News / Building regional alliance to stabilize Eastern Europe. [236]

@jon357


It is relevant in so far as it may explain your lack of knowledge on the conditions Turkey. I suppose the recent Turkish elections did not receive much attention in the UK?


Just because the UK joined later doesn't mean you can just start the history of the EU later.

The EU is pretty clear on this and the date of its' foundation (hint: It is not 1992)

enlargement.ec.europa.eu/enlargement-policy/6-27-members_en#:~:text=The%20organisation%20founded%20in%201957,Italy%2C%20Luxembourg%20and%20the%20Netherlands.


It wasn' and it is not. Maybe there is a fix for it, but why bother to look for it if people can understand what I write just fine?


That is such silly take. West Germany and Germany are the same entity. The most obvious aign being that "West Germany" was just unofficial nickname, while the official name was and is Federal Republic of Germany.

News / Building regional alliance to stabilize Eastern Europe. [236]

@Ironside


Again, read the article. Those are well-publicized issues. And since Germany has a large Turkish migrant population, those problems have received a lot of publicity here. Perhaps this is something that has not been of much interest in the UK?


The founding members of the EU are the Benelux, Italy, France and Germany.


And Greece has a veto against Turkey joining the EU. As does Cyprus.

Not that it matters. Turkey is not even pretending that it is trying to pass the membership criterias anymore.


Not if someone like Salvini replaces her.

@Ironside


Even though they are currently buying more fossil fuel from Russia than the other European countries combined?

energyandcleanair.org/publication/eu-imports-of-russian-fossil-fuels-in-third-year-of-invasion-surpass-financial-aid-sent-to-ukraine/

News / Building regional alliance to stabilize Eastern Europe. [236]

@jon357


Chaos is not the issue. But if most of the news outlets are directly or indirectly controlled by the government, and the state-run media is almost exclusively advertising for Erdogan, it is hard to say that those conditions are fair.

Turkish election 'free but not fair', say international observers

euronews.com/2023/05/30/turkish-election-free-but-not-fair-say-international-observers

"Erdogan received nearly 33 hours of airtime on the main state-run TV station, according to opposition members of the broadcasting watchdog, while his presidential opponent, Kemal Kilicdaroglu, received 32 minutes."


It is really not. Those countries haven't imported that much Russian fossil fuels to in absolute terms to begin with, so their embargo by themselves won't have much effect. And they lack the means to enforce an embargo via the EU. Even prolonging the sanctions is not a sure thing.


Yeah, I can see Meloni telling this to her voters. It may make you feel good to write those words, but they are far removed from reality.


It helps being a founding member of the EU.

In all seriousness, the only scenario in which a EU-membership of Turkey is remotely feasible would be one in which Erdogan's successor implements a decade-long democratic reform process and settles all territorial disputes with other European countries to the latters satisfaction. Which I don't see happening.

News / Building regional alliance to stabilize Eastern Europe. [236]

@jon357


I suggest you read up under which conditions the opposition had to contend in the last presidential election, or how Erdogan is treating the mayor of Istanbul, who is perhaps his biggest possible rival. Yeah, politics aren't dead and there are still free elections, but they are hardly what I would call fair.
And the situation is just getting worse, not better.

The EU took a calculated risk when it admitted Eastern European countries in the hope that this would encourage democratic progress in their societies. It has largely worked, but Hungary shows clearly the possible risks for the EU down the line. And Turkey is several times larger.


Relatively maybe. But far from the majority. We are talking about what? 140m out of 500m Europeans?


Well, those are the countries who have either alternative sources of energy and/or view Russia as an immediate threat to their own country. Try to look at it from the perspective of Italy. The country is still reeling from the Euro, Covid and refugee crisis, with its' public finances being stretched thin. The refusal of many Eastern European countries to show solidarity during the refugee crisis is still being remembered there. Russia is relatively far away, and the Italian peninsula is easy to defend in any case. No doubt many Italians feel solidarity with Ukraine, and Italy is still supporting Ukraine (although in relatively small quantities). But if the fighting stops in 2025, then I am pretty sure that calls to openly trade with Russia in 2-3 years will be hard to ignore for any government in Rome.

News / Building regional alliance to stabilize Eastern Europe. [236]

@jon357


We shall see. They have hit a bumpy road lately. Erdogan has a rather unique view on inflation and economy, which becomes problematic since there is no one stopping him from implementing them.

And while Turkey has potential, it is too unstable to become a member of the EU, let alone becoming the largest one.


Resuming implies that Europe ever stopped. It did'nt.

energyandcleanair.org/publication/eu-imports-of-russian-fossil-fuels-in-third-year-of-invasion-surpass-financial-aid-sent-to-ukraine/

There won't be a long-term boycott of Russian energy imports after the fighting stops.That is not my wish but simply a realistic assessment of the situation. The only countries that are fundamentally opposed to this are some of the Eastern European countries (but no all of them), the Baltic states, Scandinavia and the UK.

You don't even need to point at Germany. Countries like Italy have been pretty vocal about their desire to openly resume trade with Ukraine after the war ends.

News / Building regional alliance to stabilize Eastern Europe. [236]

@jon357


Hardly. Turkey under Erdogan has made several steps backs on its' democratic evolution. There is no prospect of them fullfilling the membership criterias. We have already enough problems with one wannabe autocrat in Hungary, we dont need another one.


I'd say the chances for that are 50/50. If Trump and Putin agree to a ceasefire that holds, then it would be logical to make an opening of NSII part of the negotiations with Russia. It is one of the few leverages we still have left that could incentive Putin to make some concessions. And realistically speaking, based on how much European countries are still importing Russian oil and gas, it is also what those countries will demand.

News / Building regional alliance to stabilize Eastern Europe. [236]

@jon357


Germany has been far more hawkish on Russia since 2015 than Turkey. Turkey has not implemented sanctions and is not - unlike all other NATO members - not on Russia's "unfriendly countries" list. And if you look at Turkey's geopolitical ambitions, Russia is far down the list of concerns for them, while Turkey's problems are far removed from Poland's. Do you see Polish soldiers fighting in Northern Syria? Or Turkish soldiers defending Vilnius?

@amiga500


I suggest to anyone believing that to read up on the foreign political history of Turkey of the last 50 or so years. Turkey has a complicated history with Russia, and there have been tensions and rivalries to be sure. But also close cooperation including the Turkish purchase of Russia S-400 systems. Russia and Turkey have often different goals in the ME, but ultimately they have usually worked out a modus vivendi. Ultimately Turkey has little reason to be concerned with Russia.They have defensible borders in the North, no territorial disputes with them (unlike with e.g. Greece, Cyprus, Syria and the Kurds) and a very healthy demographic outlook. By 2060 Turkey may have a larger population than Russia.


I suppose being a reliable partner and ally for several decadea counts ultimately very little.... .

News / Building regional alliance to stabilize Eastern Europe. [236]

Someone explain to me the logic of including Turkey into the list but not Germany. I mean seriously, Turkey is involved in geopolitical conflicts with most of its' neighbours and picked one with Israel. Conflicts on which Poland is usually supportive of the other side.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1301]

In hindsight PiS must be glad that they are out of power now. Imagine if they had to explain this mess. The country (USA) they prioritized turning their back on Europe and Warsaw, while the relations to Berlin have been strained by petty and needless arguments.

News / Sikorski doctrine - Eastern Europe under threat. Poland's foreign policy. [203]

Out of curiosity, are there any discussions in Poland about sensing soldiers in Ukraine in order to secure a possible ceasefire deal?

Off-Topic / Serbia etc. thread 3 [436]

[login to read]

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1301]

Anyone who hasn't been scared by statements from AfD politicians will hardly be affected by this. People vote for the AfD because of this kind of rhetoric, not in spite of it.

News / European News and Poland Thread - part 4 [530]

It is part of the Russian propaganda campaign. That is enough to know what it is. What you regularly quote from it just confirms it.

News / European News and Poland Thread - part 4 [530]

@Novichok


I already did. Or to be more exact, Alien did. There is nothing left to add.


There is no value in reading that garbage.

News / European News and Poland Thread - part 4 [530]

@Alien


Indeed. This is how such cases are handled. One can frame it in a cynical and inflammatory way like RT does to no ones surprise but ultimately it is just due process.

News / European News and Poland Thread - part 4 [530]

A known islam critic is hardly the kind of person one pegs for attacking a christmas market.....

News / Poland and Germany should unite, says Lech Walesa [113]

@jon357


Believe what you want. It would be nice if the names were in the brackets, then I would not have to manually add the before I insert quotes, but it is how it is. I just copy what I want to quote and put it in quote brackets. Since everyone seems to understand when he is referred to, it is not a problem I am particulary interested in solving.


You... You are aware that the Netherlands have a more urbanized population than the UK right? And that it shares a land border with Belgium, the most urbanized country in Europe, and is partof/close to the most densely populated regions in Europe? Knowing that, no one could possibly believe that the UK was in a more challenging position during Covid than the Netherlands.

While the UK is surrounded by sea (and that land border in Ireland but still).

News / Poland and Germany should unite, says Lech Walesa [113]

@jon357


I do no such thing. They are just not in the brackets when I use them.


Might ask you the same question. You came up with the idea that the UK - an island no less - was in a uniquely challenging in Europe situation during Covid due to its' population density. Like seriously. As if being densely populated was something uniquely to the UK.... .

News / Poland and Germany should unite, says Lech Walesa [113]

@jon357


Sure. If you try someone in a German court, the German system applies. If you try someone in Poland, the Polish system applies. If you want to extradite someone, you'll have to convince the court of the country in question.


The UK had also some key advantages. It is literally an island and not that densely populated. Compare that to e.g. Germany, whose population is on average older, and was neighbouring countries that had extremely high infection rates at times (AUstria, Netherlands, Czech Republic). The jury is still out how badly the UK did compared to other European countries, but there is nothing to suggest that it perform well compared to most.


We are talking about not having enough evidence to charge someone with murder. That was the initial problem with prosecuting him. That is not abusing anything.

News / Poland and Germany should unite, says Lech Walesa [113]

@jon357


Not others, just those in German courts. You can not prosecute someone in Germany if his crime has passed the statute of limitations in Germany.

Same goes for other countries.

This can go both ways. If the German who is suspected of the murder of the little girl in Portugal should ever end up in a court, the chance of convicting him will be higher in Germany because from what I have read, statutes of limitation Portugal would prevent most charges by now.


UK Covid deaths among worst of big European economies

google.com/amp/s/bbc.com/news/health-65975154.amp


That goes with adhering to the rule of law.

Besides, Poland is hardly in position to complain over slow reactions to an extradition request after allowing the NSII suspect to escape. The consequences of which will be probably felt for a long time in the legal cooperation between those two countries.

@Bratwurst Boy


Not gonna happen and with good reasons if we look at our history.

News / Poland and Germany should unite, says Lech Walesa [113]

@jon357


Sure. And there are crimes which according to international law are so heinous that jurisdiction applies universal, like crimes against humanity/genocide. Hence the trials against the IS and former Assaad loyalists in Germany. But claiming jurisdiction is one thing, whether the country in which the culprit lives extradites, is another. You need special arguments for an extradition, which weren't fullfilled.


Not necessarily. Just a consequence of the circumstances. The crime happened 20 years before there was even a chance to prosecute him. By that time, any crime but murder would have passed the statute of limitation. Which is where the difficulty in this trial was, since the circumstances could support manslaughter. Without the new found witnesses, something the prosecution had initially no knowledge, a conviction would probably not have succeesed.

News / Poland and Germany should unite, says Lech Walesa [113]

@jon357


That is how jurisdiction works. The crime happened in Germany, the culprit was German. Not to mention the connection to the service of a (former) German state. Anything else would be highly unusual.

@Bratwurst Boy


Not that it really matters given his age. But the culprit was fortunate that the crime happened in the GDR, and hence was tried according to GDR sentencing guide lines. In the FRG, murder carried/ still carries a mandatory life sentence, whereas in the GDR one could get away with 10 years. Rather bizarre considering the otherwise brutal nature of the regime if you ask me.

News / Is NORD STREAM dangerous for Poland's natural enviroment? [540]

@jon357


But only to a very, very limited degree. The evidence is irrefutable. The UK - like the USA - gave only very limited aid to Ukraine, most of which could also be used in a guerilla war. If London had had greater confidence in the Ukrainian army, they would have supplied them with heavy weapons right away, instead of waiting for 3 more months.

The UK is as you say "independent". They could have supplied Ukraine with tanks, heavy artillery, planes et al even before 2022 with no one being able to veto it. But they did not, most likely because they shared their Western allies scepticism of Ukraine's capabilities. Which is fine. But it is hardly something to brag about.


It is certainly nice to see that the UK has finally a respectable PM again.


I dont, they are just like that in posts when I quote them.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1301]

@Paulina

Didnt some of the Russian executioners end up being purged by Stalin and Chrustchev for unrelated reasons? Not very satisfactory to be sure, but some consolation perhaps?

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1301]

@Bratwurst Boy


You might wanna look up what Höcke said what he'd do if the AfD takes power. "Wohltemperierte Grausamkeiten* for a start.

@Novichok


Climate change, Putin's Russia, modernization of our economy to name a few. All of which way more challenging to our security and wealth.


None.

I mean technically the GDR executed some after show trials, but they lacked any legitimacy.

GG 102 "The death penalty is abolished."

It only took us the horrors of the 3rd Reich to realize that. Most of the civilized world took longer to understand that. And I have no doubt that the USA will one day as well.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1301]

@Bratwurst Boy


There are plenty of articles and videos about Höcke's ideology out there if you are interested.

@mafketis


Human rights are called human rights because they apply to all humans. Innocents, rapists and murderers included.

Solutions that respect our laws and values take time.

@GefreiterKania


Did that once in our history, and Germany has never fully recovered from this.

Even if I believed that the AfD could be trusted with power and knew how to solve this issue and could actually pull it off (none of which could be said with sincerety) there other policy issues are simply too damaging for Germany to make it worth it.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1301]

@Bratwurst Boy


Then I suggest you read up him. Because once you do, you may change your mind about this.

@mafketis


So they basically have the choice between indefinite incarceration without trial or returning to a country where there life is in danger. Every decent lawyer would win this case in 5 minutes in front of the Supreme Court.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1301]

For one I am a centrist (center-right) so I am not inclined to call everyone right to the left "Nazi".

How would you call Höcke?

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1301]

@Bratwurst Boy


And because people may or may not have been too harsh on Lucke back then we should now be lenient on Höcke? If someone votes for Höcke, he is not a victim of circumstances or the mean media.


But due to the AfD the CDU is unlikely to get a majority to make significant changes. They'll be forced to form a coalition with the Green party or the SPD and we can all imagine how those will water down any reform of our amigration/asylum system.

@mafketis


Sounds all nice and well in theory, but is often very difficult in practice. Countries often do not take their citizen backs, or even refuse to confirm their identity. Some countries are not considered safe for return which brings up legal hurdles for deportation.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [1301]

@Bratwurst Boy


That argument may have held some weight 10 or 5 years, when there were still doubts about the direction the AfD was heading towards and people could still feign ignorance about the nature of their politicians.

But at some point you need to call a kettle a kettle. There are plenty of information on Höcke out there. One can watch his videos, speeches and learn about his rhetoric and aims. If someone still votes for him in the full knowledge of what he is doing, he can not complain about being "insulted".


I am sure it is less than that if we talk about about people who are 100% on board with everything the AfD wants to do.

If we look at studies about the voters of the NSDAP, then we see that amongst their voters in 1932/1933, many of them may not have 100% on board with all of Hitlers' promised policies. They may not have agreed with murdering jews or starting another war. Yet they voted for him neverthess and helped him to power and in a position where he could implement those policies. That is a historical responsibility they had to live with. And it is something AfD voters may want to think about.