History / Enemies, Strangers, Friends. Poles and Germans. [82]


I meant to ask where you see them? There are differences to be sure, but broadly Warsaw and Berlin have the same long-term goals.

History / Enemies, Strangers, Friends. Poles and Germans. [82]


Maybe B.B. can elaborate on his impression on the East German side, but I think I can confirm this for many West Germans. I doubt most West Germans could name a famous Polish author or a famous Polish piece of music.

Western European and American culture is everything here (well and Japanese in certain circles).

Part of this is probably due to the Iron curtain and could be changed in time with positive advertising. Sadly the opposite is happening right now, with mostly negative news coming from Poland.

History / Enemies, Strangers, Friends. Poles and Germans. [82]


Why would Poland and Germany have cross purposes? We want ultimately the same thing. Trade and work with each other and live in a peaceful Europe.

Off-Topic / Terms of Russian Surrender [116]

Flawless Russian logic. They can make claims based on treaties that never existed and disregard treaties they themselves signed (Helsinki, Paris, Budapest the list goes on).

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


We had this discussion before. As pointed out back then, there is no legal justification for the invasion. It was not in self-defense, nor sanctioned by the UN. As such it was an illegal war.

Putin may never stand trial because power dynamics may prevent this from happening. Does that mean that his invasion of Ukraine is legal?


It would defeat the purpose of a European army if it could not act in self-defense.

Coincidentally the UK best hope of protecting the Falklands long-term is probably an EU army given that financing the necessary fleet is increasingly beyond them. Bit that is matter after the UK rejoins.

@Bratwurst Boy


Dont mind that one bid. The stronger Poland becomes, the securer we are. I am just worried that they might end up overdoing it and thus financially ruining themselves.

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

@Kashub1410


Depends on the circumstances. If North Korea once again invades South Korea and gets repelled, then I would argue that a subsequent campaign to also liberate North Korea would be justified.

The USA deciding to invade North Korea tomorrow without provocation would be a different matter. The fat Kim has a nightmarish regime, but the international community has rules on when the use of force is justified for very good reasons.

The first war against Saddam Hussein to liberate Kuwait was of course fully justified. Just as the war in 2003 was obviously illegal due to the lack of any legal justification. That it also made things much worse for the people in Iraq and neighbouring countries is another matter. One could now point out how participation in that illegal invasion is a sign that a certain country is yet struggling to leave its' bloody imperialistic past behind it, but I digress.

Russia's invasion of Ukraine has at least made it less likely that Poland, or any European country would contemplate another military adventurer in another part of the world in the future.


What has Sweden done to Poland?

@Bratwurst Boy


True, but then again few Europeans back then would have identified with the ideals of the EU. Most had autocratic and imperialistic sympathies.

Really a shame that it took us that long to learn the lesson, but at least it stuck.

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

@Bratwurst Boy


Which was why I asked for scenarios because I could not really understand why Poland would want to use the military over the objection of other states. One of the advantages Poland enjoys over Western countries is the lack of colonial ties to other parts of the world. Unlike France or the UK it has no misconceptions of imperial grandeur and does not seem likely to engage in other military adventures. Especially now when its' military plans are (understandably) fully focused on deterrence against Russia. I suspect that if Poland agreed to join a European army, it would be interested in making sure that it would not be used on such endeavours.

Come to which I'd be interested to know if Poland also plans to build modern ammunition production chains? The war in Ukraine has reminded us how much ammunition is used up each day in modern wars and all those fancy Himars and Krabs are of little use without it.

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


We shall see. If it becomes clear that Poland - like any European country - can no longer finance a credible military deterrence on its' own then the prospect of losing the ability of waging unilateral colonial wars in other parts of the world might no longer look like such a big sacrifice.

Pragmatism will lead to the creation of a European army. Keeping the welfare and pension system afloat will be a big motivation.

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


That they did, along with Germany and other countries and history has more than vindicated that decision. The illegal invasion of Iraq is a blight on the reputation of the USA and those who participated in it, which sadly included Poland.

It is up to the member states to decide under which conditions an European army would operate. I can imagine that it would naturally act automatically in case of self-defence if a member state gets attacked, since we have already similar provisions in NATO and the EU. There will hopefully be restrictions against using it as a colonial expedition force, but who knows what the countries will come up with.


Hardly. I always made sure to include Poland and its' military future in my posts, which naturally include talks about closer military cooperation with other European countries.

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


There is hardly a project more worthy of such praise. The EU embodies all the positive political ideals that have been coined in Europe. Democracy and cooperation between states of all sizes. The EU is by its' nature the very opposite of imperialism. There is no supranation l entity in which even the smallest member has that much influence like e.g. Luxembourg has on many issues.


The EU was always a political project with the goal of a peaceful and united Europe. Which is why the argument of the Brexiteers of being "deceived" over the true nature are such nonsense.

It is matter of great pride that Germany has done a lot over the years to keep the EU working, similiarly to how the British are proud of their countries deeds during the WWs. It is not a "Franco-German project" to the extent that it includes others, all the member states have a stake in it and it has been used very effectively by smaller states to further their interests.

Trying to put the EU in a tradition with Hitler or talking about imperialistic ambitions of some member states is really devaluing the meaning of those historical experiences.

On a side note this rhetoric mirrors Putin's views on the NATO as an imperialistic American project for American hegemony. The only politician in our proximity who is still rooted in imperialistic dreams is Putin. All the others have moved on. They still make mistakes and miscalculations, but that simple fact should be easy enough to acknowledge.


What kind of scenario are you imagining? Under which circumstances would Poland want to use an army, but the other European armies would not?

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


It is not just a loaded term. It is disgusting slander of the greatest political project that has ever been undertaken. Trying to put the cooperation between democratic countries with the goal of peace and prosperity into a tradition with Hitler is intellectual dishonesty of the highest order.


The benefits as well. No more wars in Europe between European countries that are members and greater security since only a European army will be able to offer protection in the future sue to the rising costs of modern equipment.

Not to mention that I to imagine a scenario in which Poland would want to use an army on an essential issue but would be voted down by the other countries. How would that look like? An intervention in Africa?


And you think that is due to Franco-German malice and not because Poland only gained free access to Europe with its EU membership less than 2 decades ago? Competition is good and benefits the consumer. I doubt though Polish endeavour in the arms industry will pay off for Warsaw though.


Nonsense. Leaving aside that de Gaulle is usually not credited as a founding father of the EU, that he often spoke in provocative terms and that he lived in a time when this was an somewhat accurate assesment of Europe at the time (with only 6 EU members) this is not what the EU was ever about. The EU was founded by people who had survived two world wars and tyranny and who knew that close cooperation and integration were the only way to avoid a repeat of the past and to defend against future threats.

That reconciliation between France and Germany lies at the very heart of the EU should tell anyone with even a modicum of historical knowledge how absurd the comparison with Napoleon or Hitler truly is. But I suppose it is easier for many to claim that they are fighting a Fourth Reich than to admit that one simply does not like foreigners and while blaming the EU for their presence.

coe.int/en/web/about-us/founding-fathers

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


Not really. If we talk about Polands' military future, we inevitably end up with discussions about a European army.


A distinction that becomes smaller and smaller with time.

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


Not yet anyway. The tendency towards one European currency is very clear though.

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


Lets' be real here. The UK may have spent more money relative to its' GDP on defence, but that hardly a reason for complacency when it nevertheless is facing the same sort of deficites as other countries who did not reach the 2% goal.

Britain would run out of ammo in a day if it fought Russia

google.com/amp/s/dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11708161/amp/Britain-run-ammo-day-fought-Russia-Cuts-left-militarys-stores-bare.html

news.sky.com/story/treasury-signals-no-new-money-for-defence-despite-recognising-need-to-rearm-amid-ukraine-war-defence-sources-say-12804037

There were even talks about Germany having to step in for the UK in leading NATO's rapid reaction force.

Fears Britain's armed forces are too small to combat Russia as Nato chiefs ask Germany to stay in charge of 'rapid-reaction force.

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


Wishful thinking. There is a consensus amongst the Republican candidates that the USA should be less involved in European affairs and Biden is expected to get under fire in his own party if the war in Ukraine drags on, hence the pressure on Ukraine to succeed in the current offensive.

Europe got extremely lucky when Biden won the election, but the US pivot to Asia is inevitable.


Europe's future is tied to the EU. Europe can only maintain its influence and prosperity in the form of the EU. If the EU fails, then we Europeans are truly screwed and easy pickings for China and others.

That being said the EU also makes the necessary military integration easier.

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

@Bratwurst Boy


Coming back to the topic of this thread I think the economic argument for an EU is only going to become stronger with time as it becomes clear that organizing their own defense becomes more and more expensive for each individual state. Money might not seem like an issue in the face of the current Russian agression but it will become one once the necessary cuts to finance the arms purchases are revealed.

NATO wont disappear thanks to Putin but successive US administrations will be less and less willing and able to guarantee European security, especially if/when the conflict with China intensifies. The European countries will then have to make a decision. Pool their ressources together (as many of them are increasingly already doing in projects and military units) or keep Europe vulnerable.

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

Well, masively compared to what they had before. They still have a lot, but still much less than during the Cold War.

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


And the UK has to pay for the upkeep of its' nuclear weapons too from the same budget. It was both concerning and also admittedly rather gratifying to learn that both the French and British army are in no better shape than the Bundeswehr for fighting a huge conventional war.


To complete the picture, in the UK as well. Russian billionaires loved to spend their money there, and some seem to have had close ties to the Tory party. Not to mention how Russia won their first big disinformation campaign in the UK in 2016.

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

Aside from our history probably due to the same reasons other European countries have downsized their military: Lack of a nearby threat and the wiah to spend money on other issues.

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


For the record, West Germany spent more than 4% of its GDP on defence during the COld War and as a result had the strongest conventional army of all European NATO states.

We disarmed too much later on and are now no longer capable of sustaining a large war. But to be clear here, that is a mistake all Western countries except the USA made and even they massively reduced their capabilities.

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

Poland is smart to invest in its' military. But as with all good things, overdoing it can become problematic or even unhealthy.

Russia is a serious security threat for Poland that is a fact. But it is also a fact that the war in Ukraine has greatly weakened the Russian military and it while it can be rebuilt, it most likely wont regain some advantages it previously held (like the incredible amount of artillery ammunition from Soviet stock piles, which it can hardly reproduce due to the economic cost of the war). So while it is prudent for Poland to buy military hardware, it should not happen to a degree that put its' financial solvency at risk.

Russia may or may not pose a threat to Poland depending on the outcome of its' invasion of Ukraine.

The demographic decline will however certainly become a huge challenge for Poland down the line (, 1 or 2 millions or even 5m might lessen the blow but not fundamentally change it).

Buying like 700 Himars (some sources claimed even more) and the highly questionable K2 project which will cost Polands many bns might do more harm than good.

Not that I mind that, a stronger Poland means more security at a cheaper price for Germany. My concern is though whether or not this is sustainable for Poland.

Off-Topic / Terms of Russian Surrender [116]


How many defenseless civilians were murdered in Butcha alone again? 400 or 500?

Germany paid the price for its crimes. Russia will too.

Off-Topic / Terms of Russian Surrender [116]

The OP forgot an important part: Russia must extradite all suspected war criminals. At least the highest ranks and most prominent figures of the regime and who represent them in media will have to stand trial. At a later date and once Russia has changed, it can prosecute the thousands of lower ranking culprits itself.

Those terms are otherwise tough, but Russia itself would massively benefit from such an outcome. It would no longer be lead by people who exploit and plunder it. It would no longer have to squander its' ressources on imperial pretensions, nuclear arsenals and so on. Instead it could focus on improving the life of its' citizen. Indoor plumbing for all might no longer be a pipe dream under such circumstances.

Off-Topic / Serbia etc. thread 3 [436]

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Off-Topic / Serbia etc. thread 3 [436]

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UK, Ireland / Poland will be wealthier than Britain by 2030 [45]


Why should I if it is relevant to the conversation? One if the reasons why the prospect of Poland catching up to the UK is even remotely feasible is due to the Brexit and the lasting economic damage it has caused to the UK which included a loss of wealth and diminished future growth prospects.

UK, Ireland / Poland will be wealthier than Britain by 2030 [45]

The best example for the folly of Brexit and the value of the EU for Poland.

Off-Topic / Serbia etc. thread 3 [436]

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News / EU, Germany, Euros and Poland. [54]

His mother was born in Germany according to an article I've read, her parents were from Poland. He has English and German citizenship and due to his father he would have been eglible to play for the Nigerian football team. Playing for Poland was never on the table for him. He did play for English youth teams and considered playing for them though.


Many still do. In 2021 it was close to 100.000.

News / EU, Germany, Euros and Poland. [54]

If anything Jamal is half-Nigerian. He and his mother were reportedly both born in Germany.