History / Poland did reasonably well in land terms out of the postwar settlement [270]

I think it is necessary to correct common historical falsehoods, as those are frequently used to dupe the public to support new wars. For instance "appeasement" is actually a good thing. When appeasement was abandoned war was the result.

As you know there are many Polish in Ireland, so far all I have met were decent people.

History / Poland did reasonably well in land terms out of the postwar settlement [270]


For the purpose of healing these historical issues I think there should be multilingual town signs:
Mulitlingual town signs LT, BY, UA

History / Poland did reasonably well in land terms out of the postwar settlement [270]



Of course for PR reasons there was no open declaration of war by the Polish government, but their behaviour was a de-facto declaration of war:

- making their military ready,
- outrageous provocations,
- refusal to negotiate.

I am referring to the partly mobilisation of their military on on 23 March 1939 (completed on 30 August). Further Poland had refused to even negotiate over self-determination for the German city of Danzig. Further the growing Polish campaign of terror and dispossession against the one and a half million ethnic Germans under Polish rule (same for Lithuanians, Belarusians, Ukrainians, even until the 1950s public use of other languages than Polish was forbidden in Poland).

All of that escalated in March 39 because of the British/French guarantee.

FDR played also a big part in this.

bit.ly/tSWZCj

"Nine months before the outbreak of armed conflict, on 2 December 1938, Biddle told Burckhardt

'with remarkable satisfaction that the Poles were ready to wage war over Danzig. They would counter the motorized strength of the German army with agile maneuverability. 'In April,' he [Biddle] declared, 'a new crisis would break out. Not since the torpedoing of the Lusitania [in 1915] had such a religious hatred against Germany reigned in America as today! Chamberlain and Daladier [the moderate British and French leaders] would be blown away by public opinion. This was a holy war!,[21]'"

"In the West," the Ambassador told Szembek, "there are all kinds of elements openly pushing for war: the Jews, the super-capitalists, the arms dealers. Today they are all ready for a great business, because

they have found a place which can be set on fire: Danzig; and a nation that is ready to fight: Poland.

They want to do business on our backs. They are indifferent to the destruction of our country. Indeed, since everything will have to be rebuilt later on, they can profit from that as well."[30]

See also:

wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/wrsynopsis.html


LOL.
In the so-called corridor and in the area around Poznan there were no plebiscites. It was simply conquered.

Further in Działdowo (Soldau), Grudziądz (Graudenz), Chełmno (Kulm), Brodnica (Strasburg) and Toruń (Thorn) was no plebiscite even though all of these cities were clearly Old Prussian, not Polish.

In Upper Silesia was a plebiscite, when that was won by Germany the Allies took off Eastern Upper Silesia and added it to Poland.

Further let's talk about Southern Lithuania, Belarus and Western Ukraine. No plebiscite either, there areas were conquered by the Polish army and added into their state.


Check the timeline.
The first German peace offer was in early Sep 39. It included
- going back to status quo ante,
- Germany pays Poland for any war-related damages,
- Danzig is allowed to join Germany
- the railway/autobahn through the corridor (passing without interference by Polish officials)

This was rejected by Chamberlain.
THEN in Oct 39 Posen was annexed, and in November 39 Lodz was annexed - if for real or as bargaining chip - we will never know.

The next phase was after the Sitzkrieg, the occupation of Denmark, Norway, Benelux and France. Chamberlain resigned, Churchill became Prime MInister.
The new German peace offer still included an independent Polish state, but the Germans would probably not be satisfied with less than pre-1914 German borders. We will never know for sure because Churchill and Vansittart were strictly against any peace agreement with a strong Germany as result.

Only AFTER THAT British refusal the decision was made to make "old germanic Weichselland" (the remaining Generalgouvernement) a German province like Tibet or Hawaii.


That is what the victorious Allies are telling us. And they tell a lot of BS.

USA, Canada / Living in Poland - prospects for Alabama guy ... need some advice! [146]


Do whatever you LOVE to do.

Maybe you can start to learn a new sport, musical instrument, or technology.
Get acquainted with the subject of "unschooling" - this will benefit your child later a lot.

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]

Here is more about the British refusal to make peace:

rotefahne.eu/2011/12/historische-forschung-geheimakte-hess-gedankenverbrechen-im-21-jahrhundert/

The British government did not care at all about Poland. Poland could have been restored to prewar borders had the British not refused Hitler's peace offers. All the UK government at the time wanted was to destroy Germany - not just the Nazis but Germany itself.

From the article:
"We have - as Vansittart continued - "enough of offers from White Auer, Dahlerus, Goerdeler and his associates" (see document). "

History / Poland did reasonably well in land terms out of the postwar settlement [270]


Yeah, for tax reasons (and other issues).
That doesn't mean they were Polish or wanted to be Polish, especially later during the age of romantic nationalism.

And contrary to the principle of self-determination after WW1 many areas were wrongly added to Poland without plebiscite. Same as what happened to those Hungarians who were forced to join Slovakia and Romania.


I beg to differ.

WW1 was triggered by the conflict between Austria-Hungary and Serbia over the assassination of Franz Ferdinand and his wife.
Russia felt obligated to help Serbia.
Germany felt obligated to help Austria.
France had a treaty with Russia and anyway wanted revenge against Germany for 1870.
UK wanted to get rid of the emerging competitor Germany.
Turkey wanted revenge against Russia.
Everybody wanted to redraw some borders.

WW2 was essentially triggered by the British-French guarantee for Poland. This guarantee made Poland confident enough to declare war against Germany in March 1939. More on that in Poland and Britain started WW2


On the contrary, in the peace offer of Hitler to Churchill after Dunkirk 1940 an independent Polish state was part of the offer.

However, after that offer was rejected (see e.g. bbc.co.uk/history/events/churchill_decides_to_fight_on) the decision was made to change the Generalgouvernement into something like

English-Ireland,
French-Algeria,
American-Hawaii,
Russian-Kazakhstan or
Chinese-Uyghuristan.

See, there we have the five United Nations Security Council veto powers. They did/do EXACTLY THE SAME what Germany was accused of: incorporating another nation.

This double-standard is just not right.

History / Mulitlingual town signs LT, BY, UA [5]


In the Spanish part of the Basque Country there are bilingual signs (Basque and Spanish) and the Spanish part is frequently sprayed over with graffiti. I think it depends on HOW it is communicated and implemented.

The Basque wish for more independence/autonomy is regularly ignored by the Madrid government. Big issue of disrespect.


That is why I wrote at least 40% of the population for at least 200 years to prevent cluttering of a town sign.

History / Mulitlingual town signs LT, BY, UA [5]

Yes that would be great because I think it is part of the rich heritage of Europe and should not be forgotten but cherished.

Also it promotes peace and understanding when those things are acknowledged.

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]

What specifically?

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]


Not only in case of attack.

avalon.law.yale.edu/wwii/blbk19.asp

(1) The provisions of Article I will also apply in the event of any action by a European Power which clearly threatened, directly or indirectly, the independence of one of the Contracting Parties, and was of such a nature that the Party in question considered it vital to resist it with its armed forces.[/quote]

That article says basically that whenever the gov of PL (or one of the other two) "considers it vital" that its independence is threatened then they are allowed to "resist it with its armed forces."

You see what that means? Germany does not need to do anything and Poland could still claim that they "threaten their independence."

This is a blanco cheque for war.


Thank you, exactly that is what I am talking about.


Depends if in that alternate world Stalin also would have deployed massive attack forces on the western USSR borders like he did in 1941.
Maybe he wouldn't have. We will never know.

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]


For which of the statements do you want additional sources?

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]


Why not?


Poland started to mobilise on 23 March 1939.
Poland issued an ultimatum to the Senat of Danzig on 4 August 1939 to de-facto become a part of Poland.


As I explained in post #47 Hitler's actions were supposed to shock the governments of PL and UK into negotiations. If UK and PL had wanted peace they would have gotten it.

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]


Correction, you mean: Get back German inhabited lands by peaceful means.

Ever heard the term "self-determination"? That was supposed to be the goal of the Treaty of Versailles, only that it did not apply for the Germans in the western border regions of the 2nd Polish Republic, South Tyrol, Bohemia (Sudetenland), Memel, Danzig, Alsace-Lorraine or Eupen-Malmedy.


LOL
So wrong. That is the story the Allies tried to pitch with the propaganda trials at Nuremberg.


The British-French guarantee of March 1939 actually made the war happen by fostering an unsustainable Polish stance.


Stalin attacked Poland and Finland because he saw the opportunity. The US media were running much more favourable stories about the USSR than about NS-Germany. Also he knew that the Polish-British-French alliance was outnumbered by far by the Red Army.


Nope, that part of the story is pure BS.
There was no "master plan for world domination".

The chain of events proves it. Even after the war started there were continuous requests by the German side to end the war by negotiations, all rejected by the Allies with demands of "unconditional surrender".

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]


I don't ignore that. There was an order issued on 23 August to begin attack on 26 August. This was an obvious attempt to force Poland and Britain to negotiate.

The Ostwall (fortifications on the eastern German border) was continued to be built until 1940
ww2museums.com/article/5393/Ostwall---Panzerwerk-A8-West.htm

If Hitler had wanted to conquer Poland there would have been no need to start building fortifications on the eastern borders (started 1934, continued until 1940).

Hitler knew that many inside the German military were against him so there was a high probability that information about the attack order would be transmitted to the British. The goal was to shock Britain and Poland enough for serious negotiations. The same goal was supposed to be reached by the German-Soviet Pact.

However, neither Poland nor Britain tried anything to prevent the war.

Instead, Poland mobilises its army, forcing a German preemptive strike because Poland and France (bound by military assistance treaty with Poland and Britain) together were by far stronger than the Germans.

History / Poland did reasonably well in land terms out of the postwar settlement [270]


Do you mean because of an overwhelming "yes" or an overwhelming "no"?

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]


That link provides a funny bonmot:


Hahaha, acquiring Poland? If Hitler would have wanted war he would have made unreasonable demands, such as "give Posen back" or some such. It would still have been reasonable to demand all lands near the border from Poland where Germans were the majority, or demand eastern upper Silesia. He did nothing of that. He even could wait until the Danzig problem resolves itself over time.

However, he could not sit idle when there is an alliance between France, UK and Poland and the aggressive Polish state has a fully mobilized army on the borders. Even then he waited more than 48 hours before he gave the order to move the Polish army away from the borders.


What about Dr. David L.Hoggan and his book "The forced war"?

How come you are amazed? This topic is not a neutral topic but a VERY emotional one. Also the power of the Allies over Germany is at stake. OF COURSE the establishment court historians do not do their job properly, because if they would they would get into trouble.

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]

The official census 1923 found that 95% of the city were Germans. The election put a majority of national socialists in the local parliament, so the Senat of Danzig was headed by NS personnel.

Are you talking about the province of Pomerelia or the "Free" City of Danzig?

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]


We were talking about the British ultimatum. Usually when there is an outbreak of hostilities the first step is a ceasefire. The retreat comes after a negotiated solution. The war broke out because of a threatening fully mobilized Polish army on the German borders. Nothing had changed so far.

Either way, the Polish government was confident that they could handle the "weak huns".

So, you agree to the claim that there never was a peace or negotiation (or later a ceasefire) offer from either London or Warsaw after March 1939?


It is questionable if there ever was an incident at the Sender Gleiwitz. And if there was an incident, who initiated it. Was it a rogue SS action or did Naujocks invent the story when he defected in 1944?

Anyway, neither Hitler nor another NS bigwig ever mentioned it.

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]

That is not a peace offer. That is an ultimatum.
An unacceptable ultimatum. Only the German army should retreat but not the Polish one? Totally unacceptable double-standard.

No, it the Brits had wanted peace they would have pressured the Polish government to accept the extremely modest German proposals.

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]

From above link:


Absurd. Are Switzerland, Austria or Hungary under German rule because they have no access to the sea?
What about the mistreated 2 or so million Germans that were under Polish rule. Not to speak of the Belarussians and Ukrainians.


That "document" about the meeting in the Reichschancellery on 23 May 1939, the so-called "Schmundt-Protokoll" is a fraud by the Allies (ALL LIES they should better be called). This piece of paper was created by the Allies for the tribunal in Nuremberg. It states "Headmatter. Only By Officer" but it does not have letterhead, date, no 'secret' sign and was not entered into the secret journal as it should be if it were a "Headmatter. Only By Officer".

No, the war was started because the Polish army were fully mobilized and standing on the German borders, ready to attack together with France.


Source please.
Who offered it?
The Polish ambassador? Britain?


That pact was made to isolate Poland, to persuade Beck and Rydz-Śmigły to accept some rationality. Didn't work though.


Superfluous namecalling disposed.

ladykangaroo
Poland and Britain started WW2

I was not talking about Pomerelia or Kashubia. I was just referring to Danzig, and in Danzig the overwhelming majority of the people wanted nothing to do with Poland.

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]


Did your family live there before 1945?
If yes, isn't it true that non-Germans were a tiny tiny minority there?

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]


Nope, the proposal was that the port remains free for Polish ships.
And Poland had already another port in Gdynia/Gdingen.
And Danzig was a German city anyway, the people there wanted nothing to do with Poland.


Well, Germany was split in two because of the unjust situation.
And that because of a territory for which Poland had no legitimate right whatsoever (except the "might makes right").

Polish police was harassing German travelers, therefore it had to be extraterritorial.
There is nothing special about that, for instance trains between West Berlin and Western Germany through East Germany were de-facto extraterritorial.


Not fight but be strong and prevent fight.
Hitler wanted a strong Poland to be a bulwark against "the Bolshevik masses".


Of course there weren't any, because Poland explicitly forbid it. Any mention of the topic by Germany would be treated by Poland as an act of war.


The non-aggression agreement was de-facto terminated by Poland already (by acting aggressively). Hitler only spelled it out.

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]


Really none are true?
Ok, here is what I could find in neutral sources for some of my claims:


google.ie/webhp?rlz=1C1IRFD_enIE417IE417&sourceid=chrome-instant&ix=sea&ie=UTF-8&ion=1#hl=en&rlz=1C1IRFD_enIE417IE417&tbm=bks&sclient=psy-ab&q=poland+mobilisation+23+march+1939


google.ie/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=poland+ultimatum+danzig+august+1939&btnG=


google.ie/webhp?rlz=1C1IRFD_enIE417IE417&sourceid=chrome-instant&ix=sea&ie=UTF-8&ion=1#hl=en&rlz=1C1IRFD_enIE417IE417&tbm=bks&sclient=psy-ab&q=poland+mobilisation+30+august+1939&pbx=1&oq=poland+mobilisation+30+august+1939&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=3& gs_upl=78528l80562l0l80739l9l9l0l0l0l0l76l628l9l9l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=4c8251637adca4d7&biw=1280&bih=923&ix=sea&ion=1


If you don't believe that then find me only ONE peace or negotiation offer from London or Warsaw after March 1939.
I bet you cannot find ONE.

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]


You did not address any points. Just name calling. That's it?

And because someone is jailed as a political dissident does not make him a criminal.

BTW, did you know that many Polish Jews preferred to live in Hitler's Germany than in Rydz-Śmigły's Poland.
That should tell you something.


"We never thought of making a separate peace even in the years when we were all alone and could easily have made one without serious loss to the British Empire and largely at your expense." -- Churchill letter to Joseph Stalin, 24th January, 1944

sweetliberty.org/issues/wars/witness2history/12.html

Yes, the Polish army was a threat to Germany because of the French and British guarantee which would have led to a two-front war (Poland and France).

And do you know why Germany could at first easily overrun both the Polish and then the Soviet armies?
Because both armies were in attack mode, they were not prepared for defense.
Both Poland and then the USSR wanted to attack Germany, therefore Hitler was forced to preempt them.

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]


Udo Walendy, "Truth for Germany: the guilt question of the Second World War" is quite comprehensive and lists all the sources.