News / European News and Poland Thread 3 [1013]

"No one truly knows a nation until one has been inside its jails. A nation should not be judged by how it treats its highest citizens but its lowest ones."

I' ve seen enough documentaries about US prisons and how they breed violence and crime to appreciate how our work.

Off-Topic / The true causes of the current war between Russia and Ukraine [174]


And then immediately subjugated it for another 45 years. Not recognizing this is part of the Russian tragedy.


Coming from a Russian POV that is almost satire. Leaving wverything else out, Russia is currently building new statues for Stalin. They have really no right whatsoever to lecture Ukrainians about Bandera while they worship a man who is responsible for the Holodomor and other atrocities that killed millions of Ukrainians.

Off-Topic / The true causes of the current war between Russia and Ukraine [174]

@Lyzko


They would have shared that affinity with pretty much all their neighbours (sans Poland) since wars of conquest were the norm back then.

Off-Topic / The true causes of the current war between Russia and Ukraine [174]


Those countries embraced those concepts and flourished thanks to them. That some of them are backsliding is unfortunate and may prove costly to them, but the reason why they are today much better off is because they once embraced them.

Just think about the potential Russia might have had if it followed Poland's example. No corrupt elite that squanders its' wealth, no imperialistic vanity projects and imperialistic wars, just a government which ia trying to improve the life of its ' citizens. Russiana living outside of Moscow and St. Petersburg might be living today in villages with functioning roads, a somewhat functioning health-care systems and even indoor-plumbing. They would not have to worry about being sent to fight and die in Ukraine.


And here you see one of the greatest strength of Western civilization. Not only has formulated high ideals, it also tries to follow them and will be judged on the success of doing so. Which is why the conditions are constantly if slowly improving, while we see stagnant or even recessive behaviour in other countries. The newest example is Russia invading Ukraine and its' people professing views about Ukraine that were common several decades ago.

Off-Topic / The true causes of the current war between Russia and Ukraine [174]


Hardly. The Western world is not built on geography but principles like democracy, rule of law and human rights. Russia had the chance of becoming part of the West as well in the 90s, but its' elites rejected it to the great detriment of its' people.

Off-Topic / The true causes of the current war between Russia and Ukraine [174]

At least the Ukrainians still have the prospect of a better life if they manage to fend off Russia as part of the Western world.

What have Russians to look forward to? Living under the corrupt regime of Putin and his eventual successors, with a rapidly declining standard of living and no hope of improvement (to the contrary, really).

News / Unfulfilled promises by PiS [555]

I won't envy Tusk if he should manage to win the election. The challenges to Poland's economic prosperity are daunting. The demographic decline will soon become visible, and the follies of PiS will reduce his options even more.

News / Will PiS be happy if AfD wins elections in Germany? [112]


Because the US has a presidential system and the UK, Germany have a parliamentary system.

News / European News and Poland Thread 3 [1013]

@Miloslaw


Poland certainly has potential, but for that it probably needs a different government. One that is willing to broker compromises and work with others, even make sacrifices to see them fet through.

Being infuential in Europe is more than military might, that is something Russia never understood.

News / European News and Poland Thread 3 [1013]


Let us be real here. If Warsaw was ever to contemplate such a foolosh and dangerous move, the reliability of a shared anti-air system would likely be one of the less pressing concerns.

In any case I'd argue that getting the best affordable protection for its' citizen should be a higher priority than plans for invading a neighbouring country.

News / European News and Poland Thread 3 [1013]


Indeed. Especially since anti-air defence systems are incredibly expensive. Perhaps more expensive than any other modern weaponry sans aircraft carriers. If Poland joins we could cover almost all of Eastern and Central Europe.

History / Enemies, Strangers, Friends. Poles and Germans. [82]

@Ironside


And this impression is based on what exactly?


You mean when Germany bailed out Greece after it turned out that the Greeks had falsified their accounts and spent the money on vanity projects like the Olympics and generous welfare programs? At a time when e.g. the Baltic states were in favour of throwing Greece to the wolves? Yeah, that was really ruthless... .


Let us be real here. If Kiev had fallen in a couple of days, everyone would have gone back to buisness. No one would have wanted to sabotage their economy for a lost cause. Poland might have intensified their attempts to diversify their energy supply, but they would nevertheless continued to receive Russian energy for a few more years at least.

@jon357


How do you measure that? If I look at how trade has developed between those countries, I'd hardly find that justifiable.

Poland exported more to Germany in 2021 than vice versa.

oec.world/en/profile/bilateral-country/pol/partner/deu#:~:text=1995-,In%202021%2C%20Poland%20exported%20%2489.4B%20to%20Germany.,and%20Seats%20(%242.31B).

Cut down on your quotes please

History / Enemies, Strangers, Friends. Poles and Germans. [82]


Well, one could argue that the views on Russia differed, but the actual policies not as much, particulary when it came to buying Russian fossil fuels. Poland was smart enough to diversify its' ressource in the long run, but faced the same problems being cut off from Russian supplies. Both countries had the same aim in their approach towards Russia: To preserve the European peace order. Poland had the better understanding of Russia which is something German politicians need to learn from.

And Russia has now been identified as the main threat in the new national security strategy, so there is certainly a lot in common in the future.

History / Enemies, Strangers, Friends. Poles and Germans. [82]

Both countries want to live in peace in prosperity, dont want war in Europe and want to increase trade with each other. Both countries are crucial members of EU and NATO and have identified Russia's Putin as the main threat to their security. Successive governments are most likely to follow those lines.

History / Enemies, Strangers, Friends. Poles and Germans. [82]


Indeed. Leaving aside that this means that neither country is pursuing long-term goals that are detrimental to each other, it also means that both desire the same things on many issues. Which allows for greater economic dependence and cooperation on key issues like the Ukraine war.

History / Enemies, Strangers, Friends. Poles and Germans. [82]


I meant to ask where you see them? There are differences to be sure, but broadly Warsaw and Berlin have the same long-term goals.

History / Enemies, Strangers, Friends. Poles and Germans. [82]


Maybe B.B. can elaborate on his impression on the East German side, but I think I can confirm this for many West Germans. I doubt most West Germans could name a famous Polish author or a famous Polish piece of music.

Western European and American culture is everything here (well and Japanese in certain circles).

Part of this is probably due to the Iron curtain and could be changed in time with positive advertising. Sadly the opposite is happening right now, with mostly negative news coming from Poland.

History / Enemies, Strangers, Friends. Poles and Germans. [82]


Why would Poland and Germany have cross purposes? We want ultimately the same thing. Trade and work with each other and live in a peaceful Europe.

Off-Topic / Terms of Russian Surrender [116]

Flawless Russian logic. They can make claims based on treaties that never existed and disregard treaties they themselves signed (Helsinki, Paris, Budapest the list goes on).

News / European News and Poland Thread 3 [1013]

She did her duty to the last. That is something even her critics will admit about her.

In doing so she set an example and if more people wore masks, she might have saved quite a lot of lifes

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


We had this discussion before. As pointed out back then, there is no legal justification for the invasion. It was not in self-defense, nor sanctioned by the UN. As such it was an illegal war.

Putin may never stand trial because power dynamics may prevent this from happening. Does that mean that his invasion of Ukraine is legal?


It would defeat the purpose of a European army if it could not act in self-defense.

Coincidentally the UK best hope of protecting the Falklands long-term is probably an EU army given that financing the necessary fleet is increasingly beyond them. Bit that is matter after the UK rejoins.

@Bratwurst Boy


Dont mind that one bid. The stronger Poland becomes, the securer we are. I am just worried that they might end up overdoing it and thus financially ruining themselves.

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

@Kashub1410


Depends on the circumstances. If North Korea once again invades South Korea and gets repelled, then I would argue that a subsequent campaign to also liberate North Korea would be justified.

The USA deciding to invade North Korea tomorrow without provocation would be a different matter. The fat Kim has a nightmarish regime, but the international community has rules on when the use of force is justified for very good reasons.

The first war against Saddam Hussein to liberate Kuwait was of course fully justified. Just as the war in 2003 was obviously illegal due to the lack of any legal justification. That it also made things much worse for the people in Iraq and neighbouring countries is another matter. One could now point out how participation in that illegal invasion is a sign that a certain country is yet struggling to leave its' bloody imperialistic past behind it, but I digress.

Russia's invasion of Ukraine has at least made it less likely that Poland, or any European country would contemplate another military adventurer in another part of the world in the future.


What has Sweden done to Poland?

@Bratwurst Boy


True, but then again few Europeans back then would have identified with the ideals of the EU. Most had autocratic and imperialistic sympathies.

Really a shame that it took us that long to learn the lesson, but at least it stuck.

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]

@Bratwurst Boy


Which was why I asked for scenarios because I could not really understand why Poland would want to use the military over the objection of other states. One of the advantages Poland enjoys over Western countries is the lack of colonial ties to other parts of the world. Unlike France or the UK it has no misconceptions of imperial grandeur and does not seem likely to engage in other military adventures. Especially now when its' military plans are (understandably) fully focused on deterrence against Russia. I suspect that if Poland agreed to join a European army, it would be interested in making sure that it would not be used on such endeavours.

Come to which I'd be interested to know if Poland also plans to build modern ammunition production chains? The war in Ukraine has reminded us how much ammunition is used up each day in modern wars and all those fancy Himars and Krabs are of little use without it.

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


We shall see. If it becomes clear that Poland - like any European country - can no longer finance a credible military deterrence on its' own then the prospect of losing the ability of waging unilateral colonial wars in other parts of the world might no longer look like such a big sacrifice.

Pragmatism will lead to the creation of a European army. Keeping the welfare and pension system afloat will be a big motivation.

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


That they did, along with Germany and other countries and history has more than vindicated that decision. The illegal invasion of Iraq is a blight on the reputation of the USA and those who participated in it, which sadly included Poland.

It is up to the member states to decide under which conditions an European army would operate. I can imagine that it would naturally act automatically in case of self-defence if a member state gets attacked, since we have already similar provisions in NATO and the EU. There will hopefully be restrictions against using it as a colonial expedition force, but who knows what the countries will come up with.


Hardly. I always made sure to include Poland and its' military future in my posts, which naturally include talks about closer military cooperation with other European countries.

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


There is hardly a project more worthy of such praise. The EU embodies all the positive political ideals that have been coined in Europe. Democracy and cooperation between states of all sizes. The EU is by its' nature the very opposite of imperialism. There is no supranation l entity in which even the smallest member has that much influence like e.g. Luxembourg has on many issues.


The EU was always a political project with the goal of a peaceful and united Europe. Which is why the argument of the Brexiteers of being "deceived" over the true nature are such nonsense.

It is matter of great pride that Germany has done a lot over the years to keep the EU working, similiarly to how the British are proud of their countries deeds during the WWs. It is not a "Franco-German project" to the extent that it includes others, all the member states have a stake in it and it has been used very effectively by smaller states to further their interests.

Trying to put the EU in a tradition with Hitler or talking about imperialistic ambitions of some member states is really devaluing the meaning of those historical experiences.

On a side note this rhetoric mirrors Putin's views on the NATO as an imperialistic American project for American hegemony. The only politician in our proximity who is still rooted in imperialistic dreams is Putin. All the others have moved on. They still make mistakes and miscalculations, but that simple fact should be easy enough to acknowledge.


What kind of scenario are you imagining? Under which circumstances would Poland want to use an army, but the other European armies would not?

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


It is not just a loaded term. It is disgusting slander of the greatest political project that has ever been undertaken. Trying to put the cooperation between democratic countries with the goal of peace and prosperity into a tradition with Hitler is intellectual dishonesty of the highest order.


The benefits as well. No more wars in Europe between European countries that are members and greater security since only a European army will be able to offer protection in the future sue to the rising costs of modern equipment.

Not to mention that I to imagine a scenario in which Poland would want to use an army on an essential issue but would be voted down by the other countries. How would that look like? An intervention in Africa?


And you think that is due to Franco-German malice and not because Poland only gained free access to Europe with its EU membership less than 2 decades ago? Competition is good and benefits the consumer. I doubt though Polish endeavour in the arms industry will pay off for Warsaw though.


Nonsense. Leaving aside that de Gaulle is usually not credited as a founding father of the EU, that he often spoke in provocative terms and that he lived in a time when this was an somewhat accurate assesment of Europe at the time (with only 6 EU members) this is not what the EU was ever about. The EU was founded by people who had survived two world wars and tyranny and who knew that close cooperation and integration were the only way to avoid a repeat of the past and to defend against future threats.

That reconciliation between France and Germany lies at the very heart of the EU should tell anyone with even a modicum of historical knowledge how absurd the comparison with Napoleon or Hitler truly is. But I suppose it is easier for many to claim that they are fighting a Fourth Reich than to admit that one simply does not like foreigners and while blaming the EU for their presence.

coe.int/en/web/about-us/founding-fathers

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


Not really. If we talk about Polands' military future, we inevitably end up with discussions about a European army.


A distinction that becomes smaller and smaller with time.

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


Not yet anyway. The tendency towards one European currency is very clear though.

News / Poland is the new military power of Europe. [275]


Lets' be real here. The UK may have spent more money relative to its' GDP on defence, but that hardly a reason for complacency when it nevertheless is facing the same sort of deficites as other countries who did not reach the 2% goal.

Britain would run out of ammo in a day if it fought Russia

google.com/amp/s/dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11708161/amp/Britain-run-ammo-day-fought-Russia-Cuts-left-militarys-stores-bare.html

news.sky.com/story/treasury-signals-no-new-money-for-defence-despite-recognising-need-to-rearm-amid-ukraine-war-defence-sources-say-12804037

There were even talks about Germany having to step in for the UK in leading NATO's rapid reaction force.

Fears Britain's armed forces are too small to combat Russia as Nato chiefs ask Germany to stay in charge of 'rapid-reaction force.