain TI- spelled words, some of which are of non-English origin...such as the words "Chef", "Machine", "Facial", "Precious", "Martian"/"Partial"...and also suffixes -NSION, -SSION, -NSURE, -SSURE, and -TION etc) more similar to Polish Ś, while others may inadvertently pronounce SH more similar to Polish SZ. Perhaps depending on which letters and/or pronunciations are immediately after the English SH/CH/CI/TI. For instance, English SH in last-letter positions are generally more likely to be inadvertently pronounced more like Polish Ś than like Polish SZ, and English SHR (Letter R being only consonant that I know of, which can be spelled & pronounced right after English SH, when it comes to words of English origin) is generally more likely to be inadvertently pronounced more like Polish SZR than like Polish ŚR

The English suffixes -NSION, -SSION and -TION generally more likely to be inadvertently pronounced more like Polish Ś...while on the other hand the suffixes -NSURE, -SSURE, -SSIONAL(LY), and -TIONAL(LY) generally more likely to be inadvertently pronounced more like Polish SZ. And similarly, the English suffix -SION generally more likely to be inadvertently pronounced more like Polish Ź...while on the other hand the suffixes -SIONAL(LY), -SUAL(LY), and -SURE generally more likely to be inadvertently pronounced more like Polish RZ/Ż

And also depending on each person's unique English-language accent, English CH (and also certain CH-pronounced words, such as English suffixes -TUAL and -TURE etc), some may inadvertently pronounce more similar to Polish Ć, while others may inadvertently pronounce more similar to Polish CZ. And also for instance, English -CH/-DGE in last-letter positions are generally more likely to be inadvertently pronounced more like Polish Ć/DŹ than like Polish CZ/DŻ. But unlike in the Polish language, English CH (when pronounced like Polish Ć/CZ) and English "Soft G" are pronounced like that only when written before vowels and in last-letter positions. In the English language, the only consonants that can be written after CH are Letters L and R, in which CH is pronounced only like English "Hard C"/Polish K (such as the words "Chlorine", "Chrome" etc) and never pronounced like Polish Ć/CZ when spelled before consonants. Also to my knowledge, both English "Soft G" and English J are also never spelled & pronounced before consonants

The English suffixes -TURE/-DURE generally more likely to be inadvertently pronounced more like Polish Ć/DŹ...while on the other hand the suffixes -TUAL(LY)/-DUAL(LY) and -TURAL(LY)/-DURAL(LY) generally more likely to be inadvertently pronounced more like Polish CZ/DŻ.

Unlike the Polish counterparts, English CH, "Soft G", English J, and SH aren't as much "vowel-restricted" in terms of spellings/pronunciations...and the Polish counterparts aren't as much "consonant-restricted". But English CI/TI pronounced as English SH most commonly written before "uh"-sounding (a.k.a."Schwa"-sounding) vowel pronunciations, such as the words "Facial", "Precious", "Martial/"Martian", etc
kaprys 2 | 2,184
26 Mar 2020 #39
@ForumUser
My previous post about 'sh' referred to your 'Marsże' ;)
ForumUser
27 Mar 2020 #40
Yup specifically the English-spelled "Marsha" is (depending on each person's individual/unique English-language accent) Polish-pronounced either "Marsza" or "Marsia". Before I just wasn't sure if Polish -HA declension (spelling-based declension), or if just went by -SZA declension but spelled with Letter H instead of Z (pronunciation-based declension). I kinda figured it's option #2, as "Marsha" not (ever!) pronounced "MARS-ha" LOL
mafketis 23 | 7,875
27 Mar 2020 #41
I really don't think so, if you look at how words with 'sh' are spelled in Polish it's always 'sz'.. can you give examples of words with 'sh' that would be polonized with ś?
ForumUser
27 Mar 2020 #42
English language doesn't differentiate between Polish spellings/pronunciations Ś/SZ, hence both pronunciations are represented in the English language using the English spelling SH (and also certain words spelled instead CH such as "Chef", "Machine" etc...as well as also other alphabetical representations, as detailed below. Perhaps the word "Machine" is generally more likely to be inadvertently pronounced more like Polish Ś than like Polish SZ). Perhaps some capitalized nouns (most of which are non-English origin) ending in -SIA, such as names of locations/regions and female given names (although most of which whose English-language pronunciations equivalent to Polish Ź/RZ/Ż - such examples being "Asia", "Malaysia", "Indonesia", "Tunisia", "Ambrosia", "Anastasia", etc). English-language pronunciation of SIA/ZIA (excluding words of non-English origin) would be most equivalent Polish "Hard S"/"Hard Z" + IJA and/or Polish "SJA"/"ZJA"(although Polish pronunciation "SJA"/"ZJA" would be best represented in English language using English spelling "SYA"/"ZYA")

The English non-suffixed suffixes -CIAL, -CIOUS, -NSION, -SSION, -TIAL, -TIAN, and -TION etc generally more likely to be inadvertently pronounced more like Polish Ś (along with the English non-suffixed suffixes -SION, generally more likely to be inadvertently pronounced more like Polish Ź). Adding one or more additional suffix endings onto those suffixes, such as -CIALLY, CIOUSLY, SSIONAL(LY), -TIALLY, -TIONAL(LY), and -SIONAL(LY) etc may inadvertently cause the final consonant pronunciations to be pronounced more strongly, hence more like Polish SZ/RZ/Ż

Now that I think about it more, perhaps the English non-suffixed suffixes -NSURE and -SSURE would be generally more likely to be inadvertently pronounced more like Polish Ś, and not as much like Polish SZ as I originally stated (along with the English non-suffixed suffix -SURE would be generally more likely to be inadvertently pronounced more like Polish Ź, and not as much like Polish RZ/Ż as I originally stated). And as I mentioned above, adding one or more additional suffix endings onto those may inadvertently cause the final consonant pronunciations to be pronounced more strongly, more like Polish SZ/RZ/Ż
mafketis 23 | 7,875
27 Mar 2020 #43
you mean maszyna? (szef in Polish is more likely a direct borrowing from French, maybe maszyna is too....)

You seem to be talking about how Polish speakers render the English phoneme /ʃ/ (or sometimes rendered as /š/ when speaking English - a topic I'm not especially interested in (since even after all these years I barely hear any difference between wieś and wiesz....)
Ziemowit 13 | 3,824
27 Mar 2020 #44
more likely to be inadvertently pronounced

Not really.
In Polish the SH sound is followed by Y and not by I. If the I is involved, then SZ "becomes" Ś.

SH is inherently connected to Y.
Ś is inherently connected to I

The S+I are pronounced differently only in words of foreign origin like in 's-ilos'
ForumUser
27 Mar 2020 #45
SIA/ZIA

Oops I also forgot the other English "I" pronunciation, like "Idaho". So sometimes English "SIA"/"ZIA" also pronounced like Polish "AJA" such as "Messiah" (most of such words also non-English origin)

SH is inherently connected to Y

English SH is not "vowel-restricted" in the "pronunciation sense", but words spelled SHI where "I" pronounced like "Polish I" are mostly non-English origin. In English language, "Polish I" pronunciation after English SH most commonly represented in English spelling as "EA", "EE", "EI", "IE", and also English-language pronunciations of certain words of non-English origin spelled with "EI", such as the words "Shear"/"Sheer"/"Shield"/"Sheik(h)" (although the word "Shied" pronounced like Polish "AJD"). Most English "SHI"-spelled words, the "I" is pronounced either "English Long I" (equivalent to Polish "AJ", such as the word "Shine") or English "Short I" (equivalent to "Polish Y", such as the word "Shin")

Same with English spelling CH pronounced like Polish Ć/CZ, and English "Soft G"/English J. Words spelled [(CH/"Soft G"/English J) + I] where "I" pronounced like "Polish I" are also mostly non-English origin, and also most commonly represented in English spelling as "EA", "EE", "EI", "IE" (although I'm not sure any words of English origin spelled English "Soft G"/English J + IE/EI)
kaprys 2 | 2,184
27 Mar 2020 #46
Well, George Washington is Jerzy Waszyngton in Polish.
ForumUser
27 Mar 2020 #47
Yup because Polish spelling "Waszyngton" matches English pronunciation of "Washington" (although the English-language pronunciation of "Washington" stresses 1st syllable, while Polish pronunciations in general stress 2nd-last syllables, except in certain words of foreign origin and/or certain suffixes). I had forgotten to also mention earlier that the English spelling SHY also at times pronounced like "Polish I", but only SHY in last-letter position (such as the word "Mushy"). The actual word itself "Shy" pronounced like Polish "AJ", including suffixed such as "Shyer"/"Shier"/"Shyest"/"Shiest". Rarely (if not, then never) is English SHY pronounced like "Polish Y", also mostly words of non-English origin. Usually English SHY either only a standalone word or an adjective derived from an English noun/word ending in -SH
Ziemowit 13 | 3,824
27 Mar 2020 #48
such as the word "Mushy"

The Y in the English word Mushy is distinctly different from either the Polish I or Y.
kaprys 2 | 2,184
27 Mar 2020 #49
@ForumUser
Not necessarilly. It's not Łoszyngton :)

(Kaprys adding her random comment in a serious discussion. ..)

I guess most Poles think of English sh as an equivalent of Polish sz.
mafketis 23 | 7,875
27 Mar 2020 #50
most Poles think of English sh as an equivalent of Polish sz

I agree...
ForumUser
27 Mar 2020 #51
The Y in the English word Mushy is distinctly different from either the Polish I or Y

Words spelled as English SHI where "I" pronounced like "Polish I" are mostly non-English origin, such as the word "Sushi". The English -SHY in last-letter position (such as the word "Mushy") pronounced like English pronoun "She", which in turn is pronounced same as "Shear"/"Sheer"/"Shield"/"Sheik(h)"/"Sushi" etc. In the English language, "Polish I" pronunciation after English SH most commonly represented in English spelling as "EA", "EE", "EI", and "IE", such as the English words shown above. The English spelling -SHY is pronounced like "Polish I" only if spelled in last-letter position
mafketis 23 | 7,875
27 Mar 2020 #52
Japanese si is definitely the same as Polish si.... so that desita is pronounced deśta (roughly)
ForumUser
27 Mar 2020 #53
It's not Łoszyngton

Uh oh, LOL yup I totally forgot about Polish W = English V and Polish Ł = English W. But North American Anglophones generally tend to pronounce the "A" in "Washington" like the "WO" in the word "Wobble", equivalent to English "AU" (such as the word "August") and/or "AW" (such as the word "Thaw")
mafketis 23 | 7,875
28 Mar 2020 #54
It depends... I'm one of those Americans who doesn't distinguish cot and caught (and I pronounce 'sorry' and 'sari' the same way...)
ForumUser
28 Mar 2020 #55
When I hear spoken Polish language, "Polish O" sounds to me like it's somewhat at midpoint between North American English pronunciations (excluding Latin American English, French-Canadian English, and "Southern Drawl" English etc pronunciations) of the words "Bone" and "Bonnet" ("Bonnet" where I live pronounced like "BAU-net"/"BAW-net"). And yup, I also can't distinguish between "Cot" and "Caught" unless they're used in sentences LOL. But otherwise as standalone words no way LOL
ForumUser
29 Mar 2020 #56
Getting back on-topic, how to say "I was a ghost on/for Halloween"? Would the word "Ghost" then be used instrumental case/declension, since it is after the infinitive "Być"? ("Byłem duchem") And is the correct preposition on/for "w Halloween" or "na Halloween"? "Byłem duchem w/na Halloween"? Or is it best to instead use the infinitive "To dress" (reflexively) and say "I dressed as a ghost on/for Halloween"? "Ubrałem się jak duch w/na Halloween"?
pawian 168 | 11,174
29 Mar 2020 #57
Byłem duchem w/na Halloween"

Funny but such a shortcut is fully correct. W means at the time of Halloween. Na suggests the event or party.

Ubrałem się jak duch w/na Halloween"?

Nope, that would mean I dressed like a ghost in English. The correct version is: Przebrałem się za ducha.
ForumUser
29 Mar 2020 #58
LOL so I take it "Ubrałem się jak duch..." is more along the lines of "I dressed myself the same way a ghost dresses itself" then? (as in "I wore same/similar clothing that a ghost wears"?)

Are there any other instrumental case (and also any locative case) infinitives other than instrumental case "Być" whose direct objects are used without preceding prepositions? Most Polish infinitives I've seen have direct objects in genitive (both affirmative and negated sentences), accusative (only affirmative sentences...negated sentences using accusative case/declension only for objects of accusative prepositions), and a few dative (both affirmative and negated)
pawian 168 | 11,174
29 Mar 2020 #59
"I dressed myself the same way a ghost dresses itself"

Yes.

Are there any other instrumental case (and also any locative case) infinitives other than instrumental case "Być"

I don`t know. This abstract linguistic theory certainly surpasses my knowledge of the language. hahaha Someone else might know, though.
Ziemowit 13 | 3,824
31 Mar 2020 #60
Are there any other instrumental case

1. Jeść (czym?) widelcem/łyżką [instrumental] (Eat with a fork/spoon).
2. Jechać/Podróżować (czym?) samochodem [instrumental] (Travel by car / in a car)
3. Śpiewać (czym?) altem/sopranem/basem.[instrumental].
4 Poslużył się (kim?) Anią, aby zrealizować swój cel [instrumental].

The locative case never stands on its own, but always needs a preposition.


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