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Anglos don't distinguish kasza from Kasia?


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
30 Dec 2009 #1
Whilst teaching Polish to English speakers has anyone run into an Anglo learner who could not distinguish the ś sound from sz? How did you deal with the problem?
Rogalski 5 | 94
30 Dec 2009 #2
Describe the position of the tongue when pronouncing the words. Or get students already familiar with phonetics :-)
Mr Grunwald 27 | 1,816
30 Dec 2009 #3
Polonius3
My dad allways said ś = Si
Sz= Szy

It's not correct but it made me see the difference :=)
lowfunk99 10 | 397
30 Dec 2009 #4
I can say them but I can't hear them. How do you learn to hear the difference.
mafketis 24 | 8,931
30 Dec 2009 #5
I can usually say them okay but I don't hear the difference (except before i or y) or unless i'm concentrating really hard when someone is saying them together.

But the functional load of the difference in connected speech is small enough that you can learn to understand everything without hearing the difference.
dagenhamdave
30 Dec 2009 #6
Yep, I've got a method. If you try to say "sh" with a wide smile, you get close to "si" - the soft one. Now purse your lips as if you were going to say the "u" in "put". Now do your "sh". That's close to the "sz".

If you're a cricket fan and you like the abstract, then "si" is a gentle little glance down to third man, and "sz" is a crisp chop down to deep point.
Moonlighting 31 | 233
30 Dec 2009 #7
So, there is a difference??? Argh.... Still many efforts to come ;-)
By the way Polonius, now that we're at it, is there a difference between "u" and "ó" ?
dagenhamdave
30 Dec 2009 #8
There is no difference at all in pronunciation between "ó" and "u", but there are associated spelling rules to learn. In fact, these two vowels cause the greatest number of orthographic errors amongst native Polish speakers.
Moonlighting 31 | 233
30 Dec 2009 #9
There is no difference at all in pronunciation between "ó" and "u", but there are associated spelling rules to learn.

Thanks. Well can you list these rules, because I couldn't find them in my grammar book. That would be something helpful. ;-)
dagenhamdave
30 Dec 2009 #10
Sorry, didn't realise I was your free personal tutor. Be grateful for what you get, and stop expecting to have everything handed to you on a plate.

However, I managed to find a section on it quite easily, so here it is, but I ain't translating it for you:

[5] 2.1. Zakres użycia litery ó:
a) jeśli wymienia się w formach fleksyjnych lub pokrewnych z samogłoską o lub e, np.
móc — mogę, lód — lodem, dróżka — droga, pióro — pierze, brzózka — brzezina;
b) w rdzeniach czasowników w formach jednokrotnych w opozycji do wielokrotnych, w których wymienia się z głoską a, np.
wrócić — wracać, skrócić — skracać, mówić — mawiać;
c) w cząstce -ów występującej jako końcówka lub część przyrostka:
- w dopełniaczu liczby mnogiej rzeczowników rodzaju męskiego, np. stołów, zeszytów, panów;
- w przyrostkach -ów, -ówna, -ówka, np. Głogów, Kraków, Wojasówna, Cząstkówna, Kucówna, biodrówka, kreskówka, kartkówka;

d) w niewielu wyrazach na początku, np.
ósemka, ósmy, ów, ówczesny, ówdzie;
e) w pewnej liczbie wyrazów, w których nie zachodzi wymiana na o lub e, a których pisownia ma uzasadnienie historyczne, np. mózg, ogólny, równanie, stróż, źródło.

UWAGA: Litera ó nie występuje nigdy na końcu wyrazu.

[6] 2.2. Zakres użycia litery u:
a) w wielu przyrostkach, np.
-uch - gnieciuch, dzieciuch
-uchna - córuchna, matuchna
-uchny - leciuchny, ładniuchny
-ula - babula
-ulek - tatulek
-uleńka - damuleńka
-ulka - brzydulka
-ulo - mężulo
-unek - malunek, pakunek
-unia - ciotunia, lalunia
-unio - dziadunio, stryjunio
-uńcia - córuńcia
-us - dzikus, lizus
-usia - córusia, matusia
-uszek - garnuszek, maluszek
-uszka - kaczuszka
-uszko - serduszko
-uś - dziadziuś, synuś
-uśki - miluśki
-utki - biedniutki, milutki;
b) w formach czasu teraźniejszego zakończonych na -uję, -ujesz, -uje, np. promuję, promujesz, promuje, gotuję, gotujesz, gotuje;
c) ponadto literę u piszemy zawsze tam, gdzie nie ma uzasadnienia pisownia ó.
UWAGA: W wyrazach zasuwka, skuwka, okuwka, zakuwka u nie należy do przyrostka, lecz do rdzenia (zasuwać, skuć, okuć, zakuć), dlatego piszemy je przez u, mimo że po tej literze występuje w (por. 2.1., punkt c).
Moonlighting 31 | 233
13 Jan 2010 #11
Wow, I just notice today that you replied to my message. Thank you very much, and sorry for the delay.
piaskowy - | 13
14 Jan 2010 #12
Wow! Don't you really hear the difference? I have never thought it could be a problem (maybe that is because I'm Polish).

"Sz" sounds a little bit like a wind blowing outside, while the "ś" sound reminds peeing, doesn't it?
lowfunk99 10 | 397
17 Jan 2010 #13
Nope, can't hear it at all. I can say it.

One has the tongue on the roof of the mouth and the other has a relaxed tongue.
enkidu 7 | 623
17 Jan 2010 #14
Thats soooo funny!
Just imagine this: "Prosię postawić szę na moim miejscu" :-D

("proszę" - please; "prosię" - a little, young pig)
SzwedwPolsce 11 | 1,595
17 Jan 2010 #15
I think quite a few say szę instead of się. But there are worse mistakes you can do.
Ania86
17 Jan 2010 #16
I think an English man would just say their /ʃ/ sound in both cases, especially as it's a sound sort of between our /sz/ and /ś/. At least I've hear my Irish professor pronounce it like that:)
SzwedwPolsce 11 | 1,595
17 Jan 2010 #17
I think quite a few say szę instead of się.

A good way to practice is to say Cieszę się, że jesteś. There you have the ci, ze, si, że, ś sounds, all in one very short sentence.

Also compare cie, szę, się and że in the sentence above.
lowfunk99 10 | 397
17 Jan 2010 #18
Just imagine this: "Prosię postawić szę na moim miejscu" :-D

("proszę" - please; "prosię" - a little, young pig)

Its funny you say this because I was walking around saying little pig instead of please.


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