Posts by DougTales

DougTales

29 Apr 2012

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]

Here is more about the British refusal to make peace:

rotefahne.eu/2011/12/historische-forschung-geheimakte-hess-gedankenverbrechen-im-21-jahrhundert/

The British government did not care at all about Poland. Poland could have been restored to prewar borders had the British not refused Hitler's peace offers. All the UK government at the time wanted was to destroy Germany - not just the Nazis but Germany itself.

From the article:
"We have - as Vansittart continued - "enough of offers from White Auer, Dahlerus, Goerdeler and his associates" (see document). "

DougTales

18 Mar 2012

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]

What specifically?

DougTales

18 Mar 2012

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]

the thing you completely miss is that tripartite Polish-British-French guarantees were purely defensive - it meant that if one of the countries would be attacked by Hitler all other will join the war and help the attacked

Not only in case of attack.

avalon.law.yale.edu/wwii/blbk19.asp

(1) The provisions of Article I will also apply in the event of any action by a European Power which clearly threatened, directly or indirectly, the independence of one of the Contracting Parties, and was of such a nature that the Party in question considered it vital to resist it with its armed forces.[/quote]

That article says basically that whenever the gov of PL (or one of the other two) "considers it vital" that its independence is threatened then they are allowed to "resist it with its armed forces."

You see what that means? Germany does not need to do anything and Poland could still claim that they "threaten their independence."

This is a blanco cheque for war.

Poland could have avoided war with Germany even as late as early 1939 by joining up with Hitler - this is what Hitler wanted - up to the moment that he realized Polish rulers will be loyal to their military pact with France (from that point detailed plans for war with Poland started to be drawn)
could Poland have avoided the war in the days leading up to September - I think it is possible still - the demands Hitler gave were pretty symbolic and didn't touch any strategic Polish interests - it was actually a stick and a carrot offering by Hitler - Hitler still counted that Poland switches alliances but being a bit humiliated by Poles wanted some symbolic punishment on Poles

so I guess if Poland abandoned her western allies in the early to middle August and went for reconciliation, cooperation and then an alliance with Germany there wouldn't have been war with Germany in 1939

Thank you, exactly that is what I am talking about.

- the World War would break out anyway - with Hitler and Poland attacking the Soviet Union jointly (most probably with the assistance of Romania and several other countries (Hungary, Slovakia perhaps Bulgaria)

Depends if in that alternate world Stalin also would have deployed massive attack forces on the western USSR borders like he did in 1941.
Maybe he wouldn't have. We will never know.

DougTales

18 Mar 2012

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]

Do any other sources corroborate what the op has stated?

For which of the statements do you want additional sources?

DougTales

18 Mar 2012

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]

if you are an agressive side you don;t fully mobilize on the day before the planned invasion - no?

Why not?

- Germans were mobilizing weeks before the September the1st

Poland started to mobilise on 23 March 1939.
Poland issued an ultimatum to the Senat of Danzig on 4 August 1939 to de-facto become a part of Poland.

and they even planned to strike earlier on 26th of August - the only reason they didn't was because the Polish-British treaty in case of war with Germany was signed that mandated Great Britain to declare war on Germany in case it attacks Poland - Hitler hestitated for a moment and thats why the attack was postponed

As I explained in post #47 Hitler's actions were supposed to shock the governments of PL and UK into negotiations. If UK and PL had wanted peace they would have gotten it.

DougTales

18 Mar 2012

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]

Fact that Nazi Germany wanted to gain territory

Correction, you mean: Get back German inhabited lands by peaceful means.

Ever heard the term "self-determination"? That was supposed to be the goal of the Treaty of Versailles, only that it did not apply for the Germans in the western border regions of the 2nd Polish Republic, South Tyrol, Bohemia (Sudetenland), Memel, Danzig, Alsace-Lorraine or Eupen-Malmedy.

and to destroy everything that was not of aerian race.

LOL
So wrong. That is the story the Allies tried to pitch with the propaganda trials at Nuremberg.

Germany never declared war on Britain, but France and Britain declared war on Germany for attacking Poland.

The British-French guarantee of March 1939 actually made the war happen by fostering an unsustainable Polish stance.

The Soviets also attacked Poland from the East because of their pact with Germany.

Stalin attacked Poland and Finland because he saw the opportunity. The US media were running much more favourable stories about the USSR than about NS-Germany. Also he knew that the Polish-British-French alliance was outnumbered by far by the Red Army.

? If Jerry had delayed their master plan for world domination by 4 years those that are left would be spricht the Deutsche by now!

Nope, that part of the story is pure BS.
There was no "master plan for world domination".

The chain of events proves it. Even after the war started there were continuous requests by the German side to end the war by negotiations, all rejected by the Allies with demands of "unconditional surrender".

DougTales

18 Mar 2012

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]

I note that you are pointedly ignoring the problem presented to your theory by the Jabłonków Incident (full details here). This shows that you know the decision to attack Poland had been taken before the Polish army mobilised.

I don't ignore that. There was an order issued on 23 August to begin attack on 26 August. This was an obvious attempt to force Poland and Britain to negotiate.

The Ostwall (fortifications on the eastern German border) was continued to be built until 1940
ww2museums.com/article/5393/Ostwall---Panzerwerk-A8-West.htm

If Hitler had wanted to conquer Poland there would have been no need to start building fortifications on the eastern borders (started 1934, continued until 1940).

Hitler knew that many inside the German military were against him so there was a high probability that information about the attack order would be transmitted to the British. The goal was to shock Britain and Poland enough for serious negotiations. The same goal was supposed to be reached by the German-Soviet Pact.

However, neither Poland nor Britain tried anything to prevent the war.

Instead, Poland mobilises its army, forcing a German preemptive strike because Poland and France (bound by military assistance treaty with Poland and Britain) together were by far stronger than the Germans.

DougTales

21 Feb 2012

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]

I hate people that try to stir the **** because they have access to the internet.

history1900s.about.com/od/worldwarii/a/wwiistarts.htm

That link provides a funny bonmot:

"After having gained both Austria and Czechoslovakia, Hitler was confident that he could again move east, this time acquiring Poland without having to fight Britain or France."

Hahaha, acquiring Poland? If Hitler would have wanted war he would have made unreasonable demands, such as "give Posen back" or some such. It would still have been reasonable to demand all lands near the border from Poland where Germans were the majority, or demand eastern upper Silesia. He did nothing of that. He even could wait until the Danzig problem resolves itself over time.

However, he could not sit idle when there is an alliance between France, UK and Poland and the aggressive Polish state has a fully mobilized army on the borders. Even then he waited more than 48 hours before he gave the order to move the Polish army away from the borders.

I'm quite amazed that as this is THE most studied period in modern history, no respected historian has yet discovered this bombshell.

What about Dr. David L.Hoggan and his book "The forced war"?

How come you are amazed? This topic is not a neutral topic but a VERY emotional one. Also the power of the Allies over Germany is at stake. OF COURSE the establishment court historians do not do their job properly, because if they would they would get into trouble.

DougTales

21 Feb 2012

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]

The official census 1923 found that 95% of the city were Germans. The election put a majority of national socialists in the local parliament, so the Senat of Danzig was headed by NS personnel.

Are you talking about the province of Pomerelia or the "Free" City of Danzig?

DougTales

21 Feb 2012

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]

Could you perhaps go into detail about the parts of Germany which the Polish army was occupying?

We were talking about the British ultimatum. Usually when there is an outbreak of hostilities the first step is a ceasefire. The retreat comes after a negotiated solution. The war broke out because of a threatening fully mobilized Polish army on the German borders. Nothing had changed so far.

Either way, the Polish government was confident that they could handle the "weak huns".

So, you agree to the claim that there never was a peace or negotiation (or later a ceasefire) offer from either London or Warsaw after March 1939?

Apart, of course, from Sender Gleiwitz.

It is questionable if there ever was an incident at the Sender Gleiwitz. And if there was an incident, who initiated it. Was it a rogue SS action or did Naujocks invent the story when he defected in 1944?

Anyway, neither Hitler nor another NS bigwig ever mentioned it.

DougTales

21 Feb 2012

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]

That is not a peace offer. That is an ultimatum.
An unacceptable ultimatum. Only the German army should retreat but not the Polish one? Totally unacceptable double-standard.

No, it the Brits had wanted peace they would have pressured the Polish government to accept the extremely modest German proposals.

DougTales

21 Feb 2012

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]

From above link:

"Furthermore, even a narrow German corridor through Polish Corridor would mean putting Polish people under German rule"

Absurd. Are Switzerland, Austria or Hungary under German rule because they have no access to the sea?
What about the mistreated 2 or so million Germans that were under Polish rule. Not to speak of the Belarussians and Ukrainians.

"In the meeting at the Reichschancellery on 23 May 1939, Hitler made it quite clear, and so stated, that Danzig had nothing to do with the real Polish question. "I have to deal with Poland because I want lebensraum in the East"- that is the effect of Hitler's words at that time: that Danzig was merely an excuse."

That "document" about the meeting in the Reichschancellery on 23 May 1939, the so-called "Schmundt-Protokoll" is a fraud by the Allies (ALL LIES they should better be called). This piece of paper was created by the Allies for the tribunal in Nuremberg. It states "Headmatter. Only By Officer" but it does not have letterhead, date, no 'secret' sign and was not entered into the secret journal as it should be if it were a "Headmatter. Only By Officer".

No, the war was started because the Polish army were fully mobilized and standing on the German borders, ready to attack together with France.

One pretty obvious offer. 2 September 1939 - undertake by 11 o'clock to cease hostilities.

Source please.
Who offered it?
The Polish ambassador? Britain?

You might also want to check out the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

That pact was made to isolate Poland, to persuade Beck and Rydz-Śmigły to accept some rationality. Didn't work though.

...

Superfluous namecalling disposed.

ladykangaroo
Poland and Britain started WW2

I was not talking about Pomerelia or Kashubia. I was just referring to Danzig, and in Danzig the overwhelming majority of the people wanted nothing to do with Poland.

DougTales

21 Feb 2012

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]

That's actually my (and my family) city and the above only further proves the point that you have no idea what you are writing about.

Did your family live there before 1945?
If yes, isn't it true that non-Germans were a tiny tiny minority there?

DougTales

21 Feb 2012

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]

Live together as in:
- we are taking over one of the main ports on your coast

Nope, the proposal was that the port remains free for Polish ships.
And Poland had already another port in Gdynia/Gdingen.
And Danzig was a German city anyway, the people there wanted nothing to do with Poland.

and in exchange
- you will allow for a country to be split in two by exterritorial highway and rail track

Well, Germany was split in two because of the unjust situation.
And that because of a territory for which Poland had no legitimate right whatsoever (except the "might makes right").

Polish police was harassing German travelers, therefore it had to be extraterritorial.
There is nothing special about that, for instance trains between West Berlin and Western Germany through East Germany were de-facto extraterritorial.

- you will fight ZSRR commies with us?

Not fight but be strong and prevent fight.
Hitler wanted a strong Poland to be a bulwark against "the Bolshevik masses".

Last time I checked after Beck's proposal issued in March 1939 there were no further negotiations.

Of course there weren't any, because Poland explicitly forbid it. Any mention of the topic by Germany would be treated by Poland as an act of war.

Unless of course Germany terminating in April the non-agression agreement from 1934 (and Fall Weiss) can be called "negotiations"... I'm sure in Walendy's mind it can.

The non-aggression agreement was de-facto terminated by Poland already (by acting aggressively). Hitler only spelled it out.

DougTales

21 Feb 2012

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]

These are not 'facts', just trolling. None are true.

Really none are true?
Ok, here is what I could find in neutral sources for some of my claims:

- Poland unnecessarily partly mobilized their military on 23 March 1939

google.ie/webhp?rlz=1C1IRFD_enIE417IE417&sourceid=chrome-instant&ix=sea&ie=UTF-8&ion=1#hl=en&rlz=1C1IRFD_enIE417IE417&tbm=bks&sclient=psy-ab&q=poland+mobilisation+23+march+1939

- Poland put an ultimatum to Danzig to allow it to be occupied by Polish police forces

google.ie/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=poland+ultimatum+danzig+august+1939&btnG=

- Poland fully mobilized their troops on 30 August

google.ie/webhp?rlz=1C1IRFD_enIE417IE417&sourceid=chrome-instant&ix=sea&ie=UTF-8&ion=1#hl=en&rlz=1C1IRFD_enIE417IE417&tbm=bks&sclient=psy-ab&q=poland+mobilisation+30+august+1939&pbx=1&oq=poland+mobilisation+30+august+1939&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=3& gs_upl=78528l80562l0l80739l9l9l0l0l0l0l76l628l9l9l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=4c8251637adca4d7&biw=1280&bih=923&ix=sea&ion=1

- all offers to ease the situation and to find a negotiated way to live together came from Berlin. NONE came from London or Warsaw.

If you don't believe that then find me only ONE peace or negotiation offer from London or Warsaw after March 1939.
I bet you cannot find ONE.

DougTales

21 Feb 2012

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]

DougTales: Udo Walendy, A convicted criminal and holocaust denier.

You did not address any points. Just name calling. That's it?

And because someone is jailed as a political dissident does not make him a criminal.

BTW, did you know that many Polish Jews preferred to live in Hitler's Germany than in Rydz-Śmigły's Poland.
That should tell you something.

We were so big treat to Germany that they need to end almost in Moscow, London and Giza :D

"We never thought of making a separate peace even in the years when we were all alone and could easily have made one without serious loss to the British Empire and largely at your expense." -- Churchill letter to Joseph Stalin, 24th January, 1944

sweetliberty.org/issues/wars/witness2history/12.html

Yes, the Polish army was a threat to Germany because of the French and British guarantee which would have led to a two-front war (Poland and France).

And do you know why Germany could at first easily overrun both the Polish and then the Soviet armies?
Because both armies were in attack mode, they were not prepared for defense.
Both Poland and then the USSR wanted to attack Germany, therefore Hitler was forced to preempt them.

DougTales

21 Feb 2012

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]

Your source?

Udo Walendy, "Truth for Germany: the guilt question of the Second World War" is quite comprehensive and lists all the sources.

DougTales

21 Feb 2012

History / Poland and Britain started WW2 [307]

Recently I found out that actually the governments of Poland and Britain started what became WW2. I'm pretty upset about this, so please don't take it personally if anything I write appears to be offensive to you.

Peace and friendship.

Hitler was forced to defend Germany from Polish aggression.

Facts:
- Poland wanted the war to get East Prussia, Danzig and all land east of the Oder
- They believed that in case of war there would be a revolutionary breakdown in Germany and they could easily march to Berlin
- Poland openly threatened Germany with war if it would act in the interest of the people of Danzig
- Poland unnecessarily partly mobilized their military on 23 March 1939
- Poland stole land from its German minority by land reform law 1938 and border land law 1939
- Poland put their troops close to the German-Polish border
- their operation plan was to march to Berlin, i.e. they were in attack mode, not defense mode
- Poland put an ultimatum to Danzig to allow it to be occupied by Polish police forces
- Poland fully mobilized their troops on 30 August
- all offers to ease the situation and to find a negotiated way to live together came from Berlin. NONE came from London or Warsaw.
- all offers were rejected by the Warsaw government
- more than 48 hours AFTER the Polish general mobilization Hitler gave the order push back the Polish troops close to the border because a Polish attack was imminent.

Even afterwards a full out war could have been prevented if Britain had not rejected any peaceful outcome.